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The problem is that language like this is often either imprecise or incorrect.
The woman's sentence is neither imprecise nor incorrect. I don't happen to speak like her, but I understand precisely what she's trying to say. Her grammar simply permits double, and no doubt triple, negatives to have strong negative meaning. Whereas, if some pedant intones, "He was not unkind." which is a double negative it has a slightly stronger positive meaning. One hears grammatical and inprecise sentences all the time. Grammar is not a magic salve for imprecision.
[Editted to complette a sentence fragment.]
Last edited by zmjezhd; 01/27/06 03:58 PM.
Ceci n'est pas un seing.
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Well said, nuncle - I was getting lazy about being bothered to argue with that tosh, er alternate view 
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The woman's speech was entirely appropriate for the circumstances. There are cases where imprecision is okay. This case is closer to what I'm getting at than the "where does a preposition go" case is. All I can say is that I've been in conversations with women like this - and I've heard conversations among men and women like this that were almost as funny as a "who's on first" routine. Sometimes that's okay. Sometimes it makes communication much less effective than it otherwise might have been.
"Grammar is not a magic salve for imprecision."
In fact, it's possible that using perfect grammar can impede effective communication. It's possible, but not so common as the case of using improper grammar, I think.
I'm reminded of the cases where I'm tutoring and I ask the students to explain a certain idea - and I'm sure to correct them and to coax them into repeating the explanation correctly - both so that they are using the correct terminology and so that they understand how to think about the problem correctly.
Learning grammar is a good thing. I'm glad - grateful even - for what grammar skills I possess. Sometimes precision in language is unnecessary - particularly in English with all its redundancy. And sometimes it's crucial.
If the primary purpose of communication is simply to identify one's self as part of a particular group, then the lack of precision is fine. In some cases, even a slight difference in vocabulary or sentence structure can alter the meaning dramatically.
I've seen cases where a very slight difference in wording on a briefing slide is the difference between a 3 month project and a 3 year project. Many times when I've been asked to review technical papers, I've had problems with people reporting what they think they did. I try to tell them, "No, that's not what you did. You're confusing the issue."
"Well, the customer knows what I did."
"But people other than your customer are going to read this and come to erroneous conclusions about what you did and what can be deduced from it."
and so on.
I'm not saying that one has to use perfect grammar all the time or that one has to forget whatever "natural" grammar one possesses. But expecting students to use only the grammar they learn at home (and that seems like the case you're making) makes about as much sense as expecting students to use only the math they learn at home.
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But expecting students to use only the grammar they learn at home (and that seems like the case you're making) makes about as much sense as expecting students to use only the math they learn at home.
I expect students to learn the grammar of standard English if they are to make it through school and university, but then I am a teacher as well as a writer. I don't suggest that one's native dialect, (which it is important to stress has a perfectly good and learnable, yet different from the standard's, grammar), is the one to use in writing an essay or one's thesis. Rather than trying to coerce a person, who only speaks the dialect they learned at home, with imprecise statements about their grammar being incorrect and/or imprecise, you would be going far to point out to them, that they need to learn to write, and to a lesser degree to read, standard (US / UK) English. There's a vast difference between telling somebody that they have no grammar, and telling them that they have to, in effect, learn a new language, with different grammatical rules. And they have to learn when and where to use their different languages / dialects / registers. That's all I'm saying. Many people are incabable of telling a coherent story, but that has little to do with their grammar, but their story-telling skills. This is the problem I have with most grammar mavens, that while I've spent a goodly part of my academic and post-academic life reading about languages and linguistics, they cannot be bothered with learning a bit more about language and linguistics, than what is presented in their old-fashioned and out-dated manuals of usage. That's all I'm saying.
Ceci n'est pas un seing.
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"This is the problem I have with most grammar mavens, that while I've spent a goodly part of my academic and post-academic life reading about languages and linguistics, they cannot be bothered with learning a bit more about language and linguistics, than what is presented in their old-fashioned and out-dated manuals of usage. That's all I'm saying. "
Then I think we agree. I've said similar things in the past, but not this exact point. I don't think I know enough about grammar to correct mavens. But I do understand well - and have believed for a long time - that sometimes gratuitously following rules can lead to ineffective communication. On the one hand, making a case for using imperfect grammar can sound like sour grapes coming from someone like myself who is not an expert in the subject. On the other hand, one has to make some effort to communicate effectively in some circumstances - and it has to go beyond the rules. Even if one were intimately acquainted with all of the rules, one couldn't assume that the person at the other end of the ether is equally familiar.
Some time ago I wrote a post about an acquaintance of mine who fancied himself an editor. One of his pasttimes was editing famous works of authors. He could take any piece of beautiful and perfectly understandable prose and turn it into a list of words that conveyed no more meaning than a list of physical properties would convey about one's perceptions of a rose. You know that scene in "The Joy Luck Club" where the boyfriend puts a bunch of soy sauce on the mother's best dish and thinks he's fixed it? That's how we felt as we read his edits. The first time I told this story I left out a detail - his additional commentaries were very enlightening and worth reading. It's strictly his edits that I had made us squirm.
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years ago, a friend of mine (then teaching chemistry) failed a student for a poorly presented answer on chemisty lab reports
his attitude was this was perfectly valid, well written lab reports made the science clear, (and would allow other to verify the results. he maintained English classes existed exclusively to teach grammer so students could write clear and concise lab reports... (the english department was thrilled with this idea, but.. they backed up him and when the student appealed to the english department!)
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My husband's sister was teaching a science course at the university level. One of her students said, in class, "Why should we have to write good English - this is a science class." Her response was that language was the best communication tool we had, so they had better learn to use it.
I have one employee who says things like: "So he's like 'why can't I put this fish in with that one?' and I'm like 'Because that one will eat this one'" I grit my teeth because she's good enough in the store that I can put up with her speech. I also like her. But I would never? Hire someone? Who put four question marks? In every sentence?
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there have been studies about womans (vs men's speach) habits, and somem woman tend to phrase every statement (even ones they are sure of, like "my name is X" with rising tone --which is generally used in spoken english (Not generally a tonal language) to indicate a question.
Its more common in certain economic groups, but its not totally an economic pattern--it can be found at all social and economic levels.
when made aware of it, most of the woman were able to change their speech pattern.. at least for the sort term, while being studied.. but many woman relapsed back into the same pattern (when there was a follow up interview some months later)
I am going to the store now, is a statement.
but make the statement with a rising tone, and it sounds like a question..and as a question, its less assertive, (less threating to the what they beleive to be the established powers that they must obey?--its becomes a way of looking for approval.) it reflects insecurity on the part of the speaker.
we have come a long way baby, but there are still pockets of society that want to keep woman down on farm, barefoot and pregnant.. and girls raised in that sort of cultural norm tend to use the questioning habit of speaking. they feel uncomfortable making any statement. so everything they say becomes a question. It frustrating to deal with. and can become an entrenched habit.
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Pooh-Bah
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Quote:
but make the statement with a rising tone, and it sounds like a question..and as a question, its less assertive, (less threating to the what they beleive to be the established powers that they must obey?--its becomes a way of looking for approval.) it reflects insecurity on the part of the speaker.
Well that's one interpretation of why a rising inflection is sometimes used. Another theory that I have read is that it is a way to assess the attention of the listener. The rising tone invites an interjected "uh-huh" or some other sign of attention. So in a way the rising tone is asking a question, one which is separate from the "plaintext" of the speech: are you listening?
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Quote:
we have come a long way baby, but there are still pockets of society that want to keep woman down on farm, barefoot and pregnant.. and girls raised in that sort of cultural norm tend to use the questioning habit of speaking. they feel uncomfortable making any statement. so everything they say becomes a question. It frustrating to deal with. and can become an entrenched habit.
Ha.
Methinks, Hellen, that you underestimate your fellow womenkind.
The nuances of language are such that anyone's pat explaination of the subtlety expressed by the female when she is talking is wrong. The female is the driving evolutionary force of our species and her edicts determine all future human events. Be not mistaken, her words are complicated and pragmatic and her meaning is determined by the nonce. The wise man soon learns not to think in manthink but to simply react to the female's whims and hope for the best.
But the rare woman who stoops to use logic is even more out-of-whack. She is a Luciano Pavarotti taking lessons to learn how to grunt like a pig.
Girlthink about it. A woman who corrals kids of both kinds for the most part of her adult life might need to effect a rise in tone at the end of a sentence in order to threaten "are you listening?" . 
Or did I misunderstand your point?
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