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I was reminded today of the British use of 'minute' as a verb; to wit: "On the 14th Churchill minuted Cadogan....", or "In no case should I phone him or minute him; even the internal lines were taboo." I guess this is equivalent to the American usage of "memoing one's colleagues". 
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I don't know, but if I find an answer, I'll fax it to you.
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If you can verb an noun, can you noun a verb? I can't think of any examples.
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I was going to post that "That was a good get" is an example of noun verbing, one that sports commentators seem to like. Then I checked Merriam-Websters online dictionary only to find that it lists "get" as a noun with one meaning being "a return of a difficult shot in a game (as tennis)". I haven't researched it further, but I'd bet it originated from nouning a verb. There are probably a lot more like it.
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An 'out' in baseball. Has to be a nouned verb.
Also, what about nouned adjectives: the 'whites' of their eyes?
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Still in the basebal motif, the radio announcer says "He flyed to center field." "Flyed"?!
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>An 'out' in baseball. Has to be a nouned verb.
Hang on a minute, shanks. It's only a nouned verb if it's come from the verb 'to out'. Given that it's come from the expression 'to go out' or 'to get out', I'd say it's a nouned adverb (or do I mean preposition? Help me please someone!).
I suppose 'to out' is a verb with a different sense. Did it originate as a verbed adverb/preposition?
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Pooh-Bah
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>I was reminded today of the British use of 'minute' as a verb
The only sense I think it is used these days would be in "to minute a meeting", although the expression "to take minutes" would also be used. What would be the US English equivalent?
Isn't "to mail", rather than "send an e-mail" another example?
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Jo, I've never heard anyone say mail instead of e-mail someone. I often hear people asking about getting the minutes of the meeting but never about someone taking the minutes. Usually they are just asked to take notes.
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>The only sense I think it is used these days of the two citations I gave... hang on a second... In reply to:
I was reminded today of the British use of 'minute' as a verb; to wit: "On the 14th Churchill minuted Cadogan....", or "In no case should I phone him or minute him; even the internal lines were taboo."
...the first is from Stephen Dorril's "MI6" published this year and the second is from LeCarre's "Tinker, Tailor...". [where does the period belong in that last sentence?] both seem to be of the sense to write [a memo] to.
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both seem to be of the sense to write [a memo] toI'd agree with Jo that this isn't a common usage. You don't often even minute a meeting - you take minutes. Perhaps it's primarily used in political/governmental circles. I think the implication is that you aren't just writing a letter, you're writing a pithy summary of salient points (minuting) and passing that on by internal post - like a memo but far more secure. However, we used to talk about memoing people back before email became commonplace, so there's your noun verbing. In fact when we first had company-specific (as opposed to Internet) email facilities we used to call emails memos. 
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Actually he flied OUT to center field. Made a fly out. They've probably been using this since the first radio broadcast of a baseball game. My dictionary has it as a past tense of fly with the stipulation that it's only for baseball.
I tried in my mind "He flew to center field" and "He flew out to center field" and I kept getting this image of Harry Potter on a broom.
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Isn't "to mail", rather than "send an e-mail" another example?
I can accept that a verb minute comes from a noun directly, or to say that one is memoing comes from the noun memo, but mail? I have mailed things all my life. If ever the verb or noun was derived from the other both versions have been part of my life since I had vocabulary. I have always accepted mail to be one of those words that has various meanings, and various parts of speech. I don't think of the verb as being derived from the noun.
It's time for the human race to enter the solar system.
--Governor George W. Bush Jr.
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Pooh-Bah
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>I have mailed things all my life.
Whereas I have always posted my letters, not mailed them.
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xara, I know this has nothing to do with this thread title but what on earth is GWBush getting on about in this quote of yours. I am sure it must mean something of note since you have used it a few times. Seeing as we are on the Earth, which is in orbit around the sun, and is not the last planet out, the human race IS in the solar system. ???
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>the human race IS in the solar system
I think that maybe the point
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Colour me clueless Jo. Maybe I'd understand the quote if I knew in what context he was saying it.
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>the human race IS in the solar system
I think that maybe the point
Well, I rather think the point is that George W. Bush Jr isn't in the Solar System. So he can't be human. Unless, of course, Planet Reebok has moved?
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Colour me clueless Jo. Maybe I'd understand the quote if I knew in what context he was saying it.
... and he'd understand it, too, if he understood the context he was saying it in.
Here's my pet hate in terms of turning perfectly good nouns into perfectly bad verbs: To progress something. It's becoming common usage - at least in the IT industry - and my oft-stated position that "English is changing all the time, and we shouldn't complain" starts breaking down (as do I) whenever I hear it.
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George W. Bush Jr
I shouldn't have to point this out, but GW isn't a junior. Junior only applies when all parts of the name are the same. His father is George H. W. Bush. So be it if I sound partisan here, but calling him junior is obviously a Democrat ploy to make him sound young and inexperienced, when in fact he's two years older than Gore, who actually was a junior, but, of course, no one cares to point any of this out. . .
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In reply to:
I shouldn't have to point this out, but GW isn't a junior. Junior only applies when all parts of the name are the same. His father is George H. W. Bush. So be it if I sound partisan here, but calling him junior is obviously a Democrat ploy to make him sound young and inexperienced, when in fact he's two years older than Gore, who actually was a junior, but, of course, no one cares to point any of this out. . .
A point well made, Jazz. The refernce to Al Gore, Jr. led me to wondering about the wonderfully "regal" habit popular among some US citizens of numbering themselves a la Thurston Howell III. Is this a vestigial yearning for days of yore, or monarchist pretensions peeking out from behind a republican (note the lower case "r")
façade? A friend of mine is Rarotongan, and their custom is for sons to be called "Junior" while their father is alive, then to assume their given name on his death. My friend is the fourth to bear his given name, which he doesn't like. Even though his father is dead, he still goes by Junior, with the result that his son is known as "Junior Jr."
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I never meet anyone called "junior" here. A lot of friends have a family name which is used as a second Christian name, eg William. I don't see many people who have the same Christian names as their father - I bet the post gets a bit complicated in the mornings. When did the tradition start? I can think of Pitt the Younger and I'm sure better historians (Rhubarb Commando?) will find more examples.
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In reply to:
I never meet anyone called "junior" here. A lot of friends have a family name which is used as a second Christian name, eg William. I don't see many people who have the same Christian names as their father - I bet the post gets a bit complicated in the mornings.
Ditto for me (almost), Jo. Using a grandparent's name as a first name as a mark of respect, or continuing on a parent's name as a middle name is one thing, but in societies where there is free choice, naming your child after yourself seems the height of vanity and/or silliness and the nadir of imagination to me. Sorry if I'm offending anyone here.
I did know one family where father and son were both Murray. When talking about them (but not TO them), the mother would refer to them as "Murray" and "Young Murray".
As for postal problems, just sharing a first name initial would be bad enough. I know another family where mother and three daughters all have two-syllable names beginning with 'S'. All very alliterative, but you wouldn't want to be expecting mail of a private nature.
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There are no 'juniors' amongst Québec names either. The child might have the name of a godparent as middle name, but that is not the one he/she is known by. Usually, junior is used to denote someone who has less experience, or who has not reached professional status (eg: junior hockey league)
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Feel sorry, then for Major Major Major Major ...
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Pooh-Bah
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>Major Major Major Major
That would be a Catch 22 Catch 22!
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I have this vague feeling that it was our Sovereign Lord Henry Eighth of that name who actually introduced the idea of numbering monarchs.
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Dunno about the origins of the use of Junior, but certainly the British Public Schools had a 'minor' (followed by Tertius? and Quartus?) to show younger brothers who were going through the same school as their elders. See, in The Complete Stalky & Co (Rudyard Kipling), the story with Mr Browning, Uncle Remus and Minor and Tertius running on the sands before 'Pot' Mullins' ash... (Wish I could remember the title of the story. It'll come to me.)
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>our Sovereign Lord Henry Eighth
How interesting, One was aware that our Sovereign Lord Henry Eighth had developed a particularly fine system for the numbering of one's wives but one didn't realise that he had made a comparible contribution in the numbering of monarchs. Marvellous.
Would one be so kind as to provide one with furhter references so one can pursue the matter at one's leisure?
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One was aware that our Sovereign Lord Henry Eighth had developed a particularly fine system for the numbering of one's wives
He also had a particularly fine system for ridding himself of them ...
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expecting mail of a private nature
True - my initials are A.K. to my Dad's D.A., and we both live in Welsh houses with a name beginning Croes-y-forwyn...
But postie doesn't get confused too much - after all, he's a twin to our relief postman, and we're more likely to confuse them!
But I see no problem with noun verbing, tsuwm - it's surely a natural process of elision. Telephoning? and yes, definitely minuting: it is often used to draw attention in a meeting to a statement that is required as a formal declaration, such as "Mr Mayor, I would like it minuted that I was not doing any such thing - and anyway, it was my own goat!"
PS: the house name translates roughly as Cross of the Virgins - the name of the village is the impossible-looking EGLWYSWRW, but try rendering the W as U, and you can see the similarity to BelM's word for Church, thus betraying the Latin root of quite a bit of later Welsh.
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>But I see no problem with noun verbing, tsuwm - it's surely a natural process of elision. well sure, if there's a gaping hole, just waiting to be filled. what I find objectionable is words such as (to return to an earlier example which cropped up here) *productize*...
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Yes. I entirely agree, tsuwm. In the example of "to minute", I think it forms a useful enough shortcut for "to formally record the exact sense of..."
My only trouble in gauging this kind of formation is that I end up having to refer only to my personal (and doubtless idiosyncratic) sense of euphony to guide me in what is good, bad or indifferent. But maybe that is the best guide?
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okay, here's an example we could try for size. in our staff meetings we typically have two separate activities going on: 1) the taking of minutes; i.e., the recording of status, ideas, etc; and 2) the recording of action items; i.e., things that need to happen by a specified date in the future. you might have one person recording both, but the second gets some kind of emPHAsis. if we call the first minuting what should we call the second? actioning? actionating?! [ptooey]
I'm afraid we resort to "take an action".
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Yep, this is a problem for me too. I have frequently come across "to action" in business minutes as shorthand for "to place under an imperative order to achieve an outcome". I think it is ugly, and probably unnecessary. But others may feel it is a simple and useful word, perhaps? This is one of the rare times in my life when I feel there are too many minutes in the day
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In our meetings we have someone who takes notes and draws up a "to do" list. I am sure this is quite a common term. Usually, the items on the to do list have a critical path attached to them (the steps to follow and date restrictions et al)
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Hey, you! Why didn't you wipe your feet before taking a walk?
Those are the ugliest shoes I've ever seen.
Watch it, buster, you just stepped on another crack!
TEd
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>to-do list
and what 'action' do you take when you add to the list? "Hey Bel, make sure you to-do this..."
(too close to "ta-da" 8)
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You know, I've never noticed but you are right. There is really no one action word that is used. Generally, we just say "put that on the to do list"
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In reply to:
If you can verb an noun, can you noun a verb? I can't think of any examples.
There is a whole class of words of the form verb-prep (actually separated prefix but that's a whole nother question) such as takeoff, giveaway etc. I have a list I collected somewhere but can't seem to find it right quick. This is common in both English and Spanish (where it manifests itself as verb-noun, e.g. guardacostas for Coast Guard).
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Maverick wrote: PS: the house name translates roughly as Cross of the Virgins - the name of the village is the impossible-looking EGLWYSWRW, but try rendering the W as U, and you can see the similarity to BelM's word for Church, thus betraying the Latin root of quite a bit of later Welsh.
You know, I never thought of that. But you're quite right of course. SWMBO and I spent a few days in Wales a couple of years ago and were absolutely stumped trying to pronounce the "Welsh" Welsh place names. Carnaervon and Harlech are fine, but as for the rest .... !
Wales is an absolutely stunning place, easily the most interesting part of Britain, at least for me. While it may have something to do with the number of sheep, I'd prefer to think it was the scenery and the people, who were great. It's certainly the only country I've ever been in where I have picnicked beside a defunct nuclear power station, and the only place in the world I've been to that cooks lamb better than in Godzone.
The language is also very musical. As you may have gathered, we were altogether gob-smacked by the country, and we intend to go back and spend more time there.
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In reply to:
Wales is an absolutely stunning place, easily the most interesting part of Britain, at least for me. While it may have something to do with the number of sheep, I'd prefer to think it was the scenery and the people, who were great.
Interesting. My mother and stepfather found Wales the least enjoyable part of their last excursion to the British Isles. Mum (Kiwi born and raised) raved about Ireland, but said that she got tired of people in shops who were speaking English switching to Welsh as soon as she entered. Something similar is known to happen in the Hokianga - not exactly courteous.
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In reply to:
...but said that she got tired of people in shops who were speaking English switching to Welsh as soon as she entered...
Something similar is known to happen in the Hokianga - not exactly courteous.
Max, we weren't on the tourist routes much ... back roads, little villages. One place we stayed at, a B&B attached to a restaurant in some place with a name that began with a "D" and ended with a spit, was hosting the Welsh equivalent of a CWI meeting. They were laughing and shouting in Welsh long before they saw us. The waitress worked for the local council during the day and said that some of the locals wouldn't even speak to her on the phone unless she used Welsh. Her English was halting, I don't think she was faking it.
The shops we went into were mostly local groceries/dairies, and they switched from Welsh to English to talk to us.
The only place where Welsh was flogged as a tourist concept was at Portmeirion, but we went there because of "The Prisoner", not because it was Welsh.
I remember going into a tearooms in Wairoa in the early 1970s and hearing Maori being used conversationally for the first time by the woman behind the counter and a customer or friend. Most Maori usage I hear these days is painfully "learned" with large gaps, much the same as me speaking French. The women in that tearooms made me understand why Maori was seen as an orator's language early in the 19th century. That tearooms has been my yardstick for the fluidity and expression of Maori speech ever since!
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In reply to:
How interesting, One was aware that our Sovereign Lord Henry Eighth had developed a particularly fine system for the numbering of one's wives but one didn't realise that he had made a comparible contribution in the numbering of monarchs. Marvellous.
Would one be so kind as to provide one with furhter references so one can pursue the matter at one's leisure?
I did say vague feeling. I think I got it from the Guiness Book of Records at least a quarter of a century ago.
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In reply to:
Most Maori usage I hear these days is painfully "learned" with large gaps, much the same as me speaking French
Watching one bulletin of Te Karere provides ample confirmation of that statement. I'm fortunate enough to have friends whose first language is Maori, and they find listening to much of today's te reo painful indeed.
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Her English was halting, I don't think she was faking it...Definitely correct. I live just about on the landsker, which is an ancient divide representing the limit to which the indigenous Welsh people were pushed by waves of invaders. It still marks a blurry divide that tends to separate primarily English-as-first-language people to the south (Pembrokeshire is sometimes known as Little England Beyond Wales), and the northern area which is 65% Welsh-as-first-language. It is also marked by a ring of fabulous Norman castles, and a range of wildlife and scenery that is amongst the best in the UK. Worth checking out for anyone thinking of visiting. In the regions where Welsh is the first language, there is far less of a problem with rudeness than most parts of the world I have visited - when some anglos hear Welsh being spoken, they may not appreciate this is as natural as French in France, but it certainly is. A very high proportion of Welsh people are by nature friendly, communicative, and go out of their way to be helpful to visitors. They reserve scorn only for those who betray the prejudice of Empire. Hey, why am I telling you this - I moved to get away! Well, you are all mucho sympatico, so you are allowed to visit. Just staaaay awaaay from the sheep... A couple of sites to start at if interested:
http://www.pembrokeshirecoast.org/
http://www.pembrokeshire-online.co.uk/index.htm
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Maverick wrote: Hey, why am I telling you this - I moved to get away! Well, you are all mucho sympatico, so you are allowed to visit. Just staaaay awaaay from the sheep...
It's okay, Mav, we took our own. We do have something like 8,000 of them to choose from.
The place I referred to in my post was Dolgellau. Begins with a "D" and ends with a spit, like I said! Is this in the 65% area where people Welsh rather than welch?
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Yep. A fine area to walk and wander in the wilderness. Maaarvellous!
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Mav, stop acting the goat!
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In reply to:
That was a good get" is an example of noun verbing, one that sports commentators seem to like. Then I checked Merriam-Websters online dictionary only to find that it lists "get" as a noun with one meaning being "a return of a difficult shot in a game (as tennis)". I haven't researched it further, but I'd bet it originated from nouning a verb. There are probably a lot more like it.
A try in rugby, perhaps? As I understand it, in the early days of the game, when a player crossed the opposition's line and dotted the ball down, he was allowed to try to kick a goal, hence "a try".
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I'm not sure if anybody has already mentioned this one, but the increasing popularity of digital cellphones has led to the noun verbing I used above. The practice of sending text messages via cellphone is now called "texting" - a contraction of "text messaging." The largest digital cell network here in NZ offers the service free on Wednesdays, so you will often hear someone say, "I'll text you on Wednesday", especially if that someone is under the age of 20. "Texting" has become so rampant that examination supervisors have had to confiscate cellphones to prevent exam answers being "texted" to candidates. Nope, frequent use doesn't make it sound any better.
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I would like to condemn whoever started using this word to mean that they are convinced of something. Perhaps
Father Steve might have something to say about this: where I've seen it is in religious literature. Our former pastor would occasionally say this word, causing my teeth to be on edge. This word is being used as a verbified form
for conviction. Simple example: I am convicted that the sky is blue. Stupid!!!!! (Sorry, Auntie, I know you wish your sky would be blue.)
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I am convicted that the sky is blue. Stupid
Definitively! That's a little mannerism of mine, consciously using "definitively" for "definitely". I started doing it around at 10 years of age, and it has become ingrained. I wonder if the misuse of "convicted" had similar origins.
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Max admits Definitively! That's a little mannerism of mine, consciously using "definitively" for "definitely"..
Well, you therefore stand convicted of a definitive abuse of the English language.
One of the verbal "tics" I personally loathe is the use of "typically" to falsely reinforce your point of view. For instance, "Typically, the moon is made of Stilton cheese". Grrrrrrrrrrrrr
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> "get" as a noun with one meaning being "a return of a difficult shot in a game (as tennis)" That's not a very good dictionary. Get is either the act of begetting or the product of such act, according to my dictionary. I admit to being partial to the former, not being a tennis player. So what's love got to do with it  ?
TEd
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I had to stop using mine for that purpose, since everything got garbled, and I didn't want to be known for textual deviation.
TEd
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Jackie:
When I read your post I was amazed that someone could use convict in this manner, and assumed it was a backformation from conviction. I consulted my dictionary, and found the first definition of convict to be to find or prove guilty, but the second is interesting: to convince of wrongdoing or sinfulness. So I went to convince, and found there as an obsolete usage: to convict!!!
To me, there's something even uglier than what you cited: I convinced the person to stop his action. ARGH!!! convince is to cause someone to believe something, not to coerce!
Thanks for leading me to look. I learned something very interesting!
TEd
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In reply to:
I convinced the person to stop his action. ARGH!!! convince is to cause someone to believe something, not to coerce!
Surely convince here is being used to mean persuade, not coerce. An unnecessary extension of meaning, perhaps, but not quite as big a stretch as you make out TEd.
Bingley
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Bingley commented: Surely convince here is being used to mean persuade, not coerce. An unnecessary extension of meaning, perhaps, but not quite as big a stretch as you make out TEd.Bingley, this is what TEd's example is showing, although grammatically it may not have been perfect. If you phrase it: "I convinced (x) that he should cease carrying out his action", then you are affecting his belief that his action is correct. In fact, "Convince" seems to be rarely used in any other context. "I convinced her that completing her degree would be to her long-term benefit" seems ordinary usage. "I'm convinced that I'm correct" is tautological, but usual usage. Problem? CK
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In reply to:
Bingley commented: Surely convince here is being used to mean persuade, not coerce. An unnecessary extension of meaning, perhaps, but not quite as big a stretch as you make out TEd.
Bingley, this is what TEd's example is showing, although grammatically it may not have been perfect.
Capital Kiwi, I agree that this is what TEd's example shows, but I understood him to be saying that he objected to the example on the grounds that convict was being used in the example to mean coerce, but I don't think it is. Perhaps TEd could clarify what exactly he is objecting to.
Bingley
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>In reply to:
I convinced the person to stop his action. ARGH!!! convince is to cause someone to believe something, not to coerce!
Surely convince here is being used to mean persuade, not coerce. An unnecessary extension of meaning, perhaps, but not quite as big a stretch as you
make out TEd.
-=------
Bingley:
Let me try to be a little more clear. I am convinced of Bingley's right to believe in the deity of his choice. But it is grammatically incorrect for me to say, I convinced Bingley to leave the church of Itzenism. You have heard of the church of Itzenism, haven't you??
I can say I persuaded you to do something, or I coerced you to do something, but technically speaking convince should not be followed by an infinitive.
TEd
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*sigh* - Into the fray again ... TEd said: I can say I persuaded you to do something, or I coerced you to do something, but technically speaking convince should not be followed by an infinitive.Two things - 1. Usage changes. I personally agree with your comments here. I would say "I convinced Bingley that his adherence to the heretical creed of Itzenism was counter to the attitude of every right-thinking Boarder". 2. Others (not I) would see absolutely nothing wrong with me having said "I convinced Bingley to give up attending the High Temple of Itzenism because his adherence to the creed ... yadda, yadda". We're back to what is technically correct and what is common usage. Just remember that in experimental biology that even given a perfect environment of heat, nutrition, water and other life-related factors, the organism will do as it damned well pleases. Language is such an organism! 
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In reply to:
I can say I persuaded you to do something, or I coerced you to do something, but technically speaking convince should not be followed by an infinitive.
"I coerced you to do something" jars on me far more than "I convinced to do something". I would say "I coerced you into doing something" (not that I would, mind you, not being the coercive type), or is this another point where usage differs in different places?
PS. All right, what is the church of Itzenism?
Bingley
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Hi Bingley, up there in sunny Jakarta. You asked PS. All right, what is the church of Itzenism?
Frankly, I dunno. TEd would be your best resource for this. I took it as being a contraction of "It's an -ism". But then, cryptic crosswords have bored me silly for years, and this looks like a cryptic clue ...
So, go on, make my day. Coerce me!
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>PS. All right, what is the church of Itzenism? I was hoping you would ask [grin] Itzenism is a California church with a very simple creed: They believe in an afterlife in a heaven called Itzen. Everyone who belongs to the church goes to Itzen upon death. Period. No exceptions. I had two friends, Durward and Alexander, who were twin brothers. They grew up in the Twin Cities, married twin sisters, and went to work in California, where they were attracted to the simplicity of Itzenism. Unfortunately, they were whacked by a semi while out on a ride on their tandem bicycle. They are now buried under a single headstone that reads: Alex and Dur Souls in Itzen What the HELL happened to the last three words??? I am mortified!
TEd
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Everyone who belongs to the church goes to Itzen upon death. Period. No exceptions.
I had two friends, Durward and Alexander, who were twin brothers. They were attracted to the simplicity of Itzenism. Unfortunately, they were whacked by a semi while out on a ride on their tandem bicycle. They are now buried under a single headstone that reads: Alex and Dur Thanks, TEd, very funny. Perhaps the "Three-in-one Pun" thread should be renamed the Good Laugh Archipelago?
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In the 13 December 2000 issue of Medscape General Medicine, George D. Lundberg, MD, criticized the low rate of nonforensic autopsies conducted in America. He is pleased that a few agencies counter this trend and writes: "Fortunately, the Veteran's Administration, the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, the Agency for Healthcare Research and Quality, the Health Care Financing Administration, and selected others still care and are efforting a turnaround."
Efforting?
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FS plaintively wails Efforting?.
Perhaps the man meant effecting. Or the article was misspelt, 'or' instead of 'ec'?
[Trying to be kind emoticon]
Or, [here's the bit I like emoticon] the MD was using efforting instead of effecting as a form of effortless affectation intended to effect a favourable impression of his efforts amongst his effective audience.
How do you like them apples?
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Pooh-Bah
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>efforting
Doctors are not well known for their command of the English language (excluding a few like Jonathan Miller who have made it their profession). I suspect that they have to learn too much technical stuff (Latin names for anatomy, drugs etc) to have time to read the kind of literature that enhances our use of language. I read lots of doctors' letters, they do not make pleasant reading. I'm sure that part of the problem stems from the use of a dictating machine and too high a volume of output to allow much time to correct non-technical errors.
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lots of doctors' letters, they do not make pleasant readingTrue. Lots of doctors' letters don't even add up to recognisable words
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Mav says: True. Lots of doctors' letters don't even add up to recognisable words.You think you jest? A doctor I went to many moons ago wrote so badly that the pharmacist had to ring him to get it translated into pharmacist speak. And I still couldn't understand it.
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