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shanks Offline OP
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Since this rant is not directed at any particular person, I hope my vehemence, nay even naked aggression, intemperance and vitriol, will be forgiven.

As some of you may be aware, I swing both ways : I have deep cultural roots in India and England [anticlimax emoticon]. As a result, in anglophone situations, while I stubbornly defend English traditions, I will usually allow them to be subject to the recognition of prior claims of possession by cultures from which the language has only recently borrowed words, phrases or ideas.

Gandhi, in my opinion, is one such recent borrowing, and should, therefore, be accorded the respect of:
a) following the Inidan orthography; and
b) following, as far as possible for anglophone tongues, Indian pronunciation (or more specifically, the mixed Hindi-Gujarati standard for pronunciation of the word).
Accordingly I will now now make the case for the former, and then try to explain the latter.

I have often heard people say that names are not real words, and hence there are no rules about how they should be pronounced or speeled. I find this reasoning inexplicable. The given names, as opposed to the taxonomic names, of living things are defined by the giver. In the case of a pet this is usually the owner, and in the case of a person it is usually a parent. Once defined, I feel, that name is fixed, and others do not have the option of treating it as if it were mere clay, mouldable to their orthographic or vocal whims.

[A digression: my animadversion in this regard is towards those who give, as proper names, diminutives, or logomorphs (changed or corrupted words, IMIU) and refuse to acknowledge or appreciate the difference between those and the originals. A person christened Dan has a different (and IMO inferior, connotatively and euphonically) name from one christened Daniel, even though the latter may most commonly also be referred to as Dan. The former can never be a Daniel come to judgement! Back to the topic at hand, however...]

When a name in a language that is not English is rendered in the Roman script, for English speakers, complications ensure. Is Atahualpa a fair rendition of the Inca emperor's name? Have we actually appropriated a Spanish rendition, itself a logomorph based upon Hispanic vocal paradigms? Here, I believe, we have to find a balance between our customs and practice, and respect for given names and cultural preferences of those named.

I have stated before my preference, in our times, for a 100 year amnesty. If a name has been rendered in our language in a particular, albeit inaccurate, way for over 100 years, let it be, I say. For any name more recently imported (or brought to our notice) we should make every effort to achieve some semblance of accuracy - either through as phonetic a rendition as possible, or through accpetance of the form favoured by the native users of that language and name. Ignorance, or neglect of this principle, is what led so many Indians in the early 1980s to be in awe of the English all-round cricketer they called Iron Bottom. (Ayleurs from cricket-playing countries should get the reference.)

My final defence of point a) relies, strangely enough, upon custom and practice in written Egnlish. If, in English texts, Gandhi is more common than Ghandi, then upon what grounds will the minority of Ghandi-ans base their usage, particularly if they are not even the Indian owners of the name?

"Norra lotta people know this" but the word's third largest English-language publishing industry is in India. It is behind only those of the US and the UK. So yes, it is larger than those of Canada, Australia, New Zealand or South Africa. Given that the majority of these books are likely to be textbooks (I remember reading in the '80s that India turned out more science graduates than any country bar the US and the USSR), I presume that the word Gandhi appears many more times in print than the corruption Ghandi.

I have laid out my primary argument and would now like to supplement it with a description of the pronunciation of the word and, adventitiously, show why it too supports my case.

Whilst this may not represent phonetic best practice, I will split the word into five sounds: G, A, N, DH and I. I will describe their pronunciation, using where possible English equivalents. Finally, I will also attempt to show why, in terms of the English Roman script, this spelling is the most reasonable.

G is the sound of the g in garotte or goose. It is not the mildly aspirated gh in ghoul. In English, g is the most common way in which this sound is transcribed.

A is the sound of the first a in fart. Not the one in fat, or in fate. Nor even the one in fraught (those who pronounce Nepal in that way - beware). Again, in English, this sound is most commonly represented by a - the alternative aa being used, I suspect, only in words borrowed from languages that also use the Roman script: eg aardvark.

N is the sound of the n in anthrax. To Hindi or Gujarati speakers this is distinct from the n sound in under, anchor/angler or melange; and is, even to English ears, different from that in answer, unnecessary or unregenerate.

DH has no English equivalent. It is like a cross between the plosive d of Home Simpson's 'Doh' and the soft British (RP) th in 'the'. The combination dh is also rare (I think non-existent?) in English, so is unlikely to be confused with the d sound of bode or dog.

I is closest to the ee in feet, though it is flatter, not taking on the diphthongal quality it has in marked RP. To that extent, this is the one place in which the standard Indian orthography could be improved. In any case, it should never be pronounced like the i in fight or bite. The French i in vite is much closer.

My rant is nearly done. I promised, however, some vitriol and, besides the choice of examples in the prnunciation guide, here it is.

It is my opinion that those who spell Gandhi Ghandi, or pronounce it GAN-dye are suffering from either:
a) woeful ignorance; or
b) intolerable, culturally imperialistic, arrogance;
or a combination of the two.

I pause for a reply.

cheer

the sunshine warrior

ps. Many of these arguments also apply to my prefernece of Gujarat over Gujerat as the English-Roman rendition of the name of the Indian State that was M K ("Mahatma") Gandhi's home state. The vowel in question is closest to the English schwa ("the neutral, unaccented vowel"). Most Indian languages however, like Classical Greek, use syllabic length rather than stress for their rhythm. So the 'a' is simply the neutral vowel, and probably the commonest sound in Hindi.

pps. Apologies for any typos - am not using a word processor.


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Wow! Thank you for the detailed explanation of how to pronounce Mr Mohandas' family name. I was staggered to learn that there could be anybody anywhere who spelled it any way other than Gandhi. I was also suprised to learn that "Gujerat" even existed as a spelling for the state I have only ever known as Gujarat. I grew up with neighbours whose origins were from Gujarat (adj. Gujarathi?), and have never seen the state or the language spelled any other way. Is there any chance you could record the correct pronunciation of Gandhi, and upload it to AWADabilia to demonstrate your excellent summary?

On the whole issue of spelling personal names, and endeavouring to emulate orignal-language pronunciation as closely as possible, I am entirely on your side. My own real name is forever being mispelled as people choose the more common of two spelling options, and I hate it. I also regard it nothing more than basic common courtesy to try to pronounce someone's name the way they do, to the best of my ability. I have found that asking for assistance in doing this can be a great way to build a rapport, and the pleasure it gives the other person is well worth the minimal effort involved. Continue to fight the good fight, my friend, I for one would join you in the trenches on this. I just hope that you are more successful than the boys from White Hart Lane were: 2-0
Sorry, couldn't resist!


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May one (with some trepidation, I might add) inquire as to what brought on this [rant]? Like MaxQ, I have only ever seen Gandhi's name spelt this way. Ditto for Gujarat. I do have to admit to the common pronunciation of "Gandhi" even though I have known for yonks that it isn't pronounced that way in India (or by other speakers of more inflected languages). But that really affects only the pronunciation of the "a". I have never heard anyone pronounce the "i" to rhyme with "tie".



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My sweet shanks, I am with you and Max 100%. A person's name is their very own, and no one has the right to make
arbitrary changes to it. I, like Max, have an unusual spelling of my first name, and the more common spelling does not set me off--but being shortened to "Jack" does!
Grr-rr! I have, in my time, acquired pet names, which I adore because they are a sign of affection. I have also
(back in school, mostly) acquired some uncomplimentary monikers.

I have seen Mr. Gandhi's name spelled Ghandi. I suspect U.S.'ns are less concerned with things of former UK colonies that UK'ans are [going out on a limb e]. I heartily agree that a cavalier attitude towards someone's
name is disrespectful, to say the least. And, Sweetie, your post did not seem to me to be full of "vehemence, nay even naked aggression, intemperance and vitriol". But I am sorry that you have had to deal with this upsetting situation.


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Likewise, I have not seen Gandhi spelled otherwise (or maybe more accurately, if I have, it didn't hit a button with me). I feel the need to echo Cap'n Krunch's query as to "What brought this on?", although I understand the sensation of being that camel under that final straw. And as is the case of some copy editor who found it appropriate to label a point on a map of Southern California "San Dieago", recent census statistics indicate a population boom in Simpletonia.

cheer right back atcha, sunshine


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shanks Offline OP
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Hey Max

Am not in a position to do recordings etc right now - and in any case, after so many years, my accent will probably sound too anglicised for genuine speakers of Hindi etc. My guess is that Avy might be a better candidate - I, sight unseen (or hearing unlistened?) would ouch for the probably definitiveness of her pronunciation.

As for the 2-0 nonsense (and the unfortunate evangelist who's taken us over) let's wait until next weekend when the real match is played. (Knowing my luck I'll be burying my head even further in the sand...)

cheer

the sunshine warrior

ps. Gujarati, not Gujarathi, is the standard I use.


#25570 04/01/01 02:19 PM
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shanks Offline OP
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Like Pompeii I have (in my own mind at least - where I am legend, for I am many ) long been simmering over this issue. On re-reading a 'teenage' book I thoroughly enjoy, I noticed the protagonist using the Ghandi spelling. Also, alas, I have noticed (and I cannot now remember where) a number of otherwise authoritative sources using this spelling, as also the Gujerat variant, particularly over the past year or so (my noticing them, that is).

So it just boiled over.

But hey, does one need a reason for a good, long rant? Think of it merely as a case of spontaneous combustion - inexplicable but bloody hot.

cheer

the sunshine warrior


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shanks Offline OP
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Aye, Suryaputri my love, the emotion lasted only a brief while. Long enough, however, for me to start writing my li'l diatribe. As for the vitriol etc, it was meant as a bit of self-deprecatory April foolery, as also to defuse any unintentional concern, anxiety, sensitivity or pain I might have caused.

Yours, as always

the singing ("...but pc, always pc") in the rainer


#25572 04/01/01 04:20 PM
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Why not send a note to The Great and Wise Anu ... perhaps his Lady With The Lovely Voice could do the pronunciation as she does for A Word A Day.
??????????
wow


#25573 04/01/01 04:29 PM
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Excellent idea, wow!


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