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Does anyone have any information on this phrase?
Specifically ~
1. is it common in your area of the world?
ii. does it have any particular connotations, such as humour or sarcasm or anything else?
c. do you know anything about its origin?
The subject cropped up in another place and I was very surprised how little I could find on it - be grateful to hear what all y'all can add!
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We use it around my neck of the woods all the time. It's used in a light-hearted manner heavily tinged with seriousness. No idea where it's from but I'll bet the good folks at wordorigins would be able to dredge up an answer or two. http://p066.ezboard.com/bwordoriginsorgRegistration required to post. Oh, and the reason it sounded funny just came to me. Around here it's "a gentleman and a scholar."
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“The soul of Honor, the soldier, scholar and gentleman. He did his duty and is at rest.” At the dedication Speech of another Meade Memorial in Washington DC in October 1927, President Calvin Coolidge honored Meade, “Like most great soldiers he was devoted to peace not war........... The conflict in which he took such an important part has long since passed away. The peace which he loved has come. The reconciliation which he sought is complete. The loyalty to the flag which he followed is universal. Through all of this shines his own immortal fame.” General George Gordon Meade, who won the greatest and most famous battle of the Civil War has long been overshadowed in history by the more romantic and exciting personalities of his peers. “The Soul Of Honor” is my tribute to General George Gordon Meade and my attempt to secure General Meade’s heroic and rightful place in the annuls of the War of the Rebellion and the history of the United States of America. General A. S. Webb referred to General Meade as, “The soul of honor, the soldier, scholar and gentleman”. http://www.paulmartinart.com/SoulOfHonor.htmlAbout General Alexander Stewart Webb: "Hancock later said, at a toast, "In every battle and on every important field there is one spot to which every army [officer] would wish to be assigned--the spot upon which centers the fortunes of the field. There was but one such spot at Gettysburg and it fell to the lot of Gen'l Webb to have it and hold it and for holding it he must receive the credit due him." In the surge of adulation after Gettysburg, Webb received command of the division six weeks later and led it through the fall campaigns. http://www.rocemabra.com/~roger/tagg/generals/general11.html
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My mom uses the expression in a complimentary way. I'd assumed the source was Shakespeare, but Bartlett's attributes the origin to Rabbie Burns: His locked, lettered, braw brass collar
Showed him the gentleman and scholar.http://www.bartleby.com/100/315.17.html
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I'm no help on the origin, but I, too, would say a gentleman and a scholar. usually used in a respectful, complimentary way, with a bit of laughing twinkle in the eyes thrown in for good measure.
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Around here it's "a gentleman and a scholar."
If Robert Burns is the original popularizer of this expression, as ASp has so usefully pointed out, then the British influence in the original Thirteen Colonies might explain why "a gentleman and a scholar" is more familiar in Faldage's hereabouts than it is elsewhere in America.
It would seem likely that the hero of the Battle of Gettysburg [at least in the North], General A. S. Webb, popularized the variant "a scholar and a gentleman".
It reminds me of John F. Kennedy's use of Gandhi's aphorism "Ask not what your country can do for you ...". No doubt, if there is any variation between the two aphorisms, JFK's variation will prevail in America [if not throughout the world, considering his trail-blazing mastery of the new media of television].
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I've only heard it as "a gentleman and a scholar", here in the Upper Midwest. Often said without irony.. often with.
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Here in North East we tend toward Gentleman and Scholar ... I use it in a most complimentary way ... not many young Gentlemen and Scholars around these days (present company excepted) so it has fallen a bit out of fashion. However, when I use it there is no confusion as to how it's meant and its use occasions thoughtful nods.
Here's an idea ! Whom would you nominate - in the present public arena - as a Scholar and Gentleman?
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I first heard, regularly, from a teacher whom I had for a couple of years between 11 and 13. He always used it as a compliment, but with a slightly amused sparkle in his eyes. Since then, I have used it myself often.
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laughing twinkle, slightly amused sparkle. sounds about right. 
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I've just realised that I've heard and used this phrase t'other way round, gentleman first.
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[fwiw]
a gentleman and a scholar ~ 11.9kg
a scholar and a gentleman ~ 5.2kg
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Does anyone have any information on this phrase?It occurs to me, Maverick, that there could be an explanation for the variations between "scholar and gentleman" and "gentleman and scholar" which has nothing to do with geography. The writer or speaker could simply be indicating which of the two attributes, scholar or gentlemen, he esteems most highly in the person he is honoring. Many can achieve a distinguished reputation as a "gentleman" - it is more of a habit or a cultivated taste than an art - but few can achieve a reputation as a distinguished scholar. I'm not exactly sure what a "gentleman" is, let alone a "perfect gentleman", but if Einstein was a distinguished gentleman in Robert Burns' day, even Robert Burns would call him a "scholar and a gentleman".
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When I was in college at what was then a very small offshoot of U. Va, but which is now coming into its own as a major university, our Dean of Students was a charming but somewhat pompous fellow by the name of Halcott Mebane (call me Meb) Turner (of the North Carolina Mebanes, thank yew!) often referred to himself as an athlete, a gentleman, and a scholar, but not necessarily in that order.
Whence came my diagnosis of pomposity. Meb went on to become the President of the University of Baltimore and contributed greatly to the resurgence of that institution; I think I read just recently that he had retired with many accolades after hmmm 34 or 35 years of dedicated service there,
I wonder if Bobyoungbalt knows of him.
TEd
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The predominant order around this area is, ‘a gentleman and a scholar’.
Perhaps it is only my perception, but every time I’ve heard the phrase used, it was always as flattery: not really sincere, but not mocking, either. The act that prompted the use of the phrase never seemed to match, or call for, such a descriptive or labeling response either. For example: “Mary asked me to give this box to you.” To which one replies, “Thank you. You’re a gentleman and a scholar.”
Huh? How does delivering a box make one either a gentleman or a scholar?
If the phrase is truly used to describe a person, and not merely the half-hearted, flattering act of one parroting a handy phrase that’s similar to something written by a well-known author, why hasn’t the phrase, ‘a lady and a scholar’, or ‘a scholar and a lady’ become as equally popular? Are female scholars not every bit as scholarly as male scholars?
Whom would you nominate - in the present public arena - as a Scholar and Gentleman?
Hmmm. That’s a tough one, wow. I’m not sure any of us knows anyone in the public arena well enough to make a valid assessment. Judging only by what I’ve seen on TV etc., of various people, the only name I can come up with as being a scholar and a gentleman is Bill Moyers. He seems to be fairly scholarly, and has always appeared to me to behave in a gentlemanly manner. The only person springing immediately to mind as a lady and a scholar is Dr. Mae Jemison.
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Bill Moyers
excellent choice.
it also makes me think of the Dalai Lama, and Thich Nhat Han, but that got me thinking about the term "gentleman" being too Occidental?
formerly known as etaoin...
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the term "gentleman" being too Occidental
That’s a good point, etaoin. Even within our own Western culture I think we could find several debatable nuances of the words ‘gentleman’ and ’scholar’.
If we accept that the concept of ‘gentleman’ has a theoretical ideal (please forgive the mixing of philosophies and cultures) that transcends Occidental and Oriental, and the like, Thich Nhat Han would be, in my mind, something akin to the quintessential gentleman – perhaps a Bodhisattva of gentlemen, if you will. I’m sure he would also qualify as a gentleman as far as our general, Western definition of ‘gentleman’ is concerned, too. Certainly, his academic achievements would qualify him as a scholar.
Regarding the Dalai Lama, I think the word in question would be ‘scholar’. If we accept that the concept of ‘scholar’ has a theoretical ideal (again, forgive me), which encompasses all knowledge (assuming the concept of ‘knowledge’ has a theoretical ideal, which encompasses all possible knowledge, known and unknown, accepted and unaccepted, proven and yet-to-be proven), then in my mind, the Dalai Lama is most definitely a scholar. He is certainly a gentleman, in both the Western sense and the ideal sense.
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Thanks, all - some very interesting responses.
fwiw, I too have heard and used both variants - interesting thought, plute, that it could be a question of which attribute is thought to carry most hono(u)r. I think, too, that there was a definite English class-system loading in the phrase: someone was either a gentleman or a member of the ghastly hoi polloi... ;) And that was true of students at Oxford and Cambridge too.
Yep, the Rabbie quote was the one that prompted my original turning to sources, and given that I had believed it to have earlier antecedents I was surprised by the paucity of information I could find. Yes, I'll try W/O Fong - is it Dr Techie who has access to a corporal data search tool for millions of US literary sources?
I think the consensus view emerging ~ that the phrase or a variant is typically used as a genuine compliment, with a self-deprecating edge of twinkling irony inherent in the over-mannered construction ~ represents all the typical occasions I have heard it used.
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fwinw, here's my original thought on the phrase: Does not the concept predate this particular usage? I thought it was a commonplace amongst the classically-rooted English writers of the 17th century. For an example of the underlying concept if not the specific phrase, I’ve previously come across a reference by Robert Burton, dated 1621, as follows: "To say the best of this profession, I can give no other testimony of them in general, than that of Pliny of Isaeus: 'He is yet a scholar, than which kind of men there is nothing so simple, so sincere, none better;' they are most part harmless, honest, upright, innocent, plain-dealing men." Info on Burton fwiw: http://14.1911encyclopedia.org/B/BU/BURTON_ROBERT.htmIn a similar vein Izaak Walton wrote to his son at Oxford about a dream he had of “five townsmen and poor scholars” robbing the University – the apposition of ‘townsman’ and ‘gentleman’ is tacit. Andrew Lang in his ‘Introduction to the Compleat Angler’ has also remarked that Walton’s famous work leans on the earlier ‘A Treatise of the Nature of God’ (London, 1599). The Treatise starts with a conversation between a gentleman and a scholar: Gent. Well overtaken, sir! Scholar. You are welcome, gentleman. (Andrew Lang’s work can be found on the Guttenberg resource, Etext #2422)
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it also makes me think of the Dalai Lama, and Thich Nhat Han, but that got me thinking about the term "gentleman" being too Occidental?
Years ago, I heard that the term "wog", which sounds racist, actually stands for "western oriental gentleman".
If so, the sound of the acronym has contaminated its meaning, and it is just as well that the term has fallen out of use. [At least, I think it has fallen out of use. Is it still in use anywhere?]
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wog sounds racist because it is racist: slang.
[Origin uncertain: often said to be an acronym, but none of the many suggested etymologies is satisfactorily supported by the evidence.]
1. A vulgarly offensive name for a foreigner, esp. one of Arab extraction.
1929 F. C. BOWEN Sea Slang 153 Wogs, lower class Babu shipping clerks on the Indian coast. 1932 R. J. P. HEWISON Essay on Oxford 5 And here the Ethiop ranks, the wogs, we spy. 1937 F. STARK Baghdad Sketches 90 When I return, Nasir fixed me with real malignity in his little placid eyes. ‘I knew she wanted me to go,’ he said. ‘I could see what she was thinking. They call us wogs.’ 1942 C. HOLLINGWORTH German Just behind Me xiii. 258 King Zog Was always considered a bit of a Wog, Until Mussolini quite recently Behaved so indecently. 1944 [see COME v. 39e]. 1955 E. WAUGH Officers & Gentlemen II. 323 He turned up in western Abyssinia leading a group of wogs. 1958 Times Lit. Suppl. 11 Apr. p. vi/3 We have travelled some distance from the days when Wogs began at Calais. 1965 [see COMMIE]. 1982 J. SAVARIN Water Hole I. iv. 42 He hated Arabs... They were all wogs to him. OED2 earlier than the known wog citations, Joyce used the word "wogger" in Ulysses, in one of his run-on chapters; but who knows what he meant. AHD and M-W guess that it's short for golliwog. http://www.bartleby.com/61/66/G0186600.html
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Thanks for the report, tsuwm.
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“Mary asked me to give this box to you.” To which one replies, “Thank you. You’re a gentleman and a scholar.”
The non-sequiturial nature of the reply dovetails with the tinkle-in-the-eye part of the phrase. I've heard it used often with the mock-flattering, mock-self-aggrandizing "You're a gentleman and a scholar, and there's only a few of us left!"
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I'm sorry, but a tinkle-in-the-eye sounds like something other than mock-flattery to me!
:0)
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I'm sorry, but a tinkle-in-the-eye sounds like something other than mock-flattery to me!
Oops! 'Twould have been better had I mis-typed it as twinke instead. At least that way I could have pretended I meant it all along as a subtle Season's Greeting...
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I widened my search criteria to explore concepts such as "gentleman scholar and found --- Confucian ideals; and whilst I have no knowledge of the underlying language, it would seem the idea of 'gentleman' is one that is far from only occidental
Could we go so far as to say that our Western ideal of a "gentleman scholar" and the Confucian ideal of a "gentleman scholar" are "co-occidental", Maverick?
It is interesting that the Orient meditated on the meaning of "gentleman scholar" centuries before we began to use it, and still use it to this day, without any particular meditation on its meaning [at least until you meditated upon its meaning].
Extract from your last link:
"In the Korean tradition, for example, the plum, orchid, chrysanthemum, and bamboo are popularly known as the "Four Gentlemen," for each is said to embody the noble qualities of the ideal Confucian gentleman-scholar. Because they survive the harsh winter months, the pine, bamboo, and Chinese plum (Prunus mume) symbolize strength in the face of adversity and are referred to collectively in Chinese art and literature as the "Three Friends of Winter." Flowers affiliated with the four seasons and twelve months are pervasive themes in East Asian art."
Thanks for the excursion, Maverick. Most enlightening.
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heh, yes, a happy co-occident :)
It seems there are at least four connotations of the term 'gentleman scholar, from what I can see:
1. 16th – 17th – 18th century English, referring to someone who was a student but a member of the social elite, therefore accorded social privileges not granted to other students who lacked that rank
2. 19th century English/American, similar to previous general sense but shading towards describing someone who was a wealthy patron of study, in effect an ‘amateur expert’ who had followed their passion for a subject even if lacking formal foundations of the discipline
3. 20th century English/American, similar to previous general sense but shading towards describing someone who was either a bit of a maverick in contrast to established university power structures or else a dedicated professional who put the ideals of learning above the internal wranglings of their profession (general connotation of unworldliness)
4. the Confucian ideal already referred to, which I suspect may have partly informed the Victorian era’s understanding of the term, though I could not confirm this without much more study
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from ElizaD on wordorigins: "A translation of Boccaccio's Decameron - 1620 (apparently) by John Florio: And therefore I pray thee, lot in respect of any love which thou canst pretend to beare me; but for regard of thine owne selfe, being a Gentleman and a Scholler, that this punishment which thou hast already inflicted upon me, may suffice for or my former injuries towards theehttp://www.intratext.com/IXT/ENG0885/_P2J.HTM[and] "An antedate from apparently about 1587 (the dating is unclear, but apparently in 1592 Thomas Kyd's The Spanish Tragedie was enjoying some popularity):" I tell you, lordings, It was determined to haue
beene acted, By gentlemen and schollers too, Such as could tell what to speakhttp://www.classic-literature.co.uk/british-authors/16th-century/thomas-kyd/the-spanish-tragedie/ebook-page-30.asphttp://www.bartleby.com/215/0717.html
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Nice job, Maverick. Charles Darwin (1809-1882) fits the bill perfectly of a "gentleman scholar" of the Victorian era (1837-1901). He was born into "the Shropshire gentry", he self-financed his voyage aboard the Beagle, and he married into even more wealth. But once Darwin had developed his 'revolutionary' theory of natural selection, he agonized for years about publishing it. "From Darwin: The Man and His Legacy" - BBC"Darwin's social perceptions and evolution's use by the rioters - to smash Anglican thraldom - provide the telling backdrop to this illness and publishing delay. Loss of social standing was a very real threat to a Victorian gentleman. ----------- Darwin's reform of Nature -- was essentially complete. He sketched out his theory. But with the country reeling from pro-democracy, anti-workhouse riots it was no time for a gentleman to go public. Atheistic Red Lamarckians were jailed as subversives. Darwin's Cambridge divines derided their views as foul. Sedgwick saw evolutionists threatening the whole Anglican paternalist status quo. Hadn't Darwin, the impeccable old-boy, secretly jotted: 'Once grant that species...pass into each other....& whole [Creationist] fabric totters & falls'? What then of Establishment Anglican power?"From this life of Darwin, Maverick, as told by the BBC, I conclude that the gentleman-scholars of Darwin's day were a breed apart ["the Anglican paternalist status quo"] and they owed nothing of their high-minded, privileged sensibilities to the Confucian ideal. http://www.bbc.co.uk/education/darwin/leghist/desmond.htm
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It was determined to haue beene acted, By gentlemen and schollers too
It isn't clear to me that the gentlemen and schollers are necessarily the same people in this citation.
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It isn't clear to me that the gentlemen and schollers are necessarily the same people in this citation.Quite true, Faldage. But it is a worthy bit of research, nonetheless, wouldn't you agree, because it suggests that scholars were esteemed as highly as gentlemen in the 1590s, tho I grant it may have been a truly exceptional thing back then to find one and the other embodied in the same individual. Which raises another question, perhaps. Back then, in the 1590s, the only scholars may have been monks. If so, were scholars esteemed for their scholarship, or for their scholarly pursuits in the livery of the church? What we need to know is when it became honourable [or fashionable] for a gentleman to pursue studies in the manner of a scholar, rather than simply idle his time away with drinking, and wenching and running with the hounds, or hounding poachers. I hazard a guess that this day emerged during the reign of Elizabeth I [at least in England], and that, if any single date could be fixed for its inauguration, it would be the day when Lord Francis Bacon, "the father of modern science", published his pivotal work* displaying a ship seabound at the Pillars of Hercules** accompanied by the legend "Plus ultra"***. * "Novum Organum", 1620 [during the reign of James I] http://fly.hiwaay.net/%7Epaul/bacon/organum/preface.html** "Pillars of Hercules" is the ancient name given to the promontories that flank the entrance to the Straits of Gibraltar. [According to ancient tradition, these Pillars marked the end of the world.] *** The Masonic term "Plus Ultra" ("more beyond") appears on a banner between two pillars (representing Masonry) in an emblem from Whitney's Choice of Emblems (1586). (Bacon is said to have published this book.) http://www.sirbacon.org/links/whitneyemblem.htmlFor the frontispiece itself, see: http://www.crs4.it/Ars/arshtml/conclusion1.htmlThe Latin quotation at the foot of the waves, taken from the Book of Daniel, reads: "Many will pass through and knowledge will be increased."
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necessarily the same people
True, but the two terms' conjunction in the original saying under discusion preserves this separate identity as well... when you say to someone that they are a scholar and a gentleman, the layers of irony available surely stem from just this implication ~ that many are one but not the other! :)
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that many are one but not the other! :)
Many are culled before any are called, one or the other. :)
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that many are one but not the other! :)
True enough, Maverick, there are scoundrels among scholars just are in the general population. A gentleman, on the other hand, is understood to have some intellect, although not necessarily an abundance of it.
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that many are one but not the other! :)
True enough, Maverick. There are scoundrels among scholars just as there are in the general population. A gentleman, on the other hand, is understood to have some intellect, although not necessarily an abundance of it.
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quoting again from the same tome (blatant crossthread):
..Charles II had kicked out the Puritan scholars who had nested there [Trinity College] under Wilkens and replaced 'em with Cavaliers who could be best described as gentleman-scholars--in that order.
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A gentleman, on the other hand, is understood to have some intellect, although not necessarily an abundance of it.
e.g. Bertie Wooster?
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e.g. Bertie Wooster?
Yeah, like Bertie Wooster. :)
Extract from "Jeeves and Wooster" - Summary:
"Bertie Wooster (Hugh Laurie) is a 'young gentleman' of limited intellect who has a tendency to get into 'scrapes'.
His manservant, Jeeves (Stephen Fry), on the other hand, is a man of 'considerable brain' who can usually be relied on to come up with a way of getting Bertie out of trouble or rescuing him from the clutches of some 'unsuitable' female or other."
http://www.phill.co.uk/comedy/jeeves/
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I have the entire Fry and Laurie series of Jeeves and Wooster episodes on DVD and would often prefer to watch one of those than anything else on my one-hundred-channel broadcast television set.
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Carpal Tunnel
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OP
Carpal Tunnel
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gentleman, on the other hand, is understood to have some intellect, although not necessarily an abundance of it.
I would have said the standard English sense is quite the opposite of this, actually - and that yes, Wooster is the archetypal brainless loon representative of the inbred chinless aristocracy (delightfully harmless for all that!) who is extricated from his own ineptitude by the machinations of the studious Jeeves. Hence the layers of irony implicit, including "you are not only a gentleman, but a scholar (even though you're wealthy enough to pay someone else to do it for you!)"
I'm with you, Father Steve - except I drag a volume from the shelves rather than the wonderful Fry & Laurie interpretations.
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Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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>I'm with you, Father Steve - except I drag a volume from the shelves rather than the wonderful Fry & Laurie interpretations.
While I must take a trip to my local bibliotheque for either. It must be about time I paid another visit to the Empress of Blandings.
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Joined: Sep 2000
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Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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Like Mav and Max, I enjoy many of Wodehouse's books and stories in print. In addition, my sweet bride presented me with a new biography of Wodehouse by Robert McRum called Wodehouse: A Life (Norton, 2004). I intend to remain married to so fine a woman as this.
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Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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tinkle-in-the-eye...a subtle Season's Greeting Oh, HA! It's been too long since this place made me laugh out loud. That was great--thanks!
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Joined: Sep 2000
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Carpal Tunnel
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OP
Carpal Tunnel
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> the layers of irony implicit, including "you are not only a gentleman, but a scholar (even though you're wealthy enough to pay someone else to do it for you!)" fwiw, I found another usage example that tends to support this idea:
JEREMY
Sir, I have the seeds of rhetoric and oratory in my head: I have been at Cambridge.
TATTLE
Ay; 'tis well enough for a servant to be bred at an university: but the education is a little too pedantic for a gentleman. I hope you are secret in your nature: private, close, ha?William Congreve, Love for Love (1695) http://www.classicreader.com/read.php/sid./bookid.1567/sec.68/Gutenburg: http://www.gutenberg.org/etext/1244
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