|
|
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 3,230
Carpal Tunnel
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 3,230 |
I've just realised that I've heard and used this phrase t'other way round, gentleman first.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 10,542
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 10,542 |
[fwiw]
a gentleman and a scholar ~ 11.9kg
a scholar and a gentleman ~ 5.2kg
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 1,385
veteran
|
|
veteran
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 1,385 |
Does anyone have any information on this phrase?It occurs to me, Maverick, that there could be an explanation for the variations between "scholar and gentleman" and "gentleman and scholar" which has nothing to do with geography. The writer or speaker could simply be indicating which of the two attributes, scholar or gentlemen, he esteems most highly in the person he is honoring. Many can achieve a distinguished reputation as a "gentleman" - it is more of a habit or a cultivated taste than an art - but few can achieve a reputation as a distinguished scholar. I'm not exactly sure what a "gentleman" is, let alone a "perfect gentleman", but if Einstein was a distinguished gentleman in Robert Burns' day, even Robert Burns would call him a "scholar and a gentleman". 
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 3,467
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 3,467 |
When I was in college at what was then a very small offshoot of U. Va, but which is now coming into its own as a major university, our Dean of Students was a charming but somewhat pompous fellow by the name of Halcott Mebane (call me Meb) Turner (of the North Carolina Mebanes, thank yew!) often referred to himself as an athlete, a gentleman, and a scholar, but not necessarily in that order.
Whence came my diagnosis of pomposity. Meb went on to become the President of the University of Baltimore and contributed greatly to the resurgence of that institution; I think I read just recently that he had retired with many accolades after hmmm 34 or 35 years of dedicated service there,
I wonder if Bobyoungbalt knows of him.
TEd
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 176
member
|
|
member
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 176 |
The predominant order around this area is, ‘a gentleman and a scholar’.
Perhaps it is only my perception, but every time I’ve heard the phrase used, it was always as flattery: not really sincere, but not mocking, either. The act that prompted the use of the phrase never seemed to match, or call for, such a descriptive or labeling response either. For example: “Mary asked me to give this box to you.” To which one replies, “Thank you. You’re a gentleman and a scholar.”
Huh? How does delivering a box make one either a gentleman or a scholar?
If the phrase is truly used to describe a person, and not merely the half-hearted, flattering act of one parroting a handy phrase that’s similar to something written by a well-known author, why hasn’t the phrase, ‘a lady and a scholar’, or ‘a scholar and a lady’ become as equally popular? Are female scholars not every bit as scholarly as male scholars?
Whom would you nominate - in the present public arena - as a Scholar and Gentleman?
Hmmm. That’s a tough one, wow. I’m not sure any of us knows anyone in the public arena well enough to make a valid assessment. Judging only by what I’ve seen on TV etc., of various people, the only name I can come up with as being a scholar and a gentleman is Bill Moyers. He seems to be fairly scholarly, and has always appeared to me to behave in a gentlemanly manner. The only person springing immediately to mind as a lady and a scholar is Dr. Mae Jemison.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 7,210
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 7,210 |
Bill Moyers
excellent choice.
it also makes me think of the Dalai Lama, and Thich Nhat Han, but that got me thinking about the term "gentleman" being too Occidental?
formerly known as etaoin...
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 176
member
|
|
member
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 176 |
the term "gentleman" being too Occidental
That’s a good point, etaoin. Even within our own Western culture I think we could find several debatable nuances of the words ‘gentleman’ and ’scholar’.
If we accept that the concept of ‘gentleman’ has a theoretical ideal (please forgive the mixing of philosophies and cultures) that transcends Occidental and Oriental, and the like, Thich Nhat Han would be, in my mind, something akin to the quintessential gentleman – perhaps a Bodhisattva of gentlemen, if you will. I’m sure he would also qualify as a gentleman as far as our general, Western definition of ‘gentleman’ is concerned, too. Certainly, his academic achievements would qualify him as a scholar.
Regarding the Dalai Lama, I think the word in question would be ‘scholar’. If we accept that the concept of ‘scholar’ has a theoretical ideal (again, forgive me), which encompasses all knowledge (assuming the concept of ‘knowledge’ has a theoretical ideal, which encompasses all possible knowledge, known and unknown, accepted and unaccepted, proven and yet-to-be proven), then in my mind, the Dalai Lama is most definitely a scholar. He is certainly a gentleman, in both the Western sense and the ideal sense.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 4,757
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
OP
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 4,757 |
Thanks, all - some very interesting responses.
fwiw, I too have heard and used both variants - interesting thought, plute, that it could be a question of which attribute is thought to carry most hono(u)r. I think, too, that there was a definite English class-system loading in the phrase: someone was either a gentleman or a member of the ghastly hoi polloi... ;) And that was true of students at Oxford and Cambridge too.
Yep, the Rabbie quote was the one that prompted my original turning to sources, and given that I had believed it to have earlier antecedents I was surprised by the paucity of information I could find. Yes, I'll try W/O Fong - is it Dr Techie who has access to a corporal data search tool for millions of US literary sources?
I think the consensus view emerging ~ that the phrase or a variant is typically used as a genuine compliment, with a self-deprecating edge of twinkling irony inherent in the over-mannered construction ~ represents all the typical occasions I have heard it used.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 4,757
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
OP
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 4,757 |
fwinw, here's my original thought on the phrase: Does not the concept predate this particular usage? I thought it was a commonplace amongst the classically-rooted English writers of the 17th century. For an example of the underlying concept if not the specific phrase, I’ve previously come across a reference by Robert Burton, dated 1621, as follows: "To say the best of this profession, I can give no other testimony of them in general, than that of Pliny of Isaeus: 'He is yet a scholar, than which kind of men there is nothing so simple, so sincere, none better;' they are most part harmless, honest, upright, innocent, plain-dealing men." Info on Burton fwiw: http://14.1911encyclopedia.org/B/BU/BURTON_ROBERT.htmIn a similar vein Izaak Walton wrote to his son at Oxford about a dream he had of “five townsmen and poor scholars” robbing the University – the apposition of ‘townsman’ and ‘gentleman’ is tacit. Andrew Lang in his ‘Introduction to the Compleat Angler’ has also remarked that Walton’s famous work leans on the earlier ‘A Treatise of the Nature of God’ (London, 1599). The Treatise starts with a conversation between a gentleman and a scholar: Gent. Well overtaken, sir! Scholar. You are welcome, gentleman. (Andrew Lang’s work can be found on the Guttenberg resource, Etext #2422)
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 1,385
veteran
|
|
veteran
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 1,385 |
it also makes me think of the Dalai Lama, and Thich Nhat Han, but that got me thinking about the term "gentleman" being too Occidental?
Years ago, I heard that the term "wog", which sounds racist, actually stands for "western oriental gentleman".
If so, the sound of the acronym has contaminated its meaning, and it is just as well that the term has fallen out of use. [At least, I think it has fallen out of use. Is it still in use anywhere?]
|
|
|
|
Forums16
Topics13,913
Posts229,318
Members9,182
| |
Most Online3,341
Dec 9th, 2011
|
|
|
0 members (),
457
guests, and
1
robot. |
|
Key:
Admin,
Global Mod,
Mod
|
|
|
|
