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#114550 10/25/03 05:24 PM
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wwh Offline OP
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"A very old lady, in a lofty cap and faded silk gown--no less a
personage than Mr. Wardle's mother--occupied the post of
honour on the right-hand corner of the chimney-piece; and
various certificates of her having been brought up in the way she
should go when young, and of her not having departed from it
when old, ornamted the walls, in the form of samplers of
ancient date.."

There were a dozen of them preserved in the attic of the house where I was born. Vandal that I was as preteen, I threw them away. Now I wish I hadn't, even though I have no way of knowing the names of the girls who so laboriously created them, with mottoes such as "Be it ever so humble, there's no place like home".



#114551 10/25/03 06:05 PM
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even rarer than needlework (embroidery) samplers, are knitted samplers.. i have only seen a very few in museums.

back before there were knitting books, and online knitting forem's, a girl might learn fancy knitting (lace) and knitt a sampler of all the stitches she knew..


#114552 10/25/03 08:35 PM
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What distinguishes the knitting in lace from that in a basic sweater, of troy? I am painfully ignorant of knitting other than extremely basic info: needles; knit; pearl; 1; 2; cable--and that's about it. I do remember my grandmother's crocheting with a single needle decades ago and realize that crochet is different from knitting--but I've assumed, perhaps incorrectly, that it was just the single needle that was the big difference between the two. I never had heard that lace work was actually knitting until reading your post above--so now I'm curious about that. Thanks for writing a bit here when you have the time.


#114553 10/26/03 01:33 AM
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WW, i am so glad you asked!
-you made that sound perfectly natural, i'll get that check out to you right away! we agreed,$10 to shill for me, right?)

You're right crochet uses a single impliment-- a hook (that where the name crochet comes from--the french word for a little crook (or hook)--et and ette are common suffixes for little (luncheonette,cigarette)

Crochet is rather new, only about 300 to 400 years old, and it was created (some say by french nuns) to make a kind of lace (that would be exempt from sumptuary laws--there is a short thread about sumptuary laws, too, not to old down here somewere)

in crochet, one stitch is made and 'secured' at a time. crochet is versital, but the 'fabric' made with crochet tend to be stiff, and not to elastic (which when you think about it, is a perfect quality for lace!

knitting, is done with needles (2, or 4, or 5, or even a single needle, that is long and flexible, and curved into a circle (so it has 2 tips, even though its a single needle) the fabic is generally softer, and more drapable, and definately much more elastic. so it makes a soft, drapable lace. (lace like fabric, rather than crochets lace like edging)

and knitting is old--realy old. scraps (moth eaten, and rotted) have been found in old world archiology sites, but the best evidence of 'the age' of knitting is from a footprint, that was preserved in an ancient eygptian tomb--which clearly shows evidence of a knit sock (some one with a knit sock on his foot, stepped in a muddy puddle, and left a image in the mud. in time the puddle dried, and it preserved an image of the sock)

Knitting dispersed slowly, but after the crusades, it spread rapdly through out western europe. (there are lots of painting, the earliest dating to about the 14th century of the madonna knitting--not to much evidence before that of knitting in europe)

by the 1600's, knitting was a guilded craft-- the purtains brought over guilded knitters to settle in new england--of course, their knitters earned their mastery in holland, since as dissetents, they couldn't get entry in to english guilds (from apprentice to master was 6 years of study!)

In spite of the guilds in london, knitting remained to some degree a home craft(as did weaving) and unlike weaving, knitting was a 'pick up and put down craft' that could be practiced on and off, and didn't require a loom or fancy tools-- needle were simple dowels, with shaped and sanded tips. it was popular in the norther, more remote regions of europe and UK, since it was cheap, warm, elastic, and could be made easily with material at hand
looms require a lot of wood to make, and some skill to operate, and the output, cloth, still has to cut, fitted and sewn before it becomes a garment. a knit sweater comes off the needle faster, will few materials to make, and its immediately ready to wear! in pre industrial times, knitting garment took half the time to make as woven one..
(and that was part of knitting bane--it was the clothing of the poor generally, not the rich --though King Charlie went to the block wearing a knitted sweater--he wanted to be able to remove his jacket, and not shiver in the cold--lest it be though he was shaking with fear!--the knit diamond pattern that was used in his shirt is now called King Charle's diamond.(you can see 'charlie' wearing a replica at Madame Tussards!)
In scandinavia, norther scotland, the hebridies, and a whole bunch of island in the north sea, knitting took root and blossomed...
today, many prized knitting techniques trace themselves to these areas--Fair Isle (one of the northern island of UK, in the north sea became famous for a style of knitting that use 2 strands of yarn (which made the sweaters/garments thicker) but unlike the plain twin knitting of scandinavia, the women of Fair isle uses the natual tones, and dyed white wools to make colorful knitted patterns --still know to day as 'fair isle knitting'.

in the shetlands, (of pony fame!) the woman specialize in fine fluffy wools, that they spun to make very fine thread (finer say than embroidery thread--for you guys, thinner than the wires in a twisted pair) they uses this fine yarn to make lacy shawls --sometimes called wedding ring shawls, because a 3 foot square shawl, was made of material, was so light, and so fine, it could pass through a wedding ring!

These shetland shawls are some of the finest lace knitting...(i'll go look for some pictures..)

nowdays, lacy square shawls are often called 'shetland' shawl, even if they have never even been close to a shetland pony, let alone, the shetland islands!

further south, in Guersey, a different style of knitting evolved, 'boat neck' and flat patterned designs. west, in the aran island of ireland, patterns took on deep texture, with cables, (made to look like fishermand ropes) and bobbles (like the floats on the nets) and criss crossing designs, to look like the netting evolved..

In recent years, (the past 100!) these styles have moved out of their narrow areas, and become more common.(especially in US, Canada, and other english speaking areas,(OZ, NZ) were imigrants brought their techniques with them, and they became dispersed--some times specific things helped to popularize a knitting style..
aran sweaters became popular when the clancy brothers started wearing them in their early concerts in the 1950's. by the 1960's they were very popular, and nowdays, many an 'aran sweater' comes to you straight from china!

i know several sites that have 'knitwear galleries' you can just look and see a range of knitting styles, including some lace--like this one..
http://users.rcn.com/kdyer.dnai/history.html

be sure to check out the H's!-there are 2 lacy objects displayed for sure!--not fine lace, but lacy clothing.
i'll go find some other sites, and post some specific links to knit lace (like lace chrismas balls!) or lace scarves, or lace 'bookmarks', and other lace knitting.

(and look in for my post on the double helix scarf--that someone knit as part of a discertaion on microbiology!--down here somewhere.)

i am as crazy about knitting as i am about words.. i stop knitting every once in a while but, like stopping here, i don't ever quite quit..and for the past year, i have been very busy knitting--sweaters, capes, household items, hats, scarves... lace bookmarks, socks, lots of things!
(and i know for a fact, several poster here are also knitters..)

one of the new crazes in knitting, is specific style of lace shawl from russia-- as many new immigrants come to US, Canada and other country, they are teaches us old knitters new tricks..


#114554 10/26/03 11:00 AM
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Many thanks, of troy. The knitted sock footprint in the mud of the tomb story was the best! Positively Holmesian.

Now back to the question and your comment:

Crochet is rather new, only about 300 to 400 years old, and it was created (some say by french nuns) to make a kind of lace (that would be exempt from sumptuary laws--there is a short thread about sumptuary laws, too, not to old down here somewere)

To repeat the obvious: Lace apparently may be either knitted or crocheted. Correct?


#114555 10/26/03 12:53 PM
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Lace--what is called 'real lace' is a kind of non-loom weaving or twisting.. a braid (3 strands) is a simple twist.

i am sure you have seen those 'handy pocket sewing kits' that have a 'braid' a flat 'woven type' ribbon, where the weave is at cross hatches--and each strand of the braid is a lenght of sewing thread-- that's an other sort of braid..

real lace is made on a 'pillow'- with many strands of thread, (100 to 300 is not uncommon!) that are hand woven, (braided/twisted) into place. its called 'pillow lace'.. because the strands are temporarily held in place with straight pins, so the lace is made on a oversized pin cushion or pillow. It takes hours, and lots of skill-and unlike the ribbon of sewing thread, some of the threads are double or triple twisted, to lock them in place.

crocheted and knit lace are techniques that are much simpler, that imitate pillow lace. (and crochet does it better, generally speaking.)Both are much, much faster!

tatting (which in actuality is the same stuff as fish netting!) is an other technique for imitating lace. it has some limits, but it make very interesting 'lace' all the same.

sumptuary laws regualated just who could and could not wear lace (and even those who could had to pay a heavy tax on lace) but like drug laws that are often very narrow, (which is why in late 1980's and 1990's there were spurts of 'designer' drugs-- chemicals that had a similar effect to a known drug, but were slightly chemically different, and so 'technically' not illegal,) the nuevo riche, and undeserving rich(as the law thought of them) figured out ways to have 'lace' that technically, legally wasn't 'lace'.

now days, most lace is made by machine, and since, often the machines 'braid/twist' the hundreds of strands, identially to how a human would do it, it's really made the same as Pillow lace--just hundreds of times faster! Hand made lace can still be found, and it still costs a kings ransom.

there are sevearl other techniques for lace making, (battenburg lace (made by embroidering narrow ribbons together) eyelet (embroidered fabric, that is cut and peirced to create lace like open work) cut work, (similar to eyelet, but larger openings,) 'drawn thread work' (plain woven fabric is partially unwoven, and strands are embroidered to create a lace like effect (this last one is very geometric) ... sumptuarly laws, and 'bon fires of vanities' were not much more successful than the current war on drugs, in curbing peoples desire for decorative clothing.


#114556 10/26/03 06:09 PM
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good info, Helen, thanks!

identially

I like this! pronounced i-DEN-chuh-lee



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