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#124888 03/09/04 03:37 PM
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I ran across the term "catercorner" in my current read ~ and that's the first I've seen of that word. I knew instantly what he meant, but I've only heard "cattycorner" or "kittycorner". Is this a regionalism? How did felines come to be associated with diagonal crossings?


#124889 03/09/04 03:47 PM
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Dear FB: here's what I found:
The first element of the word, "cata," is probably related to "cater," also found in the related word "catercorner" (or, as many folks know it, "cattycorner" or "kittycorner"). "Cater" in these words is an Anglicization of the French "quatre," or "four," and "catercornered" originally just meant "four-cornered." To specify that something is "catercorner across" from something else is to stress the diagonal axis of an imaginary box, as opposed to saying "directly across" or just "across." Both "catercorner" and "catawampus" are native American colloquialisms dating back to the 1880's or earlier


#124890 03/09/04 03:52 PM
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Of course - cater -> quatre! Why didn't I think of that? I'm still curious about the introduction of the feline element...

And "catawampus" (or as my mom always said it "cattywampus") makes total sense in that context too... You're a star, Bill!


#124891 03/09/04 05:01 PM
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Yup, JW, I have to agree, Bill's some kinda star. A red dwarf comes to mind ...


#124892 03/09/04 07:00 PM
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Now, Pfranz, don't be such a smeghead about the Doc. After all, every ship has to have its Rimmer.


#124893 03/09/04 07:22 PM
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Yeah, but while he's listering to starboard I can't help listering into the port ...


#124894 03/09/04 07:36 PM
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On the Hertzsprung-Rusell diagram, a red dwarf holds a position quite superior to that of a pair of brown dwarfs.


#124895 03/09/04 08:37 PM
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meanwhile, (ignoring all the petty bickering below!) this came up years ago. so if you are adventurous, or brave, or have a couple of hours to spare, you could search for catty corner, or kittycorner, in threads at least 2 years back, and find a lively discussion.

i am almost sure it was in Q & A, but it could have been in word play, or misc. a quick way to date it is to see when you joined, since it was before your time, (but after mine!) that might be only a few months of threads to look through!


#124896 03/09/04 08:47 PM
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Oh, I was sure it had been discussed before, whether before I joined or during my hiatus ~ but I figured it would either generate some interesting discussion or provide Pfranz an opportunity to pick on Bill, one. Or both.


#124897 03/09/04 09:14 PM
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I am concerned that suggesting that new members should read
all the old posts, or that they should always search before they post, may contribute to driving new members away,
and discouraging oldtimers from returning.


#124898 03/09/04 09:48 PM
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Hi Bill

I don't think of Troy wanted to discourage anybody from posting the questions.

It's just that if somebody posts a question we've all discussed before, they may not get any responses, so telling them we've already talked about it would explain why.

Sometimes new people are a little hurt when their questions get few, or no answers at all (everybody's a little timid when they're starting out) so knowing this will make them feel better I'm sure.

And if the subject really is of interest to them they'll pop on back and look for it.


#124899 03/09/04 11:48 PM
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#124900 03/10/04 02:42 AM
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connie is so much nicer than i am! thanks for the links.

and Dear Dr Bill, i didn't want to end the discussion, but there was a fun lively thread about kitty corner (and this thread didn't seem to be taking the same course!) filled with puns and silliness. and it was ages ago. it's a good read, even if we all continue here with a new discussion.

Jr. wheatgerm could look it up (as Consuelo did) or she could let it drop. if she found something she wanted to share, she could make a link...


#124901 03/10/04 01:13 PM
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F'babe said: it would either generate some interesting discussion or provide Pfranz an opportunity to pick on Bill, one.

I only resurrect this post on behalf of our (presumptive) interest in words and grammar: I'd always thought this construction was Southern (US) only, yet here is a Yankee girl using it!


#124902 03/10/04 03:04 PM
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Maybe this Yankee girl learned it from y'all.


#124903 03/10/04 03:24 PM
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Maybe this Yankee girl learned it from y'all.
Nah, I used kittycorner way back when I thought The South meant New York and Connecticut!


#124904 03/10/04 03:49 PM
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We talkin bout either A or B, one.


#124905 03/10/04 07:15 PM
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it would either generate some interesting discussion or provide Pfranz an opportunity to pick on Bill, one.

Naw, I've learned two things, both of which I prolly needed to know. Or not. They are:

1. Bill knows that one red dwarf beats a pair of brown dwarves. Useful in stellar poker games, I'm sure.
b) And Bill knows nothing about Red Dwarf!



#124906 03/10/04 07:21 PM
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either A or B, one

Attually©, the standard form is A, or either B, one or, in its canonical form A, or either that or B, one. Its value is that it is the explicit exclusive OR and thus avoids the ambiguity of the standard OR. (See the old joke, 'did you bring your lunch or take the bus?')


#124907 03/11/04 06:36 PM
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the explicit exclusive OR

Should that be "the explicitly exclusive OR", Faldage?

Or just "the explicit OR"?

Just askin.


#124908 03/11/04 06:56 PM
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You got exclusive ORs (XOR) and inclusive ORs (OR). A XOR B is true for A true or B true, but not for A and B true. A OR B is true for A true, B true or A and B true. I.e., A and B with the same truth value gives a false XOR but a true OR value. If neither A nor B is true then A XOR B and A OR B are both false.


#124909 03/11/04 07:25 PM
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You got exclusive ORs (XOR) and inclusive ORs (OR).

Understood.

But are the "exclusive ORs" the same thing as "the explict exclusive ORs", which are really "the explicitly exclusive ORs"?

How "exclusive" does an "OR" have to be to be "explicit"? Or "explicitly exclusive"? Or vice versa.

Come to think of it, isn't "the exclusive OR" explicit enough without adding the word "explicit" [or the word "explicitly"]?

Just tinking with ya, Faldage.



#124910 03/11/04 07:29 PM
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'Exclusive OR' is a noun phrase. The 'explicit' is modifying the whole phrase and not just 'exclusive'.


#124911 03/11/04 07:39 PM
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The 'explicit' is modifying the whole phrase and not just 'exclusive'.

I'm probably out of my element here, but what's the difference between an "explicit exclusive OR" and an "exclusive OR"?

Is one a little more exclusive than the other?

Just tinking with ya.




#124912 03/11/04 08:09 PM
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The common usage of the English language word 'or' is ambiguous. While it is normally taken to be exclusive, this is not always the case. By 'explicit exclusive OR' I simply mean that the interpretation that it be an inclusive OR is disallowed. It is no different than a regular exclusive OR in any way.

Sorry, I didn't read the white before I posted. We don't pay you to tink.


#124913 03/11/04 08:25 PM
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It is no different than a regular exclusive OR in any way.

That pretty much clears it up. Thank you.

The reason you don't pay me to tink is because you do most of my best tinking for me.




#124914 03/11/04 11:39 PM
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but is it worth a tinkers damn?


#124915 03/12/04 12:12 AM
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but is it worth a tinker's damn?

To you and me, certainly not. But to a tinker, his dam is worth damn near everything.

A tinker without a dam is like a hockey player without a helmut. A few pricks can take all the fun out of the game.


#124916 03/14/04 06:56 PM
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And then, there's caterwaul


#124917 03/14/04 07:14 PM
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From the Middle English caterwawlen 'to yowl like a tomcat.' Cf. German Katzenjammer 'hangover; crapulence' from Katzen 'cats' + Jammer 'bitchiness, lamentation, misery'; though German Kater 'hangover' may be from either catarrh or from Kater 'tomcat'.


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