Wordsmith.org: the magic of words

Wordsmith Talk

About Us | What's New | Search | Site Map | Contact Us  

Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Page 1 of 6 1 2 3 4 5 6
#173650 02/17/08 10:42 AM
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 631
Hydra Offline OP
addict
OP Offline
addict
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 631
Is there a word for a moment of dramatic silence in the middle of a piece of music?

The effect is used in a lot of modern music, but is by no means new. There is three seconds of breathtaking silence, for example, in the otherwise tempestuous Sind Blitze sind Donner in Wolken verschwinden chorus of Bach's Matthäuspassion (quod vide! quod vide!).

Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 7,210
Carpal Tunnel
Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 7,210
well, there's the










Grand Pause.

Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803
Carpal Tunnel
Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803
Originally Posted By: Hydra
Is there a word for a moment of dramatic silence in the middle of a piece of music?

The effect is used in a lot of modern music, but is by no means new. There is three seconds of breathtaking silence, for example, in the otherwise tempestuous Sind Blitze sind Donner in Wolken verschwinden chorus of Bach's Matthäuspassion (quod vide! quod vide!).


Christmas theme in a Holy Week piece?

Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 631
Hydra Offline OP
addict
OP Offline
addict
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 631
In fast-paced and tempestuous music, it's a little like the eye of the hurricane. First an abrupt stop, then a short silence, then an explosive recapitulation.

>Grand Pause

I knew it would be something like that.

Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 631
Hydra Offline OP
addict
OP Offline
addict
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 631
Quote:
Christmas theme in a Holy Week piece?


Not sure what your question is, but if you're interested...

Quote:
Sind Blitze, sind Donner in Wolken verschwunden?
[Hath lightning, hath thunder in clouds fully vanished?]

Eröffne den feurigen Abgrund, o Hölle,
[Lay open thy fire's raging chasm, O hell, then,]

Zertrümmre, verderbe, verschlinge, zerschelle
[Now ruin, demolish, devour, now shatter]

Mit plötzlicher Wut
[With suddenmost wrath]

Den falschen Verräter, das mördrische Blut!
[The lying betrayer, that murderous blood!]

Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803
Carpal Tunnel
Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803
Originally Posted By: Hydra


Quote:
Sind Blitze, sind Donner in Wolken verschwunden?
[Hath lightning, hath thunder in clouds fully vanished?]


Not to mention Dasher, Dancer, Prancer, Vixen, Comet, and Cupid. And I would have translated verschwunden as 'dashed away.'




Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 1,773
D
Pooh-Bah
Offline
Pooh-Bah
D
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 1,773
Hi Hydra, maybe it's a kind of "rest," which I found as follows

http://onelook.com/?w=*&loc=revfp2&clue=abrupt+pause+music

Last edited by dalehileman; 02/17/08 03:28 PM.

dalehileman
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 7,210
Carpal Tunnel
Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 7,210
Originally Posted By: Faldage
Originally Posted By: Hydra


Quote:
Sind Blitze, sind Donner in Wolken verschwunden?
[Hath lightning, hath thunder in clouds fully vanished?]


Not to mention Dasher, Dancer, Prancer, Vixen, Comet, and Cupid. And I would have translated verschwunden as 'dashed away.'


heh



formerly known as etaoin...
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 631
Hydra Offline OP
addict
OP Offline
addict
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 631
Quote:
And I would have translated verschwunden as 'dashed away.'


I copied what I pasted above from the PDF booklet to the Hänssler edition of the Complete Works of Bach. Take it up with Alison Dobson-Ottmers, and do not be intimidated by her native German-English bilingualism and battery of degrees in translation studies.

But perhaps this is a joke. If so, you have the German sense of humour, if not the Sprachgefühl. :P

Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803
Carpal Tunnel
Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803
Originally Posted By: Hydra


But perhaps this is a joke.


Ya think mehbe?

Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 5,295
Carpal Tunnel
Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 5,295
Originally Posted By: Faldage
Originally Posted By: Hydra


Quote:
Sind Blitze, sind Donner in Wolken verschwunden?
[Hath lightning, hath thunder in clouds fully vanished?]

Not to mention Dasher, Dancer, Prancer, Vixen, Comet, and Cupid. And I would have translated verschwunden as 'dashed away.
Dashing!

Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 5,295
Carpal Tunnel
Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 5,295
But as for dramatic silences in music, isn't the silence (the "grandest" pauze of all) the one between the very last note of a great performance and the applause?



Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 6,511
Carpal Tunnel
Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 6,511
Originally Posted By: Faldage
Originally Posted By: Hydra


But perhaps this is a joke.


Ya think mehbe?


Perhaps Hydra is unfamiliar with the poem.

Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 631
Hydra Offline OP
addict
OP Offline
addict
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 631
Ja, ja! Ein guter witz!

Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 1,819
A
Pooh-Bah
Offline
Pooh-Bah
A
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 1,819
I would use the word caesura to describe a significant pause in the music, essentially a rest of undefined duration -- that is of a duration at the discretion of the conductor.


Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 7,210
Carpal Tunnel
Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 7,210
the caesura, is usually shorter than a...


grand pause.


formerly known as etaoin...
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 1,067
old hand
Offline
old hand
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 1,067
interlude?

Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 11,613
Carpal Tunnel
Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 11,613
Hey, Pookie, welcome! You're only the second (identified) Tasmanian we've had on here. (paulb, are you still around?)

Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 631
Hydra Offline OP
addict
OP Offline
addict
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 631
I found it on YouTube if you'd like to hear it with your own ears.

Sind Blitze, sind Donner in Wolken verschwunden starts at 5.49. The "grand pause/caesura" is at 6.23.

Enjoy.

Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 1,067
old hand
Offline
old hand
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 1,067
Originally Posted By: Jackie
Hey, Pookie, welcome! You're only the second (identified) Tasmanian we've had on here. (paulb, are you still around?)


Thanks for the welcome. Really? Actually I'm an ex-patriate Sydneysider, but have had the operation to graft the second head and extra fingers on.

Pookie is the name of a character in a children's book. I'm THE Pook, which is different, like Winnie THE Pooh, but you can call me that if you like, I don't mind.

Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 11,613
Carpal Tunnel
Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 11,613
you can call me that if you like Thanks--I just thought it sounded friendly. And anybody from Tasmania gets an automatic yea/yay from me! paulb's a Lancastrian, himself. Must be a nice place to move to.

Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 6,511
Carpal Tunnel
Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 6,511
I know it well; have sung it many times. Well, the alto part in the chorus.

Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 6,511
Carpal Tunnel
Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 6,511
Welcome, Pookaroonie! I'm enjoying your posts.

Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 11,613
Carpal Tunnel
Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 11,613
Yeah, they are great, aren't they? But... Pookaroonie?! [raised eyebrow e]

Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 1,067
old hand
Offline
old hand
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 1,067
Or Launcestonian. I live about 65km (40 miles) from there.

Interesting how people in whatever forum I join just can't seem to resist creating cutesie diminutives from my name!

...and interesting how the word 'diminutive' refers to making something bigger, isn't it? That is, adding a suffix or prefix (or both) in order to show affection or familiarity. I wonder if this qualifies as one of those words with antonynomous usages discussed in that other thread?

Nobody ever guesses where my handle comes from either. But it's interesting hearing the conjectures as to its etymology.

This is my 25th post, do I get an award or something?

Last edited by The Pook; 02/22/08 12:44 AM.
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 11,613
Carpal Tunnel
Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 11,613
Nobody ever guesses where my handle comes from Kipling?

Your designation changes at 25 posts. Woo.

Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 1,067
old hand
Offline
old hand
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 1,067
Yep, I'm now a newbie (blows toy trumpet to celebrate). No it's nothing so grand as a literary allusion.

Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 7,210
Carpal Tunnel
Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 7,210
Originally Posted By: The Pook
Nobody ever guesses where my handle comes from either.


you're a non-aspiring ghost?


formerly known as etaoin...
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 557
M
addict
Offline
addict
M
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 557
a Xanth fan?

Joined: May 2005
Posts: 456
addict
Offline
addict
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 456
Originally Posted By: The Pook

Interesting how people in whatever forum I join just can't seem to resist creating cutesie diminutives from my name!


Must have heard Pookita by now but have any from Japan called you Pook-chan?

[Hoping to have guessed right about being a girlie.]


ÅΓª╥┐↕§
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 3,290
Carpal Tunnel
Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 3,290
interesting how the word 'diminutive' refers to making something bigger, isn't it?

Diminutive affixes indicate smallness (and in some languages, connotations of cuteness): e.g., Italian or Spanish -ino, German -chen. Augmentative affixes indicate bigness (and in some languages, pejorative connotations): e.g., Italian -one.


Ceci n'est pas un seing.
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 1,067
old hand
Offline
old hand
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 1,067
Originally Posted By: etaoin
Originally Posted By: The Pook
Nobody ever guesses where my handle comes from either.


you're a non-aspiring ghost?


Clever pun. No The Pook is not a non-aspirant non-aspirated Spook!

Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 1,067
old hand
Offline
old hand
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 1,067
Originally Posted By: zmjezhd
interesting how the word 'diminutive' refers to making something bigger, isn't it?

Diminutive affixes indicate smallness (and in some languages, connotations of cuteness): e.g., Italian or Spanish -ino, German -chen. Augmentative affixes indicate bigness (and in some languages, pejorative connotations): e.g., Italian -one.


Yes, that's interesting. Or like -shka -ski etc in Slavic languages.

The point I was making was that a 'diminutive' denotes not just the affix itself, but the resulting word, which is bigger than the word was before the affix was affixed. As in "Pookaroonie is a diminutive of Pook." It's an example of definition by usage. A diminutive has come to mean an affectionate nickname or something similar.

Regarding affixes and suffixes, I was always taught that an affix was a prefix and therefore the opposite of a suffix, which is added to the end of a word. But looking at the nearest dictionary to hand it seems that a prefix or a suffix is merely a subset of an affix, which is the term used to describe any addition to a word? How do others use those terms? And if this is so, does an affix include letters added in the middle of a word? Which would be called what? An infix?

This is getting too far off topic, so I have reposted it in the Wordplay and Fun section - perhaps best to reply there - sorry for hijacking the music question.

Last edited by The Pook; 02/23/08 01:11 AM.
Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 10,542
Carpal Tunnel
Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 10,542
>An infix?

yes

Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 3,290
Carpal Tunnel
Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 3,290
The Pook

I thought your nom-de-ouaibbe had something more to do with Puck or Pooka (Irish Púca), Kipling even, but then I am know to let my fancy fun away with my diminutive wit.


Ceci n'est pas un seing.
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 11,613
Carpal Tunnel
Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 11,613
diminutive wit As in, half-? [EG]

Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 1,773
Pooh-Bah
Offline
Pooh-Bah
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 1,773
Originally Posted By: The Pook
...I'm THE Pook ... like Winnie THE Pooh, but you can call me that if you like, I don't mind.


OK! "THE POOH" it is.

Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 3,290
Carpal Tunnel
Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 3,290
The point I was making was that a 'diminutive' denotes not just the affix itself, but the resulting word, which is bigger than the word was before the affix was affixed.

Yes, affixes are one way that (inflectional) languages go about created new words from old ones. In linguistics this is usually called derivational morphology to keep it separate from desinences which usually indicate case, number, gender, and other grammatical categories. The diminutive refers not to the affix or the word, but usually the referent.

An infix?

There are circumfixes, too.


Ceci n'est pas un seing.
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 3,290
Carpal Tunnel
Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 3,290
As in, half-?

Not quite synonymous, but that's kinda what.


Ceci n'est pas un seing.
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 1,067
old hand
Offline
old hand
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 1,067
Originally Posted By: zmjezhd
The Pook

I thought your nom-de-ouaibbe had something more to do with Puck or Pooka (Irish Púca), Kipling even, but then I am know to let my fancy fun away with my diminutive wit.


hahahahaha. I'm having fun with this. The real reason I am The Pook is much more mundane and unguessable than this.

um... Pardon MY diminutive wit, but what's a nom-de-ouaibbe? Never heard of a ouaibbe, but then I don't speak French.

Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 1,067
old hand
Offline
old hand
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 1,067
Originally Posted By: zmjezhd
The point I was making was that a 'diminutive' denotes not just the affix itself, but the resulting word, which is bigger than the word was before the affix was affixed.

The diminutive refers not to the affix or the word, but usually the referent.


Well, it refers also to the word in one sense, as in the word pookaroonie being a diminutive of the word pook. But the meaning of the word diminutive (in this context) comes from the referent if that's what you mean. It's called a diminutive not because it diminishes the word, but because it diminishes the person the word stands for. A nickname diminishes a person's social standing. It makes them lesser in relation to you.

A diminutive can be formed by changing or subtracting from a word as well by adding an affix. Bill is a diminutive of William. But Billy is a further diminutive of Bill.

I've copied this reply to the new thread, best to continue this interesting discussion there maybe?
http://wordsmith.org/board/ubbthreads.ph...true#Post173918

Last edited by The Pook; 02/23/08 03:40 AM.
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 3,290
Carpal Tunnel
Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 3,290
what's a nom-de-ouaibbe?

Bad transcription in vacan French of English web. Avatar, user id or name. That sort of thing.


Ceci n'est pas un seing.
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 3,290
Carpal Tunnel
Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 3,290
as in the word pookaroonie being a diminutive of the word pook

I'd read this as pookeroonie is the diminutive form of Pook.

A nickname diminishes a person's social standing. It makes them lesser in relation to you.

I'm sorry you took it that way. As mentioned before, a diminutive is often used as an affectionate hypocoristic form. It increases (or augments) your standing within the social group. Though, I'm sure if you take offense to a nickname, folks here-abouts will cease using it.


Ceci n'est pas un seing.
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 390
L
enthusiast
Offline
enthusiast
L
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 390
Originally Posted By: zmjezhd
as in the word pookaroonie being a diminutive of the word pook

I'd read this as pookeroonie is the diminutive form of Pook.

A nickname diminishes a person's social standing. It makes them lesser in relation to you.

I'm sorry you took it that way. As mentioned before, a diminutive is often used as an affectionate hypocoristic form. It increases (or augments) your standing within the social group.


Thanks for saying this. It expresses what I was thinking when I read Pook's words.

Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 11,613
Carpal Tunnel
Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 11,613
a diminutive is often used as an affectionate 'deed. :-)

[complete and total aside: I'm sitting here absolutely jamming to Split Enz' Spellbound. I looked up more of the discography/lyrics today; no wonder I couldn't understand this word: Taniwha!]

Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 1,067
old hand
Offline
old hand
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 1,067
Originally Posted By: Jackie
a diminutive is often used as an affectionate 'deed. :-)

[complete and total aside: I'm sitting here absolutely jamming to Split Enz' Spellbound. I looked up more of the discography/lyrics today; no wonder I couldn't understand this word: Taniwha!]


New Zealandish?

Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 390
L
enthusiast
Offline
enthusiast
L
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 390
Originally Posted By: Jackie
[color:#6600CC] Taniwha!


In Aotearoa, they even have the power to delay the building of roads.

Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 11,613
Carpal Tunnel
Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 11,613
New Zealandish? That's them! I went to see Tim Finn in concert last week.

In Aotearoa, they even have the power to delay the building of roads. I read that! I wish now that I'd looked that up before going to the concert: the young man playing guitar with him was at least part Maaori; MAN that kid could riff!

Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 2,891
B
Carpal Tunnel
Offline
Carpal Tunnel
B
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 2,891
>>>Affectionate diminutive

Aye, I think most diminutive use is affectionate.

A diminutive used to demean or diminish someone is very evident; there is no misconstruing it.

For example, Fred and William are in an argument that is getting heated. Fred, in an agressive, angry or baiting tone says, "listen up Billy boy" when he would generally refer to William as Bill. In that case, Billy boy is a diminutive.


If you're very sensitive about it Pook, you might want to let us know since the moniker you chose is one that invites cute add-ons and you seemed genial enough, so it is not surprising that folks would greet you affectionately.

Also, throwing out a challenge as to discovering the provenence of the name seemed playful, and an invitation to cameraderie. Again, if we were mistaken, then it would be good to know.

Last edited by belMarduk; 02/24/08 04:42 PM.
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 1,067
old hand
Offline
old hand
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 1,067
1. No I'm not sensitive. It is after all, not my name, but just a handle, and yes it was a playful gesture.
2. You misunderstood what I said about diminutives applying to the referent by diminishing them socially. That's not the same as demeaning someone. Even an affectionate nickname reduces, minimises, the social distance between you and the one the diminutive is applied to. It puts them on the same level as you. Whether this is rude or not depends on the ACTUAL relationship between the people. If you were to go up to the President of the USA (assuming you are not known to him) and say "Hey Georgie baby!" it probably would be taken as inappropriate.

But let me make it quite clear - you may desecrate my handle in any way you wish and it won't upset me.

Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 876
old hand
Offline
old hand
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 876
You guys are so funny!

Pook, I understood your point right away, and it is funny how that works. The diminutive applied to my handle is usually "two", so it actually is smaller...

You are all welcome to guess from where mine originates (desecration optional...)! ;0)

A pause in music is called, simply, a "rest". A rest of four bars (or longer), is called "longa", but you won't hear it used much (the term, that is).

Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803
Carpal Tunnel
Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803
Two Sleepy People
By dawn's early light,
And too much in love
To say, "Good night."

Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 11,613
Carpal Tunnel
Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 11,613
[impressed e]

Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803
Carpal Tunnel
Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803
Originally Posted By: twosleepy


A pause in music is called, simply, a "rest". A rest of four bars (or longer), is called "longa", but you won't hear it used much (the term, that is).


But a rest is not necessarily a dramatic silence; it might apply only to one voice. The triangle part in Die Walküre, for example, is nothing but rests, a hyperlonga, if you will, but it hardly qualifies as a dramatic silence.

Page 1 of 6 1 2 3 4 5 6

Moderated by  Jackie 

Link Copied to Clipboard
Forum Statistics
Forums16
Topics13,912
Posts229,283
Members9,179
Most Online3,341
Dec 9th, 2011
Newest Members
TRIALNERRA, befuddledmind, KILL_YOUR_SUV, Heather_Turey, Standy
9,179 Registered Users
Who's Online Now
0 members (), 444 guests, and 3 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Top Posters(30 Days)
Top Posters
wwh 13,858
Faldage 13,803
Jackie 11,613
tsuwm 10,542
wofahulicodoc 10,510
LukeJavan8 9,916
AnnaStrophic 6,511
Wordwind 6,296
of troy 5,400
Disclaimer: Wordsmith.org is not responsible for views expressed on this site. Use of this forum is at your own risk and liability - you agree to hold Wordsmith.org and its associates harmless as a condition of using it.

Home | Today's Word | Yesterday's Word | Subscribe | FAQ | Archives | Search | Feedback
Wordsmith Talk | Wordsmith Chat

© 1994-2024 Wordsmith

Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5