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Joined: Dec 2000
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stranger
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As a newly "renaissanced" (my euphemism for "retired" :-) high school English teach, boy-oh-boy, do I have lots to say on this subject! ... lst, from my perspective, things are getting better due to the public awareness that they have to or we're all in trouble: parents are on notice, teachers always have been (imho :), & so are the students themselves. We haven't, unfortunately, quite reverted to the old days when kids could read the classics in "grammar school" (as my own mother could, e.g.), but I think we'll eventually get there. So, in a word, there is hope. Take the Chicago Public Schools, my bailiwick -- we have a great CEO who has had fabulous success in getting our system back-to-basics in a few years (with thanks to the Mayor for appointing him & to the CTU for working with him, &, oh yes, to us teachers behind the proverbial throne :-). Of course, as with any innovative process, a lot of mistakes get made, but they do get corrected, & , of course, if they would ever get around to asking us teachers what we think, all of the literacy problems would be solved!

One thing I do know, do assure you, is that the majority of teachers are wearing themselves out trying to teach: their hearts are in the right place (definitely not in their pocketbooks), but because of the problems with things non-educational (like guns, e.g., ahem), their job has become Sisyphus-like, difficult in mythological proportions, &, truly, I'm not exaggerating. [Btw, I'm not worn out, but I was good & tired when I renaissanced, & have nothing but empathy for those of my ilk still trying to roll that ol' boulder whatever up the hill.]

In case you might be interested in another teacher's methods... I would make editing (of grammar, usage, orthography, etc. :-) another lesson after my students handed in their writing [the rational being that "after" lessened the worry about making errors during the creating process]. I'd tell my students that I was their editor, the kind that professional writers have the benefit of, & that the items I'd correct (whether red, blue, or fuschia penciled) were not admonishments ("You made a mistake!") but rather tips, gifts of my time & expertise, additional learning tools. I think -- I hope! -- it helped them. (One of the "aches" in teacher [that there was an "ache" is something my teacher-mother wrote decades ago] is that you don't always know if your students are truly getting what you want to give -- some things can't always be measured by tests.)

I loved "teaching" writing in all its aspects. The trouble is that we also had to teach required literary selections, & most of these became reading lessons, they were so challenging in vocabulary, ad infinitum, and therefore, they took an endless amount of time to cover -- if we wanted our students to understand what they had to read. With all my heart, I wish there had been more humor in the required literature, something the kids would enjoy spending time on, rather than the seriousness of social &/or historical issues. Even though we would try to make it challenging & fun in some way, much of it was dreary & depressing, rather than uplifting & inspiring. So that is a curriculum change I would recommend -- if I were ever asked. :-)

Uh oh, I'm getting off the soapbox now, & my apologies for getting pedantic. :-) My main point is that there is hope for the future, that students will again want to learn, are wanting to (at least from my observations), & meanwhile, parents like yourselves are doing just what they should be doing -- it's obvious from your posts to this forum: One has to care first, right, & it's to be applauded that you certainly do. If only some of my wonderful teenagers had had parents like you, they would have had a much easier time of it.

Wispy (a.k.a. Renaissanced :-)


#12961 01/08/01 07:23 PM
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If you could do as WOW suggests-- i know being here has helped me--nothing quite like having an idea, or poorly phrased sentence ripped to shred-- and i sense everyone is looking for them--not to criticize me, but to have some fun, and if i provide the fodder– well all the better. It will be some day before i never get to open my mouth just to change feet... not that i want to do it on a daily basis.

i make much worse verbal bloopers--
when i first started to work for Xerox, i fixed the machines. One day the timing on a machine was off-- the 7mm(head size) by 15mm long screw had sheared the timing disk was slipping on the shaft. I had lots of 7mm by 10mm screws--standard equipment but no screws the right size..
I called up a supervisor, and explained my predicament. He called back right away, and was still laughing.. he said i left him the best voice mail message he ever got.. I couldn't understand. later that day, he made me listen to what i said to him..

"I need a screw--and i was wondering if you have one long enough? can we meet at the parts center, as i am just about to take a break for lunch, and could give me the screw. (i then went on to explain i needed a 7mm by 15 mm screw...)

Until i heard what i said.. i hadn't thought about how it sounded...

Wow idea is a good one, since its not like school --punitive-- but it is instructional.. done right, it could help..



#12962 01/09/01 04:37 AM
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I've been reading these posts and not commenting. Wow's idea seems reasonable, but would take a major feat of organisation to implement (we have people spread all over the show, and not all of them work for me or my boss). I'll run it up the proverbial and see who salutes.

It would appear that the idea of a proofreader/technical writer may yet fly - it didn't get slashed during the second budget focus meeting.

I'll also recommend to my female colleagues that they don't ask for screws over the phone. After I get out of hospital, I'll see what I can do.

Thanks, but keep the ideas coming, please!



The idiot also known as Capfka ...
#12963 01/09/01 09:07 AM
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nothing but empathy for those of my ilk still trying to roll that ol' boulder whatever up the hill.]

In case you might be interested in another teacher's methods... I would make editing (of grammar, usage, orthography, etc. :-) another lesson after my students handed in their writing


Okay, I can't pass this one up, especially as you go on to say my apologies for getting pedantic. :-) So I'm sure you'll take this in the right spirit.

There is no such thing as an ilk: it's not a kind or kidney or class. The word means 'same' and exists only by virtue of the expression 'of that ilk', where 'that' is an oblique case of 'the'. It is used in territorial designations of Scottish families: where there is a place called, say, Hamilton, giving rise to a surname of Hamilton (or de Hamilton). If this family then spreads it is necessary to differentiate the Hamiltons of Strathcona from the Hamiltons of Hamilton. These latter are called Hamilton of that Ilk, i.e. Hamilton of the same.

As this is a technical term of heraldry or land tenure, I think it's a mistake to misuse it and misuse can't be sanctioned by continued usage.


#12964 01/09/01 09:15 AM
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I think it's a mistake to misuse it and misuse can't be sanctioned by continued usage.

Rather begging the question. The imposition or withholding of sanction isn't our call, it will be taken by the misusers. The end result may or may not be a permanent change which becomes the "accepted" usage. You been reading Cervantes again, NicholasW?



The idiot also known as Capfka ...
#12965 01/09/01 04:53 PM
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stales:

you said: > Amongst other things, we test each shortlisted candidate's "Verbal Reasoning" skills and report them as a percentile against an appropriate statistical population (in our case between 500 and 5000 previous "test-ees" - bit of recruitment humour there!!) As we are inevitably dealing with tertiary qualified people, it is (I suppose) pleasing to report that the great majority fall in the upper 50th percentile - because we're comparing them to each other and not ranking them by the correctness.

If you are testing them among themselves, the great majority cannot fall into the upper 50th percentile, can they? If I remember my stats course correctly, exactly one half will fall into the upper 50th percentile and one half will fall below.

TEd

PS

What's a tertiary qualified person? From the context I assume it's someone who is qualified for education above the secondary level, i.e., a person who would be accepted at university.

TR




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old hand
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It's a fair cop guv.

The original text lacked the percentile bit and thus looked a bit wishy washy. Didn't think through all the ramifications of my partial rewrite.

Very surprised that you are unfamiliar with the term "tertiary qualifications". It's one of those that are are taken for granted and in everyday use here in Oz. We refer to primary (school years K-6 or 7), secondary (6 or 7-10 or 12) and tertiary (University, college etc) education. Thus tertiary qualifications are degrees, diplomas etc. Trade qualifications on the other hand, are typically commenced at the end of Year 10, in lieu of Year 11 and 12.

stales


#12967 01/09/01 06:16 PM
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NicholasW states: I think it's a mistake to misuse it and misuse can't be sanctioned by continued usage.

CapK retorts: The imposition or withholding of sanction isn't our call

If Humpty Dumpty was wrong to assign a definition to a word arbitrarily, would he be wrong if he were also to deny a definition to a word arbitrarily?

This particular misuse is, at least according to the AHD, over one hundred years old.


#12968 01/09/01 07:10 PM
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W3 - which is admittedly a snapshot rather than a history - gives ilk a separate entry as "family, sort, kind", a synonym of type, and has the following citation:

<determinists, materialists, agnostics, behaviorists and their ilk -John Dewey>

(must be part of the Dewey classification system ;)


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>"tertiary qualifications"

Yep, we use it to. It tends to be used when discussing the kind of job which assumes that the majority of candidates have achieved a degree or equivalent, without having to go into extensive lists.


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