|
|
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 13,858
Carpal Tunnel
|
OP
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 13,858 |
I don't remember seeing 'empyreal' before,only 'empyrean'.
Webster 1913 seems to emphasize 'fire' in 'empyreal' and
seventh sphere in 'empyrean'.
Webster's 1913 Dictionary
Definition: \Em`py*re"an\ (?; 277), n. [See {Empyreal}.]
The highest heaven, where the pure element of fire was
supposed by the ancients to subsist.
The empyrean rung With hallelujahs. --Milton.
Webster's 1913 Dictionary
Definition: \Em*pyr"e*al\, a. [L. empyrius, empyreus, fiery, Gr. ?,
?, in fire, fiery; ? in + ? fire. See {In}, and {Fire}.]
Formed of pure fire or light; refined beyond a["e]rial
substance; pertaining to the highest and purest region of
heaven.
Go, soar with Plato to the empyreal sphere. --Pope.
{Empyreal air}, oxygen gas.
\Em*pyr"e*al\, n.
Empyrean. --Mrs. Browning.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 1,475
veteran
|
|
veteran
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 1,475 |
Empurios 'fiery' exhibits another use of in- as an intensive prefix, rather than a privative or illative one.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 6,296
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 6,296 |
Empurios = fiery. Empurios is Greek here, yes? How does the word break down further? Does 'pur' = fire? Edit: I see the relationship between pyre and pur; which came first? Does pur = fire or was pur a form after pyre. If so, how very, very interesting in that fire is often seen as a symbol of purification, not only in ceremony, but also in dreams.
I tried finding empurios to no avail, but did find this on one of onelook's references:
"Empúries is town in the Mediterranean coast of the Catalan comarca of Empordà. It was founded by the ancient Greeks with the name of Emporion (that is market)."
...and that was interesting because of the relationship between Emporior and emporiums, which are markets of sorts.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 1,475
veteran
|
|
veteran
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 1,475 |
Pur is fire in Greek. The vowel ypsilon used to be transcribed as 'y' but is usually transcribed as 'u' these days. At some point in Greek's phonological history, 'y' was pronounced /u/, but soon came to be pronounced as /ü/ and then /i/. If I could chance the Unicode Greek font in AWADtalk it might be clearer for those who already know Greek. Anywho, the root is cognate with the English word fire, from *pewor, *pur- 'fire'. Other fire roots include the one that Latin ignis and Sanskrit agni are related to, *egnis ~ *ognis 'fire'. In the end all these roots (here [cribbed from Pokorny dictionary] and in the A-H appendix [same source, but with some independent scholarship added]) are reconstructions. It's important to realize that there's no proof one way or another of if they existed, how they might have been pronounced, and what they meant. It's best to think of them as a shorthand, mnemonic device for comparing all the daughter languages' words.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 6,296
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 6,296 |
Ah, not sure whether this is coincidence or not, jheem, but I'd been interested in a long time before coming to AWAD in the long-time-ago dictates that the vowels were 'a, e, i, o, u and sometimes y and w.'
As a child I could easily figure out the first six, but the 'w' threw me for years until finding 'cwm' in an American Heritage dictionary, and voila! There was that 'w' sounding like a 'u.' In fact, I was very curious about other 'w' words in the language after having found still another in American Heritage: crwth. So I came to this place a little over two years ago and posed my question about 'w' vowell words beyond cwm and crwth. Well, the answers came in. I believe Maverick may have been the one who provided a very long list of 'w' as vowell words, quite impressive.
Now to learn from you that even 'y' had possessed some sort of 'u' sounds is even more intesting--and the connections, both practical and metaphorical, abound: The empyreal itself--and the thought of the purest realm as being the sky itself--and not so pure today because of how we pollute it with our advance forward (or is it backward?). Pyres and purification, when pyres actually are polluting. There's a metaphysical kind of fiery purity, and then there's the impurity of actual fires.
"Y" has gained quite more signficance in my way of thinking, so I thank you very much for your most valuable instruction here on this thread. I'm sure others are as very interested in what you've provided.
Addendum: Here's mav's list from years gone by of the 'w' words, for anyone who's interested. I saved the list intentionally along with his comments--Mav', I'm 99% sure it was you who wrote what follows!:
"dwr = water
swn = sound
those two should have a 'to' or roof over the 'w' - like this letter's: û - but I can't seem to find that in the standard character sets...)
ffrwd = misty, damp (I think)
twr = tower
twll = hole
bwlch = gap (in hills etc), pass
hwn = that
pwll = pool
drws = door
drwg = bad or naughty
drwm = drum
dwbl = double
gwrth = counter or contra
gwr = man (and interestingly gwrach = witch!)
lwc = luck
llwgr = corruption
dwl = dull, stupid
dwndwr = hubub, babble [ dwndwrdoondoor]
dwthwn = day (tho around here we woud use dydd)
llwnc = gulp, swallow
dwrn = fist, handle, hilt
llwm = bare, destitute
mwrthwt = hammer
cwrw - BEER!
wydd = goose (I think this is a soft mutation of gwydd)
cwn = dog or dogs (depending on where in Wales)
cwl = cool, wicked (modern transliteration)
cwrwgl = coracle (traditional withy & skin fishing boat)
mwlwg mwlwg
mwlwg = refuse, sweepings
mwng - mane (horse's)
pwt = short ('Gog' or North Welsh)
cwcw = cuckoo
cwpl = couple; tie-beam
cwmwl = cloud
cwt is one that I like since it has quite varied meanings depending on context: tail, skirt, queue, hut, sty - the common feature seems to be something as an appendage.
cwr = edge, border or skirt, whereas cwrs = course
mwrllwch = fog, mist, vapour (another Gog term, my kids said) and one for Dr Bill (YCLIU!): cwthwm"
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 13,858
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
OP
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 13,858 |
Dear WW: All I could find was picture of a beautiful Springer Spaniel. Bit of trivia "springer" comes from their
habit of jumping with head high to get view of birds ahead
in tall grass. Surprisingly they are also valiant fighters.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 1,475
veteran
|
|
veteran
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 1,475 |
Well, y and w are also called semi-vowels sometimes. It's true that in Welsh w is used for /u/ and y is used for /i/. In the IPA, /y/ is the German ü sound, that is a high front rounded vowel. /i/ is a high front unrounded vowel. In other words, you can pronounce /y/ the same as you would the /i/ just cause your lips to round as if pronouncing /u/. Same with /e/ and /œ/: mid front unrounded and mid front rounded respectively, with /œ as German ö.
A w is after all a double-u. And in Spanish, they call a y, the i-griega, or Greek i. Hope this helps. Thatnks for the list, if you're ever in a library take a look at a Welsh dictionary and marvel at all the double-yews as vowels.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 11,613
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 11,613 |
Gosh, isn't it fascinating to read real journals from earlier times? AND--I finally found that eglwys means church; unfortunately I was unable to find anything on poor old St. Eirw--he must have been a rather minor saint. I found this site, too, and can't resist posting rather a lot of its opening words:
It is well known that the 20th century Welsh have inherited a very restricted range of surnames. The choice is predominantly between Jones, Davies, Evans, Williams, and Thomas, not one of which is a Welsh name.
Almost certainly, the most significant factor in determining the final outcome was the persistent survival, in Wales, of the system of naming. This traditional method, common to most pastoral peoples, involved identifying a man by his father's Christian name and sometimes by his grandfather's, too. It was the practice of all the Celtic nations in Britain: the Welsh, the Scots, and the Irish. If a man's name was Cawrdaf, and he decided to call his son Dogfael, the young man would be known as Dogfael son of Cawrdaf. His son, in turn, might be Carwed son of Dogfael son of Cawrdaf.
The Welsh word for son is mab or map, depending on whether it precedes a vowel or a consonant. The Irish and Scottish word is mac. The small difference illustrates one of the main distinctions between the two surviving branches of the Celtic Language: 'q' Celtic and 'p' Celtic. Gaelic, i.e. Irish, Scottish and Manx are 'q' Celtic languages; hence Maq = Mac. Welsh, Cornish, and Breton are Brythonic, or 'p' Celtic languages, hence Map = Mab. http://www.korrnet.org/welsh/files/jbdavies.html
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 4,757
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 4,757 |
mmmm, fascinating stuff, Jackie - and the 'map' or 'mab' also gest changed in another way - not just shortened to 'ap', as in Elin ap Gwynedd, but also mutated to 'fab', as in 'Dewi James ai fab' (and sons).
Not entirely spoiled for me to realise it was aptually a different village of the same name, but!
edit:
> But, of all the European male names, John is the most common. Welsh, like Latin had no 'J,' so John came to us originally in the form of Ieuan...
Not only that but James is rendered in Welsh as Iago, like in Santiago...
|
|
|
|
Forums16
Topics13,913
Posts229,328
Members9,182
| |
Most Online3,341
Dec 9th, 2011
|
|
|
0 members (),
703
guests, and
0
robots. |
|
Key:
Admin,
Global Mod,
Mod
|
|
|
|
