|
|
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 1,385
veteran
|
OP
veteran
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 1,385 |
If one can see past the "postwar game" commentary in this passage [below], there is an interesting term "north and south nod" which is captured in the headline "Nodding is not planning". "General Garner said the administration's mistakes had made it easier for the insurgency to take hold. "John Abizaid was the only one who really had his head in the postwar game," General Garner said, referring to the general who served as General Franks's deputy and eventually his successor. "The Bush administration did not. Condi Rice did not. Doug Feith didn't. You could go brief them, but you never saw any initiative come of them. You just kind of got a north and south nod. And so it ends with so many tragic things." http://mathewgross.com/blog/archives/000846.htmlOne can nod in assent, or one can nod off. One can also nod when that is the safest thing to do. But the "north and south nod" is really a shrug. It's an "I-agree-with-you" nod, but "don't-expect-me-to-stick-my-neck-out" up and down motion. You know for certain you are getting a "north and south nod" if the nodder's eyes are glazed over.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 6,296
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 6,296 |
I hate to be dense here, plutarch, but is the north and south nod just a slow up and down movement? It's an interesting term, even if I've misunderstood it. Thanks for bringing it up.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 1,385
veteran
|
|
OP
veteran
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 1,385 |
is the north and south nod just a slow up and down movement?
I'm not quite sure either, Wordwind. But I think it's not so much the character of the nod itself [altho it's probably shallow - figuratively and literally - as well as slow and phlegmatic] but the fact that it is not accompanied by any words of encouragement, or by any follow-up action.
For me, the key to the "north and south nod" is in this bit:
You could go brief them, but you never saw any initiative come of them. You just kind of got a north and south nod.
The "north and south nod" is not a true nod of assent because it leaves the petitioner with the uneasy feeling that there is no conviction in the nod. Of course, the proof of that instinctive unease comes later when absolutely nothing happens to lend substance to the nod.
It reminds me of the expression "to damn with faint praise". The "north and south nod" damns with faint assent.
The "north and south nod" is the tell-tale sign of someone who is 'just going through the motions', in this particular case, by submitting to the ritual of the "briefing".
The nod can, in fact, serve as a polite signal that the "ritual" is over. The petitioner goes away harboring some hope that their argument was successful, and the nodder goes away without having actually said anything for which they can be held accountable later.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 176
member
|
|
member
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 176 |
I checked the web and found only one other usage of the expression, “north and south nod”. Here, from the marinatedministries.org web site, is what I found:
I wanted to give to my child some meaningful, yet, productive information so I said, "sit down child, I have to give a meaningful speech." My child sat down and I began to teach. These are the Do's and the Don'ts of life, [sic] after finishing I asked, "Do you understand?" The North and South nod of the head said you did well, Dad.
Here the usage seems to indicate that the person nodding, in addition to understanding what was said, agrees with what was said too. There is, of course, a possibility that the author of the above story isn’t sure of what the expression really means either.
Physically speaking, if one considers the head to have a north and a south, the top of the head would logically be north, and the chin would be south. A subdued up and down nod would not, in my mind, be aptly described by the phrase “north and south”. An up and down nod with exaggerated movement, i.e. the head going higher up and lower down than a normal nod, would be more in keeping with the “north and south” description. Perhaps the north and south nod is more indicative of blank agreement without understanding, or perhaps understanding with mocking agreement.
If the description “north and south” is descendant from the times of US Civil War, perhaps “north and south” originally referred to one with dual sympathies, i.e. one who was non-committal. This might explain the “non-committal” element found in General Garner’s comments.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 1,385
veteran
|
|
OP
veteran
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 1,385 |
An up and down nod with exaggerated movement, i.e. the head going higher up and lower down than a normal nod, would be more in keeping with the “north and south” description
What you say makes sense, Dgeigh. Also, I agree your new example is not consonant with my interpretation.
Of course, it is quite possible that the expression "north and south nod" has a separate, coded meaning for the military, or for General Garner who is quoted in the story, in particular.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 2,891
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 2,891 |
Are you sure they aren't talking about the up&down head nods that people give when listening. It doesn't really give assent just let you know they hear what you are saying.
It's like a visual interpretation of when somebody repeats, "uh-hum, uh-hum" when you're talking.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 3,467
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 3,467 |
The north and south nod is familiar to all government workers who have given a briefing when the facts that you have to provide are not the facts that are wanted.
It is also familiar to anyone in a bureaucracy such as a management hierarchy. The north and south nod is a condescending nonverbal expression of disdain; it says, when the hell is this guy gonna shut up so I can do what I was gonna do anyway? It's a kiss of death for any meaningful discussion of the issues.
TEd
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 21
stranger
|
|
stranger
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 21 |
when we drove down to Pintung last year in Taiwan, there was a sign that went Sorth...
that was enough of confusion...
ax
Play Chinese Squabble at www.chinesesquabble.com
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 1,385
veteran
|
|
OP
veteran
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 1,385 |
The north and south nod is a condescending nonverbal expression of disdainWhile I agree it is disdainful, TEd Rem, I'm not sure anyone would want to be disdainful to a General. So at some levels it is merely dismissive. re: "Play Chinese Squabble at www.chinesesquabble.com": Shouldn't people have to pay rent for repeated billboard exposure like that? It's not that I have anything against "Chinese Squabble", whatever that is, but how do you refuse someone promoting "Ukraine Ucher"? Or Chinese Qumquat? In fact, I have a slogan of my own I would love to promote. 
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 1,027
old hand
|
|
old hand
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 1,027 |
Are you sure they aren't talking about the up&down head nods that people give when listening. It doesn't really give assent just let you know they hear what you are saying. - this seems an interesting track to me. Now just picture somebody first moving their head up, then down - and compare this with the opposite. I can see different amounts of enthusiasm in these two responses.
|
|
|
|
Forums16
Topics13,913
Posts229,328
Members9,182
| |
Most Online3,341
Dec 9th, 2011
|
|
|
0 members (),
689
guests, and
0
robots. |
|
Key:
Admin,
Global Mod,
Mod
|
|
|
|
