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Originally Posted By: The Pook

There has been an alarming increase of late in the number of things I know absolutely nothing about!


No. There has been an alarming increase of late in the number of things that you know you know absolutely nothing about. This is a net increase of knowledge on your part, if that's any comfort.

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Originally Posted By: Faldage
No. There has been an alarming increase of late in the number of things that you know you know absolutely nothing about. This is a net increase of knowledge on your part, if that's any comfort.

It's kinda scary that I actually understood that the first time through.... ;0)

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Originally Posted By: Faldage
Originally Posted By: LukeJavan8


And Hanukkah is found in the Bible, the Bible still used by Catholics and Orthodox,
before Luther threw out the Books of Macabbees. This is 2000 years vs. the 500 since
the Reformation.


Way I heard it, and as I said in a later post I only have it by hearsay, that while the events around which Hanukkah is based might be found in the Bible, Hanukkah itself is not a holiday mandated by God as the other Jewish holidays are. Similarly, the events around which the major Christian holidays are based, to my knowledge, are not mandated by God as holidays. I can see, for example, the Eucharist as a ritual but not the celebration of Maundy Thursday as a holiday. While the date of the Resurrection can be calculated based on the dates of Passover I don't see anything that states it should be celebrated as a holiday. Perhaps, PastorVon, if he isn't ignoring me, could enlighten me. The dating of the Nativity is, of course, quite controversial. I've heard that the fact that the shepherds were tending there flocks means that it was in the spring and James Tabor, the author of The Jesus Dynasty, has said that he thinks it was in September, IIRC.


Sorry, I don't monitor the AWAD blogs every day. IF I'm going to part of them, I guess that I may have to do that. But, as I said, on signing on, I've got too many irons in the fire right now.

I wasn't even going to check you all out today. I'm scheduled for outpatient surgery in about three hours and there are a number of things I have to do here at home before I leave for the doctor's in about two and a half hours. I'm to have a phlebectomy -- a radio frequency ablation of the Saphenous Veins in my left leg (to be repeated in my right leg the next Monday.)

The Tasmanian Pook has addressed the issues of your implied question already. There is no one view in common about the so-called holy days (or holidays) of Christianity. There is a sharp divide between Orthodox (eastern) and Catholic (western) churches. Then there is a sharp divide between Roman Catholics and Protestant Catholics. And there's a spectrum of practice or belief even within Protestant Catholicism.

I, for one, a Calvinist or Reformed Presbyterian, believe that the Bible mandates the observation of Sunday alone as a Christian Sabbath. All the other so-called holy days (holidays) or the imaginations and inventions of men and are accretions not mandated in the Bible and are NOT to be observed. [Public peer pressure however is tremendous and many American churches and denominations gradually or incrementally add "customs." At another time, I could pick this up; but not today.]

Yes, the approximate date of Jesus' crucifixion can be calculated; but since no one knows exactly for sure which year in the A.D. calendar it occurred it is impossible to come up with a set date, as had arbitrarily done for so-called Christmas.

The Eastern (Orthodox) churches set a observation date based on the Jewish calendar (or the 14th of Nisan); the Western churches follow an old formula of convenience that the Resurrection of Christ should be observed each year on the first Sunday after the first full moon after the Spring equinox. I think I stated that correctly. That means that Easter (so-called) can be observe early in March or late in April.

As for the so-called Protestant feast days that are celebrated on Sundays and other special days of the year -- the so-called liturgical year -- {Please excuse my frequent use of so-called) -- the liturgical year is partially a matter of convenience.

Today there are three cycles of the liturgical church year. It was an arbitrarily chosen artificial means to assure that churches that use or follow the liturgical year would cover the range of the teaching of the Bible thoroughly each year and comprehensively every three years. I'll send you all a URL where you can see the arrangement.

I don't normally follow the liturgical year; but this year a group of fellow ministers agreed to assist one another in sermon preparation -- to meet together regularly to study the Scriptures in order to preach better sermons. We decided to use the revised liturgical year as a guide. That way we would all be on the same page Sunday after SUnday. This past Sunday, I preached on Matthew 2:1-12. The name for this Sunday was the first Sunday after Epiphany.

This shows the arbitrary character of the liturgical year. When did the magi (or wise men) visit Jesus. Within two years or so after his birth. [An aside -- in Christmas pageants held round the world, the star also is included in the Shepherd scenes; but in the Bible it is only mentiuoned in reference to the magi. That's innocent and harmless accretion.]

Well, according to this year's calendar, Ephipany fell in the middle of the week. We don't have "Sunday" worship in the middle of the week. Therefore, I preached on the Epiphany passage on the third Sunday after Advent or the first Sunday after Epiphany [It can be called both of those names.]

Now, follow me. This next Sunday is both the fourth SUnday after Advent and the second Sunday after Epiphany. The Scripture texts of the gospel to be preached is on the Baptism of Jesus.

Well, now, Jesus was only about two years old or so when the magi visited him and that is observed on January 11th. And, then, the baptism of Jesus, which took place when he was about 30 years old, is observed on January 18th.

By the way: Advent means "coming." Advent is tied to Christmas but the content of the sermons around Advent refer not only to Christ's first coming, his birth, but also his second coming, in judgment at the end of the world age whenever that is to be.

Epiphany means "manifestation."

You see, except for the notices to Zacharias, Elizabeth, Mary, Joseph, the Shepherds, Simeon, and Anna, the world took little notice of Jesus at his birth. However, the visit of the magi to Jerusalem stirred things up. The politicos [Herod the Great, in particular -- see Matthew 2] of the world came to be aware of him, were troubled by his coming, and sought to eliminate him. Hence, His manifestation, i.e., the epiphany of Jesus.

O.K. Still following. In less than three months the church year will mark the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. And the liturgical year reminds us to do this every year and addresses the set days by using the various different Scripture passages that speak to these events in order that the full gospel story will be present to a congregation every year.

The liturgical year is a tool that men have devised to be helpful. It is not mandated by the Bible.

SOme of the denominational arguments about the church year have come about because some of the powers that be have tried to make the observation of the church year mandatory, including the clothing that a minister should wear or the color of the cloth on the pulpit desk. You all need to read Ian Murray's anthology on the Reformation of the Church.

I've got to go, people. I've been too verbose as it is. But, hope this helps.

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There is a sharp divide between Orthodox (eastern) and Catholic (western) churches.

I've been reading a book The Councils of the Church: A Short History by Norman Tanner. It is interesting that each ecumenical council (link) was convened to deal with an issue of orthodoxy, and that after the decision was made a schism occurred. For example, the Fourth Council of Constantinople which led to the Roman Catholic/Orthodox schism and the Council of Trent which led to the Roman Catholic/Protestant divide.


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[
Quote:
quote=zmjezhd]There is a sharp divide between Orthodox (eastern) and Catholic (western) churches.

I've been reading a book The Councils of the Church: A Short History by Norman Tanner. It is interesting that each ecumenical council (link) was convened to deal with an issue of orthodoxy, and that after the decision was made a schism occurred. For example, the Fourth Council of Constantinople which led to the Roman Catholic/Orthodox schism and the Council of Trent which led to the Roman Catholic/Protestant divide.
[/quote]


And does that book mention what matter of Orthodoxy or Schism the Second Vatican
Ecumenical Council was dealing with? I'd be interested.


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Actually, Pastor Von, I did understand what you wrote about
the Liturgical Year. To place the entire life of the Christ into
a one year celebration: makes perfect sense.

Death of Christ: 14 of Nisan. OK

Birth of Christ: I've read and understand that his birth was
in warmer weather, for the shepherds were in the fields.
I've also read much on the term
The Israelites "pitched their tents" or tabernacled themselves
in the desert for 40 years. The Ark of the Covenant
was in its own tent or TABERNACLE until the time of
Solomon.
So a conclusion - add warmer weather and the term
"tabernacle", and add as well from the opening phrases of the
Gospel of John: "The word was made Flesh", which could be
translated: "The word pitched His tent", or the Word tabernacled Himself among mankind.
And a conclusion could be drawn from these that the Christ
was born in autumn, near the Feast of the Tabernacles.


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And does that book mention what matter of Orthodoxy or Schism the Second Vatican Ecumenical Council was dealing with? I'd be interested.

Haven't reached that one yet. IIRC, VatCon 2 dealt with the liturgy in the local vernacular, which way the priest faced during mass, etc. It lead to some quasi-schisms, like Traditionalists (link) and Sedevacantists (link). Now VatCon 1 actually caused a schism: the Old Catholic Church (link) most of whom live in the Netherlands and some in the Rhineland. (There was an old Jesuit church that was an Old Catholic Church in Bonn when I lived there.) I seemed to have been unclear in my post. The various ecumenical councils throughout history were usually convened to decide on issues of orthodoxy (in the small-o sense of the word). Maybe dogma would have been a better term. They also convened to repudiate some heresies du jour. The official decisions usually lead to consequences, like schisms or heresies. For example, the First Council of Nicea (the one that created the Nicene Creed) led to the suppressed and extinct Meletian Schism. (Melitius may have ordained Arius (of Arian infamy).)

[For the record, I am a secular humanist and tend towards nontheism, I am just interested in the development of Christian dogma and questions of canonicity of books in the Bible.]


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Originally Posted By: zmjezhd
For example, the Fourth Council of Constantinople which led to the Roman Catholic/Orthodox schism and the Council of Trent which led to the Roman Catholic/Protestant divide.

Well, almost. The Council of Trent didn't lead to the divide, but it set it in concrete. Or to change the metaphor, it was the capstone of the dispute, not the foundation stone.

The council of Trent was in the 1560s. Martin Luther posted his theses to the door at Wittenburg in 1517. The term Protestants was first used Apr 19, 1529. But the Reformation had been brewing in one way or another since the Conciliar disputes of three or four centuries earlier.

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Well, almost.

Yes, in many cases, the "problem" had been brewing or was in full boil before the council was convened, decision made, and concrete cures.


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Originally Posted By: LukeJavan8


Actually, Pastor Von, I did understand what you wrote about
the Liturgical Year. To place the entire life of the Christ into
a one year celebration: makes perfect sense.



Here is the promised URL on the lectionary year.

http://divinity.library.vanderbilt.edu/lectionary/

Go to the FAQ page and click on the first two selections for information on a lectionary and a church year.

BTW, the Radio Frequency Ablation of the Saphenous Veins in my left leg went fairly well yesterday. There is some tendernous this morning and a couple of spots that are sore to the touch. I'm leaving the house in a few minutes to have a Doppler Ultrasound to ascertain that things are as they ought to be on the inside.

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