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#18094 02/12/01 11:48 AM
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>I think this is the first time I've encountered 'gotten' in a book published in Britain.

Either Evelyn Waugh was showing off how well travelled he was or it was a gremlin.


#18095 02/12/01 12:10 PM
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Really, looking for a particular book in this house is like looking for ... anybody care to provide a suitable simile from their own experience? Yes I'd love to. "...is like looking for a needle in a haystack." or "....is like looking for fly poop in black pepper!"
jrj



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#18096 02/12/01 12:24 PM
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Seems many of us feel that gonna/gotta/wanna are okay spoken but not so okay when written. How does this apply to "gotten?" As in "I haven't gotten sick in a long time, but now I don't feel so good."

"I haven't been sick..." Anyway - whatcha think?
Yes, Hyla, you are so correct. This is really the way I was taught to say it and write it, in grammar school 40 years ago. I was almost believing that "gotten" was OK. But really it is not, just like saying "ain't". No one notices that or even corrects it anymore, such as "I ain't gonna go." Should be "I am not going to go." Basically, we are all in a super hurry to go nowhere, we all want to relax and slow down, but our only sitting is at the computer or in the car. And then we are impatient with slow drivers and slow servers!!!! I would rather have today's cars and computers, than Amish buggies and typewriters. But most under 30 never used a typewriter.
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#18097 02/12/01 12:38 PM
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I'm gonna go = I'm going to go.
Gotta go. = I've got to go.
I wanna go. = I want to go. Thinking about this as I type, I think perhaps in addition to being lazy when talking, if one types with a few fingers, it is easier to type gonna, gotta, wanna than the correct form. But I find typing on the computer so incredibly easy compared to the old elec IBM I learned typing on in '71. And I used to think that was soooo fast compared to the non-electric ones they replaced. Perhaps it should be mandatory to learn typing skills in grade school and high school on manual typewriters and then everyone will really appreciate the cyber age and all that it has to offer. "Whatcha think?"(informal) or "What do you think? (polite and formal)
jrj

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#18098 02/12/01 12:52 PM
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I'm gonna hafta stratein yew ot here...ya gotta no dat if it's sompin you feel strong nuf about yer gonna wanna make yer voice herd 'n stop that it's too late to change or my vote don't count crap....Yern'Merican aintcha?
My son, age 18, in 1989 (1st grade) learned to write and spell correctly, if not, points were taken off for spelling mistakes. My son, age 11,in 1996 (1st grade) was taught "inventive" spelling. Meaning that to get kids to write and to express their thoughts, and to put down an answer---as long as it looked close--was perfectly aceptable---For example "I fnd a rk."= "I found a rock." No one corrected the kids. Now they are trying to teach phonics and wondering why no one can sound out the words correctly or try to read a big word by sounding it out. Phonics teaches that every syllable has a vowel----inventive spelling teaches only consonant sounds in a word. Any comments?
jrj



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#18099 02/12/01 04:46 PM
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spelling teaches only consonant sounds in a word.

They should be naturals for learning written Hebrew, then!



The idiot also known as Capfka ...
#18100 02/12/01 05:29 PM
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Phonics teaches that every syllable has a vowel----inventive spelling teaches only consonant sounds in a word. Any comments? So does that mean Hebrew uses many consonants and few vowel sounds? I do know that if I remember to use my phonics when reading German, it is easier and not so overwhelming!! And the English pronunciation rules have more exceptions than do German. But German has more gender grammar rules such as "die das der" etc
I would love to hear comments from others on how they learned to read and spell correctly!!!
jrj







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#18101 02/12/01 07:03 PM
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bikermon wrote: would love to hear comments from others on how they learned to read and spell correctly!!!

As to reading : my mother read to me then my first grade teacher Sister Rose Ignatius SND was a believer in phonics way back then in the mid-1930s, despite pressures to do otherwise.

As to spelling : It was drummed into my dear little ear during elementary grades by the good Sisters of Notre Dame de Namur via spelling memorization, spelling tests, quizzes, (I will never forget how to spell bicycle after mangling it in a quizz) instruction in how to use a dictionary, and deductions in overall score for anything written if words mis-spelled. It worked.
wow



#18102 02/12/01 07:27 PM
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I would love to hear comments from others on how they learned to read and spell correctly!!!

My mother got some phonics books from her sister (a teacher) and taught me to read, starting when I was 3 or 4. I was probably helped by a two-year interlude in Italy where reading = phonics, and then I returned to Canada in grade three. By this time I knew lots of (English) words and could read pretty fast, so I wasn't really resorting to phonics although it was in the name of the workbook used in school. It was still a good method when encountering a new word. I also can relate to the spelling tests, and good spelling in general on all assignments - all this was required of us up to grade six. Then I went into French Immersion, and things got confusing. Besides, I have since concluded that no one really learns anything in junior high school!

Somewhere in the years between my brother and me (only four years) this phonics thing was lost. Or else he is genetically a terrible speller; I'm not really sure. And judging by the terrible lab reports I am forced to mark every couple of weeks, the people younger than him didn't get much better instruction. I wish I could take off marks for poor grammar and bad spelling - but I am constrained by a marking scheme handed down from above - besides, then they would have no marks left! ARGHHHHHHHHH!


#18103 02/12/01 08:02 PM
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well- I am one of those chronicly bad spellers-- no amount of phonics seems to help.

but it's ashame about no penalty for it. (i always lost points-- i still made honors classes, but never top honors.) One chemisty teach i know "failed" Lab reports in HS chemistry classes. when student objected, "This is English class, spelling shouldn't count" His response was "the only reason you take English classes is to be able to write clear lab reports!" We teased him a bit--"What Shakespeare is training for better lab reports?"-- but he countered that if we could write as wonderfully as shakespeare, it might not matter that we failed chemistry, but he suspected old Will would do better than most on at a lab report.-- Started with writing in full sentences, etc...

I don't remember learning to read--and I don't remember my mother ever reading to me (or my siblings)-- but she loved to read, and read when ever she could-- so i always thought of reading as something "Grown up" I know that i was reading before i started kindergarden-- simple stuff, like sunday comics, and "golden books".

and I also think gonna, wanna, etc, will creep into language-- at one time Good bye was God be with thee-- and it got contracted to Goodbye-- I am sure some scholar of olden days lamented the "slang"-- and wouldn't brook such slang as acceptable. now we have almost forgotten goodbye once meant something else-- and was spelt differently.


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