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Today's quote caught my eye as being actual but already outdated. "Italian footballers were showered with applause and surrounded by flashing cameras, songs, and chants. The hubbub generates a sense of excitemen unique to the sport of football."
Do Hung; Champions' Charm; Thanh Nien (Ho Chi Minh City, Vietnam);
Jun 5, 2008.
On Jun 8, ,the proud Italian Champions of the world suffered a historical, unprecedented 0-3 defeat against the Orange-11. So the horrendous hubbub in streets and cafes will go on for a while. The horn blowing, the whole orange haberdashery, flags, baloons, wigs and hats will dim the horizon for as long as we stay in the game. The Italian footballers and crowd were not amused.
Last edited by BranShea; 06/11/08 01:06 PM.
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I would have thought it means weary of the commuting scene
dalehileman
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;~) No Dale, it means that one group's hubbub easily changes to another group's hubbub.
Oh , sorry Dale. I'm slow, the point is yours!
Last edited by BranShea; 06/13/08 07:01 AM.
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Thank you Bran, it's a reassuring note in this hotbed of mutual recrimination, the Internet
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"You will never find a more wretched hive of scum and villainy. We must be cautious."
-OB1 K.
ÅΓª╥┐↕§
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wretched hive of scum and villainy
Yeah, but, can you say it in Huttese?
Ceci n'est pas un seing.
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Later the ek geleer that Korannas se language 'n dialek of Hottentots. Op universiteit het ek gehoor dat Afrikaans en Suid-Afrikaanse Engels baie woorde uit Hottentots gekry het, soos vir plante en diere, vir plekke en plase and animals, and vir ground pool. My belangstelling is gewek.’ My interest has ceased. " (ha,automatical translations become Huttese anyway.) Huttese? Or: Wookieepedia
Last edited by BranShea; 06/13/08 10:01 PM.
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Nama is a Khoisan language ( link), a famous example in the movies of which was in The Gods Must Be Crazy. These languages are famous for their click consonants. (The term Hottentot is consider offensive these days.) I was referring to the language that Jabba the Hutt spoke in reference to the quotation.
Ceci n'est pas un seing.
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I know you referred to Jabba the Hutt, that's why the Wookieepedia link. Sorry if hottentots is offensive, it stuck in our language as a synonym for stammering and is not considered offensive. It made for the longuest word our language:
'hottentottententententoonstelling.'
(yes, crazy)
(exhibition of Hottentot tents)
Last edited by BranShea; 06/14/08 06:44 AM.
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Sorry if hottentots is offensiveI figured you'd gotten the reference because of the Wookieepedia link. It isn't offensive to me, but was just an informational aside in case you have some !Kung over for tea and cakes in the gazebo. The Dutch Wikipedia article on Hottentottententententoonstelling ( link) lists some longer variants.
Ceci n'est pas un seing.
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there are always words in one language that are offencive, and and in an other language, have similar (root) meanings --but a totally different meaning. (and nuance) and are not offensive.
In US, there is, what is called the N word--a word that has a long history of abuse, and it is offense to many.
In Ireland (and i suspect scotland and parts of UK) the same word is used to describe a warm, rich shade of brown (as in 'she bought herself a beautiful new coat of N word brown wool")
(in US i suspect we'd use dark chocolate brown (but chocolate has also been used to describe people, too!)
------------------
the words my parents thought offensive (bloody and bleeding come to mind) had no real significance in US.
other word, they "heard" as nice euphemisms. (so they didn't like us to use arse, but never made a peep at the word ass..)
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Transit to old Egypt now?
>Kung over for tea and cakes in the gazebo. This proto-Egyptian? :~)
Thanks for that link with the outrageous extensions of Hottentot
plus other wordy things I long forgot. Really terrible.
I guess Helen, we are just a bit less careful with political correctness and offensive use of words, because the eufemisms are
often just hypocritical. We call white white again and black, after a period of changing from one eufemism to the other. But you are right, of course sensiblities are different in different countries.
black, both parties. (the saying is: we like to call the child by its name)
Oh, this does not mean we use crude words all the time.
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I love coming to these boards and getting a chuckle! Just so you know, Bran and Troy, sensibilities are different in different rooms in my parts! Most of the time, "black" and "african american" are used interchangeably, and even in the same sentence. Yet I know some are offended by one or the other (though they may say nothing, or merely use their word of choice deliberately after you have used the other). Personally, I greatly dislike the term "Caucasian", as I am not from Russia, nor anywhere near it, nor do I have any ancestry from the area. I'd rather be called "white", although I am truly sort of pinky-beige, or something. But I find that when people are struggling to be PC, they are thinking less about what they really mean to say and how to convey their thoughts clearly and carefully, which is a shame. :0)
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Huttese... I was referring to the language that Jabba the Hutt spoke in reference to the quotation. I wonder if that's what they speak in the Hutt River Principality? There is actually a guy in Western Australia who seceded from the Commonwealth and declared his farming property a separate Province, back in the 1980s. Later he promoted himself to Prince and proclaimed it a Principality.
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But I find that when people are struggling to be PC, they are thinking less about what they really mean to say and how to convey their thoughts clearly and carefully, which is a shame. :0) Agree.It makes things foggy. Caucasion has always puzzled me. I always hear it, mostly in crime series or for missing persons. The Kaukasus is a Rus. mountain range. Do they see that as the origin of white populations? (Yeh, I like the laugh and the chuckle, but I'm curious for all sorts of thoughts and stuff too. ThePook: "There is actually a guy in Western Australia.... When the old fox is gone "His Royal Highness Crown Prince Ian" will be given a microcoronation?
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Here's Wikipedia on the origin of the term Caucasian for the racial type. For those of y'all who don't accept Wikipedia as a good source, they do list several external references.
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Caucasian has always puzzled me. I always hear it, mostly in crime series or for missing persons. The Kaukasus is a Rus. mountain range. Do they see that as the origin of white populations? Yes that is the origin of the terminology. ThePook: "There is actually a guy in Western Australia.... When the old fox is gone "His Royal Highness Crown Prince Ian" will be given a microcoronation? I suppose he will! And then in his coronation parade he will give from his royal carriage a 'microwave' perhaps? 
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 And, well said: Yes that is the origin of the terminology. For that's all it is.
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Back to hottentot...
So in Dutch, it's known to mean stammer (and German hotteren-totteren = stutter according to askoxford), but it's not considered offensive.
Is it really possible to refer to group as "those people with a speech impediment" without thinking it might be just a tiny bit, oh, insensitive?
It seems to me that wishing on piebald horses would be a successful business there. (^_^)
(In case that doesn't "translate": If you make a wish on a piebald (spotted) horse without thinking about its tail, the wish will come true.)
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"those people with a speech impediment"The people, formerly called Hottentots, did not suffer from speech impediments, unless, of course, not being able to speak Afrikaans or English is taken to be a disorder. (Non-natives speakers as stutters and stammers is a trope in ancient times, e.g., the Greeks called all barbarians so because they stammered (or said bar bar bar).) Jokes and stories told by groups about their neighbors falls under the heading of blason populaire in folklore. (See link and link.)
Ceci n'est pas un seing.
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Zmehjzd gave a just answer, I think. The matter maybe should be dicussed with a real member of the Khoisan people, but where to find one Khoisan at all? There are different kinds of speech impediments. So we just say : someone stammers or someone lisps. "Don't speak Hottentots" is mostly used when someone who can speak well doesn't. It seems to me that wishing on piebald horses would be a successful business there. (^_^)
(In case that doesn't "translate": If you make a wish on a piebald (spotted) horse without thinking about its tail, the wish will come true.) Not familiar with betting on horses.You took the effort to explain (thanks), but I can make head nor tail of/from it. Is it not the nose of the horse that decides the outcome of a race? ( absolutely in the dark)
Last edited by BranShea; 06/18/08 05:26 PM.
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Well, ignoring things like etymonline's explanation...
Hottentot
1677, from S.African Du., said to mean "stammerer," it is from hot en tot "hot and tot," nonsense words imitative of the clicking, jerking Khoisan speech.
or AskOxford ORIGIN Dutch, perhaps a repetitive formula in a Khoikhoi dancing song, transferred by Dutch sailors to the people themselves, or from German hotteren-totteren ‘stutter’ (with reference to their click language).
which seem to me to suggest that the origin of the name was possibly not "politically correct" to begin with... (ChingChong Chinese for another example) If there were a hypothetical town of Stamm in the country of Stutt, my first choice to call the people would not be Stammer or Stutter - even if the result wasn't negative. Would you call someone from Chay a chair? ;-)
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Not familiar with betting on horses.You took the effort to explain (thanks), but I can make head nor tail of/from it. Is it not the nose of the horse that decides the outcome of a race? (absolutely in the dark) I guess I need to explain "make a wish on something". By example, you "make a wish on a star" or "wish on a star". "Star light, star bright, I wish I may, I wish I might, have the wish I wish tonight." "When you wish upon a star, makes no difference who you are, anything your heart desires will come to you." No betting or racing involved. You see the horse (standing by the road as you drive by maybe). You make a wish. You don't think of the horse's tail while you do it and the wish comes true. Obviously, it's very hard to be looking at a horse with tail attached and think about not thinking about its tail without actually thinking about its tail. Any better?
Last edited by Myridon; 06/18/08 09:19 PM.
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Good enough for a cheer up laugh on a cold summer morning. (*_*)
[ Edit: only now I read your edit.]
Right, it wasn't "politically correct" to begin with. Political correctness is an invention of the last five to ten years. As is the hype in nations asking official pardons for incorrect treatments in he past. Where is the end to all the pardons we have to give and ask for.
Isn't it better to do things right now in stead of making empty repairs for the past?
In offense it's all about the way you adress someone. The words hardly matter. You can call someone: "doormat", "buttercup" " chair", even "mate" or "friend" and be offensive. You can say:"creep" "hottentot", "hooplehead" (borrowed) and not be offensive.
No betting on a comet, I guess?
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I think I torpedoed my own point by saying ""politically correct"" even though I put it in quotes. Let me try again.
When I (assuming I hadn't just looked up the etymology) say "The Hottentots speak in Hottentot dialects," the word Hottentot is relatively meaningless to me.
When you say it in in Dutch, it "sounds" like "The stutters speak in stutter dialects." While you may find that "inoffensive", doesn't it cause a bit of something sort of like cognitive dissonance or looking at the picture with the vase and seeing the two faces?
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When you say it in in Dutch--[ you didn't do this on purpose did you ? ? (*_=) ] Nee,nay, we need not go below sea level to work this out, but lets get to the bottom of this. (+_+) This hottentot thing is offending no one. First: it is not used in the direct way : You are an ugly hottentot.No. Second: it is not offending any population group. The Khoisans can't know this word is still used to correct a dutch person's sloppy speach or used to denounce some one who might stammer or just does not articulate well. We're as considerate with people with a speech impediment as the rest of "civilized" mankind. (and making as many mistakes). We were taught not to make fun of anyone's whatever impediment. Third... just for the color.
Last edited by BranShea; 06/19/08 06:29 PM.
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[ you didn't do this on purpose did you ? ? (*_=) ] Do what on purpose? In my last post, I was merely asking if you notice something else about the situation, nothing to do with offensiveness. As in my earlier example (people from the mythical town of Chay), if I found myself saying "The Chayers speak a Chayer dialect" I might find it amusing because Chayer would sound like chair.
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[ you didn't do this on purpose did you ? ? (*_=) ] Do what on purpose? >"When you say it in in Dutch" assuming she meant the *stutter.. - joe (two-note) friday
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I was giving you the keyboard wink. I was the coincidence of your
'in in'. It was meant friendly.
>I might find it amusing because Chayer would sound like chair.
As I found it too. There was nothing offensive in your post and I hope nothing in mine.
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Political correctness is an invention of the last five to ten years. I suspect you may be showing your age there Bran. I'd say at least 15 to 20 years since that term became common currency. Time does seem to go faster as we get older doesn't it? Sigh. 
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Oh, dear, oh, my. When I pointed out that the people formerly known as Hottentots found that particular ethnonym offensive, I was not admonishing Bran to eschew it. I was just telling her, that in the unlikely event that she found herself face to face with a Khoisan, she might ixnay on the ottentothay. I realize that many people get all riled up when somebody points out that some other body finds some bit of language offensive. (Shouts of "cry havoc" and don't you dare legislate my language, unless of course it's ungrammatical.) I will digress, as is my dithering wont, into an anecdote. I was invited to a Thanksgiving dinner by a friend of mine that was being held at his parents house. I'd had never met them, but they seemed like a nice old couple once I had. At some point during the turkey dinner: the mom is all n-word this and n-word that, and because I'm a guest and there are no African-Americans present I let it slide, because I figure, she's old and set in her ways and nothing I can do will change any of that. During a later course I mentioned that the main ethnic slur I'd encountered in my tender youth was Oakie. The temperature in the room dropped 20 degrees Fahrenheit. My friend's mother stopped talking. Full stop. Later, he told me that he was amazed that his mom hadn't bitch-slapped me and walked me out to my car. I was shocked. I felt that a white lady who dropped the n-word with abandon wouldn't blink at a little grapes of wrath opprobrium. My bad.
Ceci n'est pas un seing.
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What is an oakie? and is it the same as the oakie from muscogee that merle sings about?
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Oakie From Muskogee
We don't smoke marijuana in Muskogee;
We don't take our trips on LSD;
We don't burn our draft cards down on Main Street;
We like livin' right, and bein' free.
We don't make a party out of lovin';
We like holdin' hands and pitchin' woo;
We don't let our hair grow long and shaggy,
Like the hippies out in San Francisco do.
I'm proud to be an Oakie from Muskogee,
A place where even squares can have a ball.
We still wave Old Glory down at the courthouse,
And white lightin's still the biggest thril of all.
Leather boots are still in style for mainly footwear;
Beads and roman sandals won't be seen.
Football's still the roughest thing on campus,
And the kids here still respect the college dean.
And I'm proud to be an Oakie from Muskogee,
A place where even squares can have a ball.
We still wave Old Glory down at the courthouse,
And white lightin's still the biggest thril of all.
We still wave Old Glory down at the courthouse,
In Muskogee, Oklahoma, USA.
But, I have no idea why that's an insult.
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here's some background for the term Okie (note spelling), including original and current usage.
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[i]...And I'm proud to be an Oakie from Muskogee,
...etc/i]
But, I have no idea why that's an insult. Well if you have no idea living in Western NY, I, living in Tasmania, am totally mystified also. Please elucidate dzhaimz!
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Political correctness is an invention of the last five to ten years. I suspect you may be showing your age there Bran. I'd say at least 15 to 20 years since that term became common currency. Time does seem to go faster as we get older doesn't it? Sigh. supposedly once said: "When the end of the world is at hand I'll move to Holland, everything there happens fifty years later". Fifty is exagerated but yes, everything that is world-mainstream terminology and fashion becomes mainstream here 5 to 10 years later. ( Not bad Heinequotes) As for age and time: I don't want to mislead anyone and time runs and crawls simultaneously.  --( Verified and signed by old Oakhead (from Okie)(note spelling)of the Acorn Tribe.)
Last edited by BranShea; 06/20/08 02:26 PM.
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During a later course I mentioned that the main ethnic slur I'd encountered in my tender youth was Oakie. The temperature in the room dropped 20 degrees Fahrenheit. My friend's mother stopped talking. Full stop. Later, he told me that he was amazed that his mom hadn't bitch-slapped me and walked me out to my car. I was shocked. I felt that a white lady who dropped the n-word with abandon wouldn't blink at a little grapes of wrath opprobrium. So was she taking umbrage at the "O word" or did she simply resent the implied criticism of her own language?
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[quote=The Pook][quote=BranShea]Heinrich Heine supposedly once said:
"When the end of the world is at hand I'll move to Holland, everything there happens fifty years later".
Fifty is exagerated but yes, everything that is world-mainstream terminology and fashion becomes mainstream here 5 to 10 years later. Move to Tasmania. It really is true here. 
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What is an oakie?
A person from Oklahoma who went west in the days of the Depression in the US. It turns out I was wrong about my friend's mom's origins. She was an Arkie from Arkansas, but I suppose most Californians of the right vintage didn't make such fine distinctions in labeling the invaders. (I see that tsuwm has posted down south a link to the Wikipedia.)
Ceci n'est pas un seing.
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So was she taking umbrage at the "O word" or did she simply resent the implied criticism of her own language?
I think the former. As I hinted above, in response to olly, it may have been because she was from Arkansas and resented being called the o-word.
Ceci n'est pas un seing.
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I would like to think that, after thousands of years, that we the human race would have learned better by now, but. It seems that just about every group has set its own standards for what's acceptable and what's not. If I meet a Middle Eastern Muslim, I don't care whether he's a Sunni or a Shiite; a Rwandan--I don't care whether she's a Tutsi or Hutu; and I don't imagine either of them would care whether I am a Methodist, Baptist or a Catholic.
I learned from this board that a particular nickname for someone from Ireland is offensive to them; yet there was nothing, to me, to distinguish it from the other nicknames I've heard. Okie to me is not insulting a person from Oklahoma.
What are we to do?
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So was she taking umbrage at the "O word" or did she simply resent the implied criticism of her own language?
I think the former. As I hinted above, in response to olly, it may have been because she was from Arkansas and resented being called the o-word. Is it possible she misheard your northern pronunciation of Oakie and thought you were saying Arkie? In other words implying that the worst possible thing you could call someone was an Arkie?
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