|
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 180
member
|
OP
member
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 180 |
Is using "have got" together really proper? It seems redundant to me and doesn't sound correct, yet I observe journalists using this quite often.
Instead of: "They've got the best idea."
Why not: "They have the best idea."
?
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 555
addict
|
addict
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 555 |
to my mind...
have got an idea - probably implies obtaining help from outside apart from one's own effort
have an idea - implies pure creativity. An idea that is truly self inspired.
Any takers?
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 1,004
old hand
|
old hand
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 1,004 |
Hey you!
I remember from my youth being told that 'only the lower classes' (they didn't mince words in my youth) use 'have got'. This didn't, I suspect, stop Shakespeare and other luminaries using it whenever they felt it appropriate (Shakespeare's an easy one, since he happily broke anything we consider a grammatical rule).
cheer
the sunshine warrior
|
|
|
|
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 2,154
Pooh-Bah
|
Pooh-Bah
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 2,154 |
I may be lower but I have got class. Seriously ,tho' we do use have to modify the tense of other verbs (I have been using it), why not this one?
|
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 3,065
Carpal Tunnel
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 3,065 |
'Have got' always indicates possession, but 'have' need not do so. For example: She's got a bath (not just a shower) v. She has a bath (every morning).
Bingley
Bingley
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 36
newbie
|
newbie
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 36 |
I agree with Bingly here. "Have got" should imply possession or receipt. People often say, for example, "I've got a cold," but, grammatically speaking, they'd be more correct to say "I have a cold."
In a slightly different context, one might say, for example, "I was with my ailing nephew, and now I've gotten a cold." Note, however that one would use "gotten" here, instead of got.
Similarly, I think, one might say, "I got it in the mail," to express receipt of a letter; but one could say, "I have gotten it in the mail," to imply that the letter is now in possession of the lettercarrier.
Occasionally, I think, it's fairly common usage to use have got for emphasis, as in: "You have GOT to be kidding!"
The 'have got' construction has been around forever. I remember the old TV program I've Got A Secret. When we were learning our grammar, way back then, I called this to my teacher's attention and, though she was a pretty strict grammarian herself, she admitted that this had escaped her notice, gave me extra points for my vigilance.
Interestingly enough, the show was sponsored by a cigarette company (yes, I'm that old), whose catch-phrase was "Winston tastes good, like a cigarette should". This, of course, should be: ...as a cigarette should.
But I digress.
Ron.
Ron.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 6,511
Carpal Tunnel
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 6,511 |
For me, it's more of a mouth feel thing; seems the distinction is losing ground. Also, at the risk of starting Revolutionary War III, would it be fair to say that Brits use "have got" a lot more often, and in more contexts, than us North American colonials? And what about y'all antipodean up-overs?
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 1,692
Pooh-Bah
|
Pooh-Bah
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 1,692 |
As the doughty sunshine warrior (??) says, we were taught at school that ‘got’ used in this sense was redundant and not proper usage. “He told me to get it, so I got it” was just about acceptable, but rather an ugly construction and it was safest to avoid ‘got’ altogether. It is, nevertheless, frequently used.
‘Gotten’ is strictly US usage and I don’t think I have heard it used here in the UK other than in fun.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 1,004
old hand
|
old hand
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 1,004 |
Agree - gotten, though of respectable provenance (I understand), is not used by UKians.
And 'got' appears to have been creamed by cod snobbery. Just as you are unlikely ever to see the word 'me' in business letters - all the anxious arrivistes use 'myself'.
Bless.
cheer
the sunshine "more doughy than doughty" warrior
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 555
addict
|
addict
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 555 |
Is no one other than me (sorry shanks, ..myself ) getting a strong feeling of 'procure' with 'have got'?
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 1,004
old hand
|
old hand
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 1,004 |
Well it depends. Do you think of Pandar as a 'have-gotter'?
the sunshine "it's only me" warrior
a/k/a
the sunshine "I've got a lovely bunch of coconuts" warrior
|
|
|
|
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 2,154
Pooh-Bah
|
Pooh-Bah
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 2,154 |
I agree with Bingly here. "Have got" should imply possession or receipt. People often say, for example, "I've got a cold," but, grammatically speaking, they'd be more correct to say "I have a cold."
In a slightly different context, one might say, for example, "I was with my ailing nephew, and now I've gotten a cold." Note, however that one would use "gotten" here, instead of got.
yabut, yabut, how come you can say "I am with my nephew."(who is very cute by the way) meaning present tense. and "I was with..." meaning past tense that ended in the past. and "I have been with ..." meaning past tense that extends to or stops at the present. OR emphasis ("I have so been with...") and "I have" present and "I got" past but not "I have got" continuing past or emphasis. Why shouldn't you use "have" to modify the verb for "be in possesion of" in the same way it modifies other verbs.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 11,613
Carpal Tunnel
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 11,613 |
creamed by cod snobbery. ???
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 180
member
|
OP
member
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 180 |
Hi Ravi!
I remember from my youth being told that 'only the lower classes' (they didn't mince words in my youth) use 'have got'.
Funnily enough, I recall being told the same thing by more than one English teacher.
For whatever reason, "have got" sounds common to me. But if it's good enough for William Shakespeare, I suppose I should not complain. Still...
I dusted off my Harper's English Grammar and read the following:
"Got means have or possess or obtain or secure. Use it sparingly if at all after have. Some authorities justify have got for the sake of emphasis, as I have got my man. Do not use got for is or was; I got hit for I was hit is substandard."
|
|
|
|
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 2,154
Pooh-Bah
|
Pooh-Bah
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 2,154 |
"He has been being got at." Parse that, professor
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 180
member
|
OP
member
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 180 |
"He has been being got at."Oh God, my eyes!
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 320
enthusiast
|
enthusiast
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 320 |
Why do I keep thinking about this old ditty? (As a lyricist Tom Lehrer's really got the stuff.)
I love my friends and they love me We're just as close as we can be And just because we really care Whatever we get, we share!
I got it from Agnes She got it from Jim We all agree it must have been Louise who gave it to him
Now she got it from Harry Who got it from Marie And ev'rybody knows that Marie Got it from me
Giles got it from Daphne She got it from Joan Who picked it up in County Cork A-kissin' the Blarney Stone
Pierre gave it to Shiela Who must have brought it there He got it from Francois and Jacques Aha, lucky Pierre!
Max got it from Edith Who gets it ev'ry spring She got it from her Daddy Who just gives her ev'rything
She then gave it to Daniel Whose spaniel has it now Our dentist even got it And we're still wondering how
But I got it from Agnes Or maybe it was Sue Or Millie or Billie or Gillie or Willie It doesn't matter who
It might have been at the pub or at the club, or in the loo And if you will be my friend, then I might ... (Mind you, I said "might" ...) Give it to you!
|
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 3,065
Carpal Tunnel
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 3,065 |
Nobody ever told me that 'have got' was common. We were advised not to use too many gets in succession (avoid: I got up early but by the time I got downstairs my brother had got all the good cereal. I got my own back when we were getting on the bus because I got him all embarrassed in front of this girl he wants to get off with .....).
The get passive is mainly used in speaking and is useful. It's only used for actions and not states so it resolves the ambiguity in "The window was broken". Are we talking about the fact that the window was in several pieces or about something that happened to the unoffending pane of glass? If we say "The window got broken", it must mean the latter. It seems a perfectly natural extension of the difference between "She was drunk" and "She got drunk."
I think passives with get also imply that without actually performing the action, the subject (if animate) did do something to bring the action about. For example, there is a much stronger implication of misbehaviour in "He got arrested" than in "He was arrested".
Bingley
Bingley
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 6,511
Carpal Tunnel
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 6,511 |
To continue Bingley's examples, there's also "she got married" vs "she was married." There is a grammatical term for got in this sense (besides the "get passive" that Bingley used), but damned if I can remember it. I believe it's similar to one usage of werden in German and one usage of the reflexive in Portuguese (and, I guess, Spanish).
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 7,210
Carpal Tunnel
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 7,210 |
well, I have no class(it's a snow day), but I have gotten used to using have and got. a lot.
formerly known as etaoin...
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 11,613
Carpal Tunnel
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 11,613 |
SNOW DAY???!!! OHHHHHH-HHHHHHHHHHHHHH... Oh man, oh man--they have snow in Alaska, too, enough to shovel. I wanna move up north!
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 6,511
Carpal Tunnel
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 6,511 |
I'll trade places with you any time, Jackie. After all, I know how to pronounce Louisville, and I bet I could get used to saying "you-all," with or without "got" and/or "gotten."
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 11,613
Carpal Tunnel
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 11,613 |
I'll trade places with you any time, Jackie. Somehow I don't think Faldage would care for that...
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 7,210
Carpal Tunnel
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 7,210 |
well, we done got about a foot on the ground, and the 40mph winds have given us two and three foot drifts. Marnie and I were talking about the word "drift" as being unequal to the task of describing the process. it's much too gentle. these were some pretty good breezes...
formerly known as etaoin...
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 1,004
old hand
|
old hand
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 1,004 |
Ok, ok, I made it up. The cod refers to 'fake' or 'ersatz', as in: unjustified, but taken up by all those who think Princess Diana had class.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 180
member
|
OP
member
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 180 |
there's also "she got married" vs "she was married." My Harper's English Grammar suggests that got should not be used in place of was. BTW, I hope I didn't offend anyone with my observation that have got sounds common to me. I know I've used it myself at times. It's just that I was taught not to. Likely I should not have said anything about it. My bad.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 2,154
Pooh-Bah
|
Pooh-Bah
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 2,154 |
Relax gift horse, all you did was start a conversation. re "She got married" vs. "She was married" They don't mean the same thing to me. "Was" refers to a state of being whereas "got" refers to the action complete with rice throwing and mother crying. (And "She was married" refers it to lawyers)
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 555
addict
|
addict
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 555 |
I guess it is the context, Zed. 'She was married on a bright Sunday morning', versus, 'She got married on a bright Sunday morning'.
aside: In 'she got married', the 'got' fits Bingley's 'in possession of', rather neatly, doesn't it. She got herself a husband. {hurried exit}
|
|
|
|
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 2,154
Pooh-Bah
|
Pooh-Bah
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 2,154 |
maahey and he got himself a treasure [hearts, flowers and violins -e]
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 1,289
veteran
|
veteran
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 1,289 |
As soon as I read this post, there started up in my head, "I've got rhythm, I've got music .....".
What do y'all make of that usage?
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803
Carpal Tunnel
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803 |
I think it's wrong. It should be "I got rhythm, I got music…"
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 180
member
|
OP
member
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 180 |
As soon as I read this post, there started up in my head, "I've got rhythm, I've got music .....".
What do y'all make of that usage?
I think Gershwin can do whatever he wants (wanted). Actually, if you look at the entire lyrics he uses both "I got" and "I've got" in the song.
One of my favorites is:
"I've got you under my skin I've got you deep in the heart of me
So deep in my heart You're nearly a part of me I've got you under my skin..."
Great romantic dance song...if memory serves. *sigh*
|
|
|
|
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 2,154
Pooh-Bah
|
Pooh-Bah
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 2,154 |
Great romantic dance song...if memory serves. *sigh*Technically it was before my time, but I do love old-fashioned social dancing. Waltzes, and fox-trots and all. We have ballroom around but it's not quite the same, less about dancing well and more about dancing "correctly". I was born a generation too late. My father told me about the late 40's and early 50's when there was a dance every night except Sunday. Because of the LOrd's Day act you couldn't shold a dance on Sunday - but you could start one at 12:01 AM on Monday.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 180
member
|
OP
member
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 180 |
I love to dance, too, Carol. I have an older male friend who was teaching me how to dance; waltz, foxtrot, Tango. Very fun. The problem is finding men who know how to dance properly. My DH is clueless. I suppose I was born too late as well (1962), though I wouldn't trade with my mother or grandmothers and have to deal with the faulty birth control of that earlier age. Yikes!
|
|
|
|
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 2,154
Pooh-Bah
|
Pooh-Bah
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 2,154 |
Hey Twin, Come to vancouver and I'll introduce you to the dance scene here.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 180
member
|
OP
member
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 180 |
Hey Twin, Come to vancouver and I'll introduce you to the dance scene here.Thanks! Sounds like great fun to me! I may just take you up on that someday. We could be cool together.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 1,289
veteran
|
veteran
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 1,289 |
You're probably right, Faldage, but I know I've heard "Ive got" as well as "I got". Do we need to consult the original Gershwin MS?
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 180
member
|
OP
member
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 180 |
Here are the lyrics:
I Got Rhythm Billie Holiday, Ella Fitzgerald
In this fast and troubled world we sometimes lose our way But I am never lost I feel this way because...
I got rhythm, I got music, I got my girl Who could ask for anything more? I've got good times, no more bad times I've got my girl, who could ask for anything more?
Old man trouble I don't mind him You won't find him around my door I've got starlight, I've got sweet dreams I've got my girl, who could ask for, who could ask for more?
Old man trouble, I don't mind him You won't find, you're never gonna find him 'round my door Oh, I've got rhythm, I've got music I got my girl, who could ask for anything more?
I've got rhythm, I've got rhythm ...
Gershwin
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 180
member
|
OP
member
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 180 |
Relax gift horse, all you did was start a conversation.I'm not tense, just terribly terribly alert.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 1,692
Pooh-Bah
|
Pooh-Bah
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 1,692 |
Better to be a lert than a loof.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 619
addict
|
addict
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 619 |
Shakespeare's an easy one, since he happily broke anything we consider a grammatical rule.Here's t'other side of the coin, Shanks, in a NY Times review of "Doing our own thing" by linguist John McWhorter: http://www.nytimes.com/2003/11/16/books/review/16CALDWET.htmlExtract: At some point in the 1960's, Americans lost faith in their written language, and settled for reproducing a less demanding (but more ''real'') oral variant on the page and in public. The result, McWhorter asserts, has been a steep and steady decline in the quality of political oratory, poetry, musical theater, preaching and -- ultimately -- thinking.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 7,210
Carpal Tunnel
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 7,210 |
welcome, grapho!
interesting article, I missed that on Sunday.
formerly known as etaoin...
|
|
|
Forums16
Topics13,913
Posts229,317
Members9,182
|
Most Online3,341 Dec 9th, 2011
|
|
0 members (),
688
guests, and
1
robot. |
Key:
Admin,
Global Mod,
Mod
|
|
|
|