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Joined: Dec 2000
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Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Dec 2000
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As I suspected I would.... here goes: Ears are not calculators.
Some are better at it than others, I suppose.
When we speak to each other we process a very complex set of *equations that are quite quickly and accurately (for the most part ) resolved into meaning, intent, accent and perhaps even *direction. Language is quite firm in most of those four divisions (I'm sure there are plenty other ways to analyze that I'm missing, but... and notwithstanding what we'all doing here)
Music doesn't make hardly any of those as clear as speech, yet in spite of this can be transcribed about as easily (with training, of course). Scribing the semantics of music is futile even if meaning is often prescribed (eg "fate"=Beethoven's 5th Symph. theme), but the meanings of 'musical' sounds are a personal overlayment. Intent, like language, draws from context, but unlike language (ie: without consistant meaning) is again strictly a personal endeavor. An "accent", comparing music and language, is probably the most mathematically based of those as the ear can tell the style of music (again, if trained) with about as much of a sample as one would need to tell what general accent a person is speaking... an "aural statistic" (so-to-speak).
The rules for music are much less stringent and at the same time, within this universality, we only listen/hear a fraction of the possibilities it offers and therefore create more anticipation of understanding of it than we do a wonder of its newness. This may speak toward my suggestion of 'direction'... ... Yada, yada, yada... etcetera, etcetera, etcetera... ******** OK. So... three more *sets of comparison do I offer. These I give as, again, part of what a composer of words (a poet, perhaps) and a composer of music does mold as they do thier thing: Choice Emphasis Arrangement (props to T.S.Elliot, I believe) With these in mind, are we not composing as we speak? Granted: communication through sound is a primary goal *there, but other than 'trees falling in woods', what ain't? Calculating (or perhaps 'deconstruction') is exactly what we do... and, of course, rather quickly reconstructing as a response/resolution, as well. Just thinkin' out loud. 
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Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 1,819
Pooh-Bah
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Pooh-Bah
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 1,819 |
At the risk of sounding grouchy, musick, I ask: can you edit that a little bit to be clearer? I can't follow your train of thought. (Alternatively, abandon meaning altogether if you wish but make it sound pretty.)
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 5,400
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 5,400 |
Ok, to start, i am tone deaf. (really, truly)
second, i am hampered in written communication, because my dyslexia often robs me of the ability to read 'tone' clearly (a glaring example? i don't think P.G. Woodhouse is funny when read)
but i agree, humans communicate in music, (and even a person like myself, who has trouble with music,) they are, (or can be) emotional stirred (in a reasonable consistant way) by musical performences. (even i get the message. a bit crudely perhaps, the fine detail that others hear, i miss)
as for language, (spoken language) i often comprehend far beyond my 'ability'(vocabulary) in the tone used in spoken language --and i get (the message) far beyond understanding in words.
i don't speak (never did) Yidish, but when i was younger (and lived in a community where yidish was commonly spoken) i also attended (ok, only once) a play performed in yidish, and 'got it' i understood enough of the language to be able to follow the play (ok, so it was a comedy, and a pretty simple plot)
today, spanish is nuch more common in my life, and i understand spanish frequently.. (two building workers will be speaking to each other in spanish, and i will understand the conversation (and this is often dull maintenece stuff, not gossip, but "how'd the job go, with the lights? any problems?" sort of stuff- i am amazed at how much spanish i 'understand'
and i think a percentage of that understanding has to do with the 'music' of the language.
some years ago, on NOVA(more than 15!) there was a program on sound value's. a group of people (college kids mostly, but others too) were asked to, with buzzer/noise maker similar to a door bell, --a single toned door bell--to make noises that sounded happy, sad, angry, fearful, -a whole range of emotions.
they did--and in a fairly consistant way. by making light taps, or pressing down heavy, or fluttering noises, there was a somewhat (about 75% or so) of an agreement, that certain noises --that was really all the buzzer could make was noise, not music-- evoked emotionaly responses.
i don't have the language or the musical training (or the innate skill) to understand music the way musick does. nor have i ever read anything (or seen anything) about a 'language' of music that is somewhat universal.
or is it cultural, do we learn the happy, sad, angry noises that our culture has agreed on?--with different noises having different meanings in other musical heritages?
but there are enough here, who are not only language mavins, but musical as well, and a discussion here might (might? who am i kidding!) be often beyond my comprehension, i suspect i would read it, in fits and starts, and my handicaps of language would not totally rob me of the ability to acheive a better understanding of both music and language.
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Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 11,613
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 11,613 |
I have missed these wonderful discussions--we used to have them all the time! Golly, where to start? There's so much here that I have two windows open, to make going back and forth easier. Ears are not calculators. No, but our brains are. Input of sound alone is not enough; there has to be a working connection to what interprets that sound. musick, if I got this right, you are saying in your opening post that music shares at least four divisions with language: meaning, intent, accent and perhaps even *direction. And that in music, interpretation of meaning (semantics) and intent is pretty much strictly personal. The rules for music are much less stringent Would you please elaborate on why you said that? I'm not sure at this point that I could agree with it. I like your comparison between musical style and accent! I'd never thought about that before, but you're right. we only listen/hear a fraction of the possibilities Mm--you mean like, quarter-tones, and, say, wolf tones? (Hi, insel!) And chords with new nuances to them?   therefore create more anticipation of understanding of it than we do a wonder of its newness. This may speak toward my suggestion of 'direction'...
Do you mean that we get so used to certain patterns that we get so lazy or complacent that we either do not, or cannot, hear/recognize something new for what it is? That we hear what we're expecting to hear? Examples: much music of the Orient sounds odd to us; and when Beethoven's music was first played it sounded cacophonous to people of that day. As to: Choice
Emphasis
Arrangement (props to T.S.Elliot, I believe)
With these in mind, are we not composing as we speak? Yes, but speaking of expectations: I was unreasonably outraged the other day when a crossword puzzle clue was "composer" and the answer turned out to be T.S. Eliot! Grr--he's not a composer, he's a writer! Helen, that's so cool that you can understand languages you've not studied! I don't think I could do that--not unless it involved a lot of obvious gesturing! That study of buzzer noises sounds fascinating; and I think it relates to what musick said about anticipation of understanding. Did you, as one of the audience, know ahead of time what emotion the next sound was supposed to represent? If so, do you think it affected your interpretation? Query: is there a term equivalent to tone deaf for one who has little understanding/appreciation for art? Because that sure fits me. If I like the way it looks, then I "appreciate" it, but I don't look for, oh, what kinds of things it represents, etc. For ex., a friend recently went to a Matisse exhibit and sent me a link to the web site. There was an overall theme to the pictures, but I completely missed it, even though I've studied different artistic styles (a long time ago). For ex., he did one of a seated young lady wearing a green dress; I didn't like that one because all it looked like to me was that someone had in fact painted from real life but didn't quite have the talent to get her just right--I remember her chin in particular looked "off". His abstract ones didn't bother me at all, like that, because I wasn't expecting them to look realistic.
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Pooh-Bah
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Pooh-Bah
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I'd say that music and language overlap. They share some common properties such as rhythm, tone, inflection, pitch, volume, etc, and each has some unique qualities as well. Language is primarily a means of communicating explicit information. If say the eagle flies at midnight, it may mean that a raptor will take flight one minute after 11:59 PM, or it may mean something else by some agreed upon code, but it typically conveys a specific idea. Music on the other hand is a direct experience of sound waves. Our ears pick up compression waves in a medium, typically air, and our brains produce neurological sensations that are direct analog signals of the compression waves. The human brain is capable of discerning and appreciating a wide variety of sounds with a great deal of subtlety, varying from one individual to another. Music is the art of creating combinations of sounds that are pleasing or at least interesting. (For example I don't find Penderecki's "Threnody to the Victims of Hiroshima" to be especially pleasing, at least not in the same way as Bach's Air from the Orchestral Suite No. 3 In D Major, but it is interesting.) A writer can draw on musical qualities when composing. For example the sentence "It's got a lot of glottal stops" has a staccato quality. (And if you say it with a Cockney accent, it's got a lot of glottal stops.) Naturally when writers are creating lyrics to go with music they seek to exploit the musical qualities of language. For example Chuck Berry's lyrics often manage to be both conversational and yet rhythmically pleasing ("Well early in the morning I'm a-giving you the warning: don't you step on my blue suede shoes"). Rhyming is another example of a musical quality to language. The appreciation of rhyming does not depend on the meaning of the words, although the meaning may add to the impact of the sentence. But a writer can also distinguish his work with techniques probably beyond that of the musician, punning being one example. The apprehension of the humor of a pun is an interpretive act by the brain. I may enjoy a Brazilian singer's performance despite no knowledge of Portuguese, but I may miss out on the deeper wit of the lyrics. The guitarist/singer/songwriter Mark Knopfler (formerly of Dire Straits) has a voice on the guitar that I find very expressive. Often, his long solos seem to borrow from the inflections of storytelling, with a gradual buildup of tension and pace leading to a climax and then a denoument. (cf "Tunnel of Love" from the Dire Straits recording Making Movies.)
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Carpal Tunnel
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