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What, exactly, does this term mean, please? And was there a "Modernism" culture that I missed?
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Post-modernism came after Modernism. It started out as an architectural term, was adopted and adapted by literary critics to roughly apply to post-WW2 literature. It has since been borrowed by all kinds of folks and to many is today a pejorative term.
Ceci n'est pas un seing.
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Good grief!! Is that Wikipedia article correct? No wonder I've never liked philosophy! Trying to comprehend exactly what this term means seems on a par with nailing gelatin to a wall: no sooner do you think you have part of it, than it slithers away from your grasp.
It almost sounds like anybody can use the term to mean pretty much anything. I did learn, though, that it's much older than I'd thought it was; I had the vague idea that it referred only as far back as maybe 1990.
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No wonder I've never liked philosophy! ...
It almost sounds like anybody can use the term to mean pretty much anything. I'm with you here. The only philosophy course that made any sense to me was the one sung by cleese, chapman, idle, palin and friends.
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Modernism in its broadest sense refers to the prevailing philosophy underpinning Western European culture since the Enlightenment (or as my old Theology lecturer liked to call it, 'the Endarkenment'). As such it has been around for a long time. The features of Modernism include: - a high regard for Reason and the Western Philosophical traditions going back two and a half thousand years to Socrates. - a movement from the God-centered universe of late medieval times to a Man-centered universe where Man becomes 'the measure of all things' and the measurer of all things. - Ramism in logic, Objectivism (or pseudo-Objectivism) in philosophy and theology (cf Hegel) and Empiricism in Science. - a tendency towards Materialism and the rejection of anything existing beyond the known senses. Modernism generally speaking doesn't like allowing for Mystery or admitting that there are things that 'science' can't comprehend. - a focus on 'the Big Picture' rather than the diverse parts. Modernism likes to imposes structure and meaning on the universe and organise data into patterns that show cause and effect on as large a scale as possible. Modernism desires a harmony of the parts into a coherent whole. Postmodernism on the other hand 'focuses' (not quite the right word) on the diversity of the universe and consciously rejects the search for a wider meaning, preferring to see the universe as a multiverse that doesn't necessarily need reconciling within itself into coherent logical patterns. Post-modernism is still too young (and perhaps too amorphous) to say whether it is truly a transition to a new philosophical age or just a short term trend, but as a generalisation, people over about forty years of age tend to think in more Modernist terms than the younger generations. The Baby Boomers, Generation Jones (or the Tweeners as they are also known), and the older Gen-Xes prefer 'Big' things, big causes, universal categories, objective truth, absolutes, capital 'R' Reason, etc. The big no-no for Modernists is being irrational and unscientific. Their big epistemological questions are "Is is True?" and "Can I believe it?" Postmodern generations, on the other hand, tend to glorify the small and local rather than the big and national and universal. Their outlook is tribal more than democratic, experiential more than scientific, emotional more than rational, 'spiritual' more than materialistic, subjective more than objective, animist rather than humanist, holist rather than compartmentalist. The postmodernist is more likely to be concerned more with the reality of relationships within her own little group of friends than with abstract big picture concepts like World Peace. The big no-no for post-Modernists is intolerance, since there is not one truth but many truths and what is true for you may not be true for me. Live and let live. They are pragmatists not theorists, and if they had big questions rather than a lot of little questions, these would be "Is it Real" and "Can I live it?" That is a fairly brief summary and contains many generalisations. It should only be applied as such. No one is wholly one or the other, and indeed any particular individual will be affected in their worldview by many different philosophical, relational, religious, social and personal factors. Such tags are descriptive, not prescriptive. A bit like human social grammar.
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No wonder I've never liked philosophy! ...
It almost sounds like anybody can use the term to mean pretty much anything. I'm with you here. The only philosophy course that made any sense to me was the one sung by cleese, chapman, idle, palin and friends. Which, whilst one appreciates its humorous and accurate parody of Western philosophy is itself a very Western, nihilistic rejection of the notion that it is worthwhile pursuing objective Truth. Pythonism relies squarely on, and is a natural progression from, some of the philosophy it seeks to undermine.
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Whoa! [impressed as all get-out e]. [Bow], even.
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What, exactly, does this term mean, please? And was there a "Modernism" culture that I missed? hmm...I can't believe I missed the rather obvious opportunity to make some wisecrack about Modernism not having hit Kentucky yet. Probably just as well, otherwise I might never have received the bow. Shucks, tweren't nothin'. 
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Postmodern Art Basically postmodern thinking started in the Arts and Architecture. In the fourtiesArchitecture was still straightforward, lines and windows straight and harmonious. From within the arts a contra movement came up. Borrowing from allsorts of styles from the past these elements could be brought together in a yet functional way of building. Post modern Art has its roots in the fifties and sixties, when artists created an enormousdiversity of alternative artforms: landart, environments, happenings , performances, body art, video art and finally computer art. Technology in Art is at least one aspect of Postmodernism. American Pop Art , let's name the A.Warhol again, calling his studio factory, an idea greedily taken over right now by Daimian Hirst. (recently discussed in this theater). In painting you see multitudes of borrowing and reworked subjects from all the stylistic periods, dipped in the artist personal dipping sauce. Best thing is to Google Postmodern art / images and see for yourself how hollow the term really is. Enjoy! Don't get lost! The term Post modern can label whatever. As to philosophy, here personally I lost it completely , A Babylonian brabbling of contradiction and obscurities. But it gives many people a job. it. Still I am of opinion that the real roots ly in the Dada movement of the interbellum period.This is rehashed art.
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Post modern Art has its roots in the fifties and sixties Ha, Pookie--I wasn't around in the Modernist era, and refuse to take blame for not knowing something from before I was born! And furthermore, for all I know, Modernism hasn't found Tasmania yet! So there! {wink}
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Thanks, Branny, your explanation helps a lot. Man-- This building is just... wrong; it looks as though a normal building has developed a horrible cancerous growth. I noticed it was labeled "Modernism and Postmodernism overlap". But The Hearst Tower in Manhattan is stunningly beautiful. The first site gives this, which I found interesting: Postmodernism is hard to define. Many opinions differ about whether it is a period, a set of styles, or a broader set of politics and ideologies. The term has described fashions throughout the years as well as media driven political campaigns in the 1990s. Modernism seems easier to pinpoint. The term "modern" means present or contemporary. In the art world the term expresses the self-consciousness of something that relates itself to the past. Increased technology advances and urban development helped modernity. Modernism and Postmodernism overlap. There is no precise moment of transition between the two. Postmodern art often does parodies or reproductions while Postmodern architecture steps out of the box to think of eye catching designs that may not even serve as functional.
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The comfort in this is that in spite of all this labelling and smart or vague terminologies, beautiful things are being created. People can invent definitions and pretty new words; it stands apart from what is made. And trust your own eyes. (If you feel like leafing through this) Great Buildings .com
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Thanks, Branny, your explanation helps a lot. Man-- This building is just... wrong; it looks as though a normal building has developed a horrible cancerous growth. I noticed it was labeled "Modernism and Postmodernism overlap". Gehry wears the Emperor's New Clothes.
formerly known as etaoin...
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And furthermore, for all I know, Modernism hasn't found Tasmania yet! So there! Oh you're definitely right about that! But then I'm only a naturalized Tasmaniac. 
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Postmodern Art
Basically postmodern thinking started in the Arts and Architecture. Not quite I think, though it depends on how you use the term I guess. Postmodern thinking definitely starts with philosophy and theology, and can be traced back to its roots in the Christian subjectivism of Kierkegaard and the atheistic nihilism of German philosophers, and the pessimistic humanism of the early 20th century in the wake of World War 1, all of which challenged some of the basic assumptions and aspirations of Modernism. Postmodern architecture and Art are symptoms, not the cause. The term itself may only have been popularly applied to philosophy recently, but the concepts and schools of thought were there long before we called it Post Modernism. In the forties Architecture was still straightforward, lines and windows straight and harmonious. From within the arts a contra movement came up. Borrowing from all sorts of styles from the past these elements could be brought together in a yet functional way of building. Not all architecture was like that. The Art Deco movement began earlier than the forties, and the architecture of Antoni Gaudi (1852-1926) had very few straight lines and was as weird as anything built before or since. Postmodern architecture was not the first that borrowed and blended all sorts of styles either. That has happened throughout architectural history, creating some hideous chimeras. One of the confusing things is that Modern Art (the art movement that grew out of post-Impressionism, into Expressionism, Cubism, Surrealism, etc and occupied much of the 20th Century) has post-modern philosophical underpinnings and is not a product of philosophical Modernism. Still I am of opinion that the real roots ly in the Dada movement of the interbellum period.This is rehashed art. Dada was not art at all. That was the point of Dada. It was self-consciously anti-Art. It was an attempt at setting up a kind of paradox - its point was that it was pointless, its art was in its non-art. It was a kind of artistic feedback process that in the end I think proved the rule by being the exception and made you able to recognise what Art is by comparing it with Dada. It was like the negative space around an object that enables you to identify it. It was the art world equivalent of the sound of one hand clapping.
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in the Dada movement of the interbellum period
Just a nit, but dada started in Zurich during the First World War, and it pretty much exhausted itself before the first decade of the entre deux guerres. Two good books on pomo fiction are Brian McHale's Postmodernist Fiction (1987) and Constructing Postmodernism (1992).
Ceci n'est pas un seing.
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Yes, I'm sure your right zmjezhd, but what's in a date? Things start somewhere at sometime and it to call it all over is never quite true. Currents once started move on upground or underground. You can call Magritte a DADA man if you want. Once Art was declared dead it lived on happily ever after.
Philosophers may claim postmodernism (thePook) as their sublime invention, however choatic it alll may be.
Artist claim it as their invention, it's just nothing new. The
tiranny of 'New!' and the label 'New!'just overrules the fact that hardly anything presented as such is no more than a variation on an old theme. If the variation is interesting and
passionating to see or hear or read ... than what more do you want?
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You can call Magritte a DADA man if you want.
I'd call him more a surrealist, and I would've never called him late to dinner. When I think dada, I think Tzara, Duchamp, Man, Picabia, Ball, Hennings, Arp, Huelsenbeck, Ernst, Baader, et al.
Ceci n'est pas un seing.
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Yap.  I said 'if you want' and if you don't you don't. I meant that surrealism could be seen as closely related to Dada, as the more intuitive container of the the absurd, die Verfremdung, where as Dada is more cerebral, philosophical, focussed on form and abstractions, but also tending to Verfremdung (is there an English word for this?) Take Magritte's painting "ceci n' èst pas une pipe" for instance. I've always liked the Dada mouvement. And Magritte's paintings, though he uses his paint dry and poorly.
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Verfremdung is usually translated as alienation.It's a translation of Russian prijom ostranenie 'making strange'. The Russian Formalist Shklovskij coined the term, and Brecht adopted it for theatre as Verfremdungseffekt 'alienation device'. [Addendum: I'd forgotten it's also called a distancing effect ( link).]
Last edited by zmjezhd; 09/29/08 09:12 PM.
Ceci n'est pas un seing.
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Philosophers may claim postmodernism (thePook) as their sublime invention, however chaotic it all may be.
Artist claim it as their invention, it's just nothing new. No it's just equivocal language. The terms Modern and Post Modern mean different things in different disciplines. The 'Modern' in Modern Art is not the same as that in 'Modern' Philosophy. Post Modern Art is not Post Modern philosophy (though they share certain philosophical underpinnings). But what is certain is that Art grows out of world view (which includes religion and philosophy), not the other way round. And I am an artist, by the way, not a philosopher. The tyranny of 'New!' and the label 'New!' just overrules the fact that hardly anything presented as such is any more than a variation on an old theme. If the variation is interesting and
passionating to see or hear or read ... then what more do you want? "Generations come and generations go, but the earth remains forever. The sun rises and the sun sets, and hurries back to where it rises. The wind blows to the south and turns to the north; round and round it goes, ever returning on its course. All streams flow into the sea, yet the sea is never full. To the place the streams come from, there they return again. All things are wearisome, more than one can say. The eye never has enough of seeing, nor the ear its fill of hearing. What has been will be again, what has been done will be done again; there is nothing new under the sun. Is there anything of which one can say, “Look! This is something new”? It was here already, long ago; it was here before our time." - Ecclesiastes (1:1-10), several centuries BC. Interestingly, the book of Ecclesiastes is largely about this feeling of Verfremdung you mention, or something akin to it.
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I know the term has a different meaning depending on the context;
philosophy, sociology, science, art. Yes, we are both artist and
personally I do not claim a word that is so useless, because if ever it was clear it's a totally worn out word.
As for what came before what: I always like think of early mankind. Our twofooted stone-age ancestors.
Would the first circle drawn in the sand be the result of stone-age man wanting to copy the sun or the moon or would he have incidently have drawn a circle and to his astonishment regocnized a sun or a full moon form.
Would the animal paintings in the caves of Altamira and Lascaux origin in the consious idea of the hunter to draw that animal, or would, as a result of torchlights lighting the uneven walls of the caves, some hunters have discovered animal forms to follow with charcoal, ochres etc.?
I like to think the latter: the idea came with or after the creative act. Art and philosophy always went close together and
influenced eachother both ways.
Last edited by BranShea; 09/30/08 11:06 AM.
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Would the animal paintings in the caves of Altamira and Lascaux origin in the consious idea of the hunter to draw that animal This is what seems logical to me. Could you explain why you think it's the other way?
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One would expect an example of a painting formed around the natural markings in the cave. As far as I know, there aren't any. But what do I know?
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Must admit I am not sure about this, whether it is a standing theory or whether it is a supposition of my own or maybe I just dreamed it. Cave I'm not presuming that all the prehistoric drawings in the caves are made on natural marking places. I'm just thinking about the origin: the very first drawings. When you look at the linked cave you see animals drawn, painted. But in between the actual drawings, just with a little bit of imagination you can see more animals just by means of the light striking the unevennesses of the surface. Those people were hunters. The shapes of animals must have been stored very clearly in their minds. Living in those caves, using torches drained in animal fat , the light must have played constantly over the natural markings in those caves. And more mysteriously then today's light beams.They must have seen the shapes of animals maybe before they started the very first drawing . (hum, I have to look into this again and I will, but that will take some time) The inspiration behind these paintings certainly was a mixture of magic and reverence, roots of religion. ( some say the caves were special worship places.)The little fertility statuettes are older than the drawings as far as I remember. If I'm wrong surely someone will correct me. A site for those who are really interested in the subject: Cap Blanc
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You mean, like the same way the constellations were seen and named? Yes, that's very interesting...and with your explanation and picture, I can certainly put more credence in your theory. I have never before seen a close-up of the drawings: I had always imagined the walls as being, if not flat, then at least relatively smooth.
Heh--so, could we label these as Premodernism?
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Definitely ! Premodernism. But on my way to find more exactitude I came across this promising site and fell into the fantastic trap of what structuralist and poststructuralist philosophy and methods have saddled us up with: Now please, don't be intimidated; it's just a piece of language.  About the Prehistoric female and male statuettes , what we naïves used to call "fertility statues": " Drawing upon my proposed decipherment of UP geometric signs, I have proposed that the so-called 'Venus' figurines from Eurasian sites, as well as many other anthropomorphic figures, represent and encode a female and male spiritual transformation processes. These appear to parallel some of the shamanic trance postures identified by the anthropologist Felicitas Goodman."This is what you may call :"Postmodern research methods".Researching the Origins of Art. Religion, and Mind
Methods for the Prehistory of Religions"Reconstruct, decode and decipher the overall 'semiotic competence', i.e., the differential features and common medium that offers a structured capacity to articulate meaningful narrativity and discourse, including conceptual, thematic, semantic, pragmatic, syntactic and glyphic deep structure. At this point the method may draw upon structuralist grammar (N. Chomsky), structuralist semantics (A.J.-Greimas) and so on. This stage may be termed the ‘structuralist moment' of interpretation. Decipher ‘meaning’ or ‘message’ being communicated using differential features of the semiotic competence as employed in a particular subject-matter to generate and amplify a meaning 'for them' and a poetics of feeling-toned meaning 'for us.' Consider limits of interpretation within a hermeneutic method or exegetic procedure amplifying meaning 'for them' and 'for us' (e.g., Hans-Georg Gadamer, Wolfgang Iser, reader response theory). Explore amplification of archetypal symbols as thea/opoetics, (Hopper and Miller) that is as a poetic performative presencing of supernatural beings, spiritual principles, or divine powers. Attempt to systematically reconstruct, within the limits of residual artifacts and contextual factors, tentative prehistoric beliefs and thea/ologies, rituals or myths or their underlying structural themes, based on the decoding of the semiotic competence and decipherment of actual products of this competence 'Systematicity' criteria may include: Coherence, consistency and comprehensiveness of accounting for the semiotic evidence. A rigorous critical method, such as mythic group-theoretic structure (Levi-Strauss) or set-theoretic inclusion/exclusion dialectics (deconstruction and critical theories of privilege and marginalization). Check adequacy of the decoding to the processual archeological context--a check on validity of the decoding. (I have the site , but it said something about copyrighted, well uh.. I hope I'll survive)
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Sheesh--somebody should decode that.
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There was a TV series about the origins of Art recently that featured this shamanistic explanation. The first cave drawings were apparently made by the first acid-heads recording their trips on psychotropic drugs. The hypothesis is that the shamans were painting their 'death' experiences in trances, where they entered the spirit world, etc. It was an interesting idea, but in the end I don't think there is much real evidence for it, and the most plausible explanation remains that ancient people drew the animals either as a record of their hunting victories or (more likely) in some kind of totemistic attempt to procure suffessful hunting. But everything is sheer speculation since we don't have the artists to ask. The only answer that makes any sense is "we don't know" (why they drew them).
One misconception that continues to appear, however, is that the people who drew these things were "cavemen." There is no such thing really. They did not live in the caves. It's not like Fred Flinstone. They didn't draw pretty pictures on the wall of their lounge room. The caves in which these pictures (and most others like them) occur are extremely hard places to get into. In some cases they are in the farthest possible recesses, or on high ceilings hard to reach. They were not made in everyday places for common consumption. They were special, which probably indicates a religious significance. This accords with known examples from historical times, such as the rock art of southern african tribes and Australian aboriginal peoples. The location is secret and only special members of society are allowed to view them, let alone make them.
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When you look at the linked cave you see animals drawn, painted.
But in between the actual drawings, just with a little bit of imagination you can see more animals just by means of the light striking the unevennesses of the surface.
It's call pareidolia. I'm not saying that this disproves the idea but it suggests that our seeing animal shapes in natural features on the cave walls when our minds are primed by the paintings to see those shapes does not support it, either.
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The caves in which these pictures (and most others like them) occur are extremely hard places to get into. In some cases they are in the farthest possible recesses, or on high ceilings hard to reach. They were not made in everyday places for common consumption. They were special, which probably indicates a religious significance. So even in prehistoric times, art was esoteric and inaccessible. Not that surprising, really.
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I have not done much reading on postmodernism beyond wiki. I have done some reading on deconstruction, none of which makes any remote sense to me. I cannot distinguish whether it is brilliant or just stupid. As with most things, I assume that reading about it is largely a waste of time and so I read a few things that were recommended to me by others - an essay or letter or something written by Derrida and some chapter of a book by a guy named Foucault. I don't remember details - only thinking that everything they wrote was (as Gauss apparently wrote about Kant) "either obvious or wrong."
In relation to art, etc., I think there are useful, interesting, and beautiful things to come of it, but that much of it's crap. Hopefully, we can - as with every other cultural digression - assimilate what's good and interesting and relegate the rest to the fail experiment graveyard. Some of the stuff you can barely look at without thinking about tulips and Holland.
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The caves in which these pictures (and most others like them) occur are extremely hard places to get into. In some cases they are in the farthest possible recesses, or on high ceilings hard to reach. They were not made in everyday places for common consumption. They were special, which probably indicates a religious significance. So even in prehistoric times, art was esoteric and inaccessible. Not that surprising, really. Not easy to combine pre-history and post-history. Back to ThePook to agree that there seem to have been special worshipping caves (I already mentioned). They did live in caves in that region, but different caves. In the fifties Time-Life ran a series of articles called: The Epic of Man. I have the whole series in a special translated edition. 1963. Two illustration by Alton S.Tobey who, like it or not, did a great job. painters at work worshipping Most art,when taken over all the works created all through history is very accessible. It's only lately that artists seem to create a deliberate inaccessibiliy. "The Emperor's wardrobe" Esoteric has always been part of art. What's wrong with that? And the Falls'Feind's "Tulips and Holaland" must be a postmodern poetry line e.i. I don't get it.
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When you look at the linked cave you see animals drawn, painted.
But in between the actual drawings, just with a little bit of imagination you can see more animals just by means of the light striking the unevennesses of the surface.
: I'm not saying that this disproves the idea but it suggests that our seeing animal shapes in natural features on the cave walls when our minds are primed by the paintings to see those shapes does not support it, either. Sorry for the separate post for clearness' sake. It has a name then: pariedolia. What I meant and try to imagine is how did this given capacity of the human brain result in the first drawings. ( The cave situation is not really the point) ThePook speaks of acid heads. I don't believe that. Even from early childhood I remember shaping mind-forms when staring at the fourties's wallpaper. We werent on any drugs, ThePook. Maybe only a bit hungry. 
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Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 1,526
veteran
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veteran
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 1,526 |
And the Falls'Feind's "Tulips and Holaland" must be a postmodern poetry line e.i. I don't get it. The "value" of some Postmodern Art reminds me of tulipmania.
Last edited by TheFallibleFiend; 10/03/08 01:56 AM.
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Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 1,067
old hand
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old hand
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 1,067 |
I don't remember details - only thinking that everything they wrote was (as Gauss apparently wrote about Kant) "either obvious or wrong." ...or obviously wrong? In relation to art, etc., I think there are useful, interesting, and beautiful things to come of it, but that much of it's crap. ...and some of it is quite literally crap! (and other bodily excretions or secretions)
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Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 1,067
old hand
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old hand
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 1,067 |
You misunderstand me Bran, it wasn't my idea that the earliest rock art was psychedelic. That was just a TV show I saw. I think it is far-fetched too. I believe the simplest hypothesis, which is usually the right one, is that the earliest art was simply representational.
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Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 5,295
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 5,295 |
O.K. I stop misunderstanding you right now. It's ancient history anyway.
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Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803 |
I remember seeing a cave painting or sculpture of a wild pig that had been speared. The picture stayed in my mind but I was not that impressed with it as a work of art until I saw a movie in an anthropology class in college that included the spearing of a domestic pig. The cave artist had captured the experience exactly.
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Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 1,067
old hand
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old hand
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 1,067 |
Yup. I don't know why people think rock art is 'primitive.' They had exactly the same intelligence and artistic ability we do.
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