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#179000 09/03/08 05:49 PM
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My 15 year old asked me why "nonetheless" means what it does. It sounded like a simple enough question so I dove right in only to get hopelessly tangled. "None" of what? "Less" than or of what? Why didn't he ask me about ne'er do well? That one's easy. Help!

Janis #179002 09/03/08 07:16 PM
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Hello Janis,

Not being able to give you the solution of this little problem, nevertheless I aswer you because nonetheless gave me a good laugh.
When I translated this word to Dutch I noticed we have for this:
'desalniettemin '. Which is at the same level of inexplicable as
nonetheless.

BranShea #179006 09/03/08 09:29 PM
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huh. this word (meaning nevertheless or notwithstanding) has been around forever (or since ÆLFRIC, whichever came first).

earlier forms: natheless, nautheless, netheless; with many OE and ME forms featuring Þ and ð and æ -- none of this, nonetheless, explains why it means what it does.

-joe (it is what it is) friday

tsuwm #179007 09/03/08 09:41 PM
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by the by, here's an example where the Online Etymology Dictionary is totally hosed, "1847, as phrase none the less; contracted into one word from c.1930"

it's clear they[he] took this directly from OED2:

1847 DICKENS Dombey (1848) xlii. 419, I thank you none the less. 1875 RUSKIN Fors Clav. lv, The children none the less knew their love. 1924 G. B. SHAW St. Joan v. 66 But you will be none the less alone: they cannot save you. 1930 Principal's Rep., Armstrong College (Newcastle) 1929-30 4 The elevation of Sir William Noble..to the peerage..has been a matter of pride and pleasure..which nonetheless has been qualified subsequently. 1955 Times 13 July 7/5 Later than Nabucco.., it is, nonetheless, not such a good opera. 1972 Nature 8 Dec. 327/1 Although some research fields seem to grow from a single, germinal experiment, others take root in accidents set off by workers stumbling from one preserve to another{em}and are none-the-less interesting for that.

but they[he] needs to keep up with OED[online]:

1533 Aberdeen Burgh Rec. in A. J. Mill Mediaeval Plays in Scotl. (1927) 144 Nontheles he was {ygh}eit reddy to except the said office gif the toune [etc.]. 1620 tr. G. Boccaccio Decameron III. X, None the less he would do all that in him lay. 1821 N. Amer. Rev. July 58 Education is not a subject of national legislation, but it is none the less a national concern. 1847 DICKENS Dombey & Son (1848) xlii. 419, I thank you none the less. 1875 J. RUSKIN Fors Clavigera lv, The children none the less knew their love. 1915 C. P. S. GILMAN Herland xi, He said that they could of course kill him,..but that he despised them nonetheless. 1955 Times 13 July 7/5 Later than Nabucco.., it is, nonetheless, not such a good opera. 1988 M. SPARK Far Cry from Kensington vi. 29 Anne Clough, whose father, though completely crazy, had nonetheless been hanged.

-joe (that was a bit of fun) friday

tsuwm #179010 09/03/08 11:15 PM
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It's a weird thing. Written none the less or 'nonetheless' it makes no sense yet we all use it and it has a function.
Want to add how evenly senseless is 'desalniettemin'.
This is a glued together word like we glue together as much as we can: des = of, al = already, niet = not, te = too = min = less.
So: of-already-not-too-less. Yet desalniettemin is used as often as nonetheless.

BranShea #179011 09/04/08 01:18 AM
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Nonetheless, 'nonetheless' notwithstanding, 'nevertheless' is none the less useful also. \:\)

The Pook #179015 09/04/08 01:47 AM
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Somehow I see a sense behind it but I can't quite get a handle on what it is.

Janis #179018 09/04/08 08:16 AM
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Thinking imperfectly, I'm thinking along the lines that what has been said before nonetheless lessens what is to be said thereafter none at all.

BranShea #179019 09/04/08 01:05 PM
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As in Dutch, it also exists in German: niedestoweniger (nevertheless). Just to add some info. Doesn't help me figure it out...

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well. take a look at Dickens' usage. it's pretty clear what he means and why it means that. don't you think?!

-joe (dumb guy, no son) friday

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