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Posted By: wow Creative - 10/31/03 01:16 PM
Check out http://www.google.com and the logo they have for Oct. 31. They are a creative group!
Booo !
Happy Halloween!

Posted By: Jackie Re: Creative - 10/31/03 01:46 PM
Oh, that's great! Thank you, and a Happy Halloween to you!
That reminds me--didn't we discuss on here, one time, the origin of Halloween? Could some kind soul find it for me, or just tell me, please? I would like to enlighten my son.

Posted By: AnnaStrophic Re: Creative - 10/31/03 04:11 PM
Jackie, my best guess is that it's a conflation of the Celtic Samhain and the Catholic All Saints Day (Day of the Dead), which is an especially big holiday in Mexico. I'm sure others will be able to shed more detailed light.

Madam Wow, thanks for pointing that out! I don't use google every single day, so I might have missed it.
Posted By: Jackie Re: Creative - 10/31/03 05:35 PM
Mm--thanks, Anna. I put Samhain (which I, in my ignorance, pronounce exactly as it looks to me: sam {as in the name} hain {rhymes with pain}) into wow's link--appropriate, wasn't it!-- and found:
Samhain marks one of the two great doorways of the Celtic year, for the Celts divided the year into two seasons: the light and the dark, at Beltane on May 1st and Samhain on November 1st. Some believe that Samhain was the more important festival, marking the beginning of a whole new cycle, just as the Celtic day began at night. For it was understood that in dark silence comes whisperings of new beginnings, the stirring of the seed below the ground. Whereas Beltane welcomes in the summer with joyous celebrations at dawn, the most magically potent time of this festival is November Eve, the night of October 31st, known today of course, as Halloween.

Samhain (Scots Gaelic: Samhuinn) literally means “summer's end.” In Scotland and Ireland, Halloween is known as Oíche Shamhna, while in Wales it is Nos Calan Gaeaf, the eve of the winter's calend, or first. ...Throughout the centuries, pagan and Christian beliefs intertwine in a gallimaufry of celebrations from Oct 31st through November 5th...

http://www.celticspirit.org/samhain.htm
I like the ourtrageousness of the word gallimaufry--it's just so in-your-face, I-don't-care-if-you-don't-know-my-meaning. Here's what Gurunet has for it:
gal·li·mau·fry (găl'ə-mô'frē)
n., pl. -fries.

A jumble; a hodgepodge.

[French galimafrée, from Old French galimafree, sauce, ragout : probably galer, to make merry; see gallant + mafrer, to gorge oneself (from Middle Dutch moffelen, to open one's mouth wideof imitative origin).]




Posted By: sjmaxq Re: Creative - 10/31/03 06:17 PM
> I put Samhain (which I, in my ignorance, pronounce exactly as it looks to me: sam {as in the name} hain {rhymes with pain})

I used to do the same, Jackie. Because it was here that I learned its correct pronunciation, I tried using it in a pun some weeks ago, but, not only did its intended recipient miss the pun, a typo in a post explaining the pun was presumed by that person to be a Maaori word. The only thing worse than having to explain a joke is having the explanation go worng.

Posted By: Buffalo Shrdlu Re: Creative - 10/31/03 08:06 PM
I'd love to hear you pronounce it, max.

Posted By: sjmaxq Re: Creative - 10/31/03 08:32 PM
Well, I normally pronounce it SOW-in (ow rhymes with plough).

Posted By: Buffalo Shrdlu Re: Creative - 10/31/03 08:36 PM
ow rhymes with plough

pluff? ploo? plow?

I put the italics on the wrong word. it should have read:
I would like to hear you pronounce it...

Posted By: sjmaxq Re: Creative - 10/31/03 08:56 PM
Gee, etaoin, why didn't you just say so?
http://maxqnz.com/samhain.mp3

Posted By: Buffalo Shrdlu Re: Creative - 10/31/03 09:06 PM
thanks!!

I'm starting a collection...

Posted By: JohnHawaii Halloween origin - 11/01/03 01:01 AM
I will not vouch for any part of this; but I received it in my e-mail today and will pass it along:

The History of Halloween in America

The Irish brought the holiday to the United States in the 1840's. Americans adopted the Jack-o'-lantern, a tradition started in Ireland as a result of folklore. The folk legend goes that Jack, a troublemaking old miser, trapped Satan in a tree and forced him to promise he'd never tempt Jack again. But upon his death, Jack found he couldn't get into heaven because of his earlier sins, or the underworld because of the trick he had played on Satan. So Jack was forced to walk the earth for eternity with only a coal in a hollowed-out turnip to light his way. Thus was born "Jack of the lantern," or the jack-o'-lantern.

Special decorations went up using colors that reflect the ancient origins: orange signifying harvest and black signifying death. Skeletons were added from the Day of the Dead festival celebrated in Mexico. Candy was chosen over soul cakes, costumes became funny as well as scary,

The first card made its appearance in 1920. In 1950, a group of Sunday school children decided to trick-or-treat for money for needy children rather than candy. They raised and donated $17.00 and started the tradition of trick-or-treating for UNICEF.

Halloween appears to be here to stay, so let the haunting begin



Posted By: belMarduk Re: Halloween origin - 11/01/03 02:23 AM
Well it's 10:17 and Halloween is finished!

Not enough kiddies came to the house this year. Well, let me rephrase that...not enough kiddies came to finish off all the candy we got.

My Hubby very kindly offered to polish of the mini chocolate bars. Ain't he a peach

Posted By: sjmaxq Re: Halloween origin - 11/01/03 02:32 AM
Halloween (and t-o-t) is slowly gaining acceptance here, but faces both its lack of traditional significance, and a backlash against what is seen as US cultural imperialism. Last year, I saw maybe three groups of kids out, this year maybe five. None came here, which was disappointing as I had determined to give the requested treats conditionally, to any who could spell and say the original Celtic name of the festival. Sadly, I never got the chance.

Posted By: AnnaStrophic Re: Halloween origin - 11/01/03 12:58 PM
Max! I love that and am sorry you didn't have your chance. As we Cubs fans say, wait till next year.

And JohnH, sounds about right to me.

Posted By: belMarduk Re: Halloween origin - 11/01/03 02:26 PM
ARRRGGGHHHH Noooooooooooooooooooo !!!!!

Max, you can't become one of those neighbours that humiliate the kiddies by making them jump through hoops to get the candy.

"Tu'm chante tu une tit chanson" (will you sing me a little song) was the phrase all kiddies dreaded to hear when they rang a doorbell.

Posted By: Jackie Re: Halloween origin - 11/01/03 03:28 PM
Hi JH; yes, that fits with what we saw on the History Channel last night. It talked about how it originated with the Celts. They showed a modern-day pagan ritual that made me laugh out loud; then they showed a fundamentalist Christian saying why his church was against the holiday, which also made me laugh out loud, until they showed the "haunted house" the church had: full of scenarios of people suffering for eternity due to various sins--then I stopped laughing abruptly. (NOTE: I am not inviting a religious debate, here. If anyone wants to know why I laughed, or has any comment, please PM me.)
The show went on to say that the Puritans in what was to become the U.S. were dead-set against it, because they associated it with Catholicism and the Church of England. But some of the southern states, primarily Virginia, had been settled by people of these 2 faiths, and so Halloween was kept alive here, and had some of the same things we have today, such as costumes and bobbing for apples. Oh, that reminds me: I was grateful to the pagan guy for explaining that the apple was the ancient sacred symbol of the harvest; the link I put above left me in the dark, on that. Then the show went on to where your message started, John, with the influx of Irish bringing the celebration and fun with them. They had been carving turnips, but found pumpkins much easier.


Posted By: Wordwind Re: Halloween origin - 11/01/03 03:41 PM
And we talked about carving turnips here last Halloween, wasn't it? Or Halloween before last? Pumpkins might be easier, but, heavens, a carved turnip, no matter how large, just wouldn't be as pretty.

Posted By: tsuwm Re: Samhain - 11/01/03 11:09 PM
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/magazine/3222159.stm

Posted By: Wordwind Re: Samhain - 11/02/03 12:35 AM
What follows is from OneLook's word of the day (most requested on the site today):

Samhain is the winter season of the ancient Celts. The Celts divided the year into four quarters: Samhain (winter), Imbolc (spring), Beltane (summer), and Lughnasadh (autumn). The Celtic year began in November, with Samhain.

Interesting to think about the beginning of the year being a fallow, cold time--a darker time of year. Kind of like the embryo or fetus in darkness.

Posted By: tsuwm Re: Samhain - 11/02/03 03:28 AM
>Interesting to think about the beginning of the year being a fallow, cold time...

yeah, nothing at all like beginning the year in January.
-joe f. tundra

Posted By: sjmaxq Re: Samhain - 11/02/03 07:23 AM
In reply to:

Interesting to think about the beginning of the year being a fallow, cold time...

yeah, nothing at all like beginning the year in January.



Damn straight! It's nothing like starting the year in the baking sunshine of January.

Posted By: belMarduk Re: Samhain - 11/02/03 04:50 PM
Oh tsuwm, you've made my day. I haven't laughed so hard in a long time.


From the article...

Other churches and Christian families explore different alternatives to Halloween. Some have pumpkin parties where they carve letters instead of ghoulish faces, so the pumpkins spell out Bible verses.

Others go from door to door (dressed unsatanically, of course), but instead of demanding sweets with menaces give out leaflets about Jesus.


Yipeee!!!






Posted By: Wordwind Re: Samhain - 11/02/03 05:44 PM
You just didn't understand the point I was trying to make. It is interesting that the year should begin in the coldest, darkest time of year.

The Japanese begin their year in the spring, which makes a lot more sense to me.

Posted By: sjmaxq Re: Samhain - 11/02/03 06:04 PM
> It is interesting that the year should begin in the coldest, darkest time of year.

It doesn't.



Posted By: Buffalo Shrdlu Re: Samhain - 11/02/03 08:11 PM
WW, the earth is shaped like a pumpkin...

Posted By: tsuwm Re: Samhain - 11/02/03 08:38 PM
>You just didn't understand the point I was trying to make. It is interesting that the year should begin in the coldest, darkest time of year.

<sigh> but, of course, I did -- here on the frozen tundra, January 20 is on average the coldest day of the coldest month, and the darkest day (or at least the longest night) is December 21/22. (yes, the cold lags the dark by about a month.)

the year *does begin in the coldest, darkest time of year.
-ron o.

Posted By: Wordwind Re: Samhain - 11/03/03 12:23 AM
I don't understand why everybody's gone and gotten all so technical on me. I was just thinking in general terms. Seems the Japanese have it better. The cherry blossoms bloom and it's the beginning of the year. That makes wonderful sense to me--and all this solstice, darkest, coldest calculating kind of ways of figuring out beginnings seems bleak somehow.

I know the earth's shaped like a pumpkin, et', and a mishapen pumpkin at that. And I realize those people on the other end have their consciousness of seasons opposite to those of us who live at my own end. If this board teaches one nothing else, it is people at the other end like to rub it in that they're at the top of the world. I suppose they are at least during winter when they run around in their t-shirts and shorts. This whole discussion is Samhain else, ain't it.

Posted By: Buffalo Shrdlu Re: Samhain - 11/03/03 12:30 AM
Samhain else



Posted By: sjmaxq Re: Samhain - 11/03/03 12:55 AM
>Sowin else? I don't get it.

Posted By: dxb Re: Samhain - 11/03/03 12:48 PM
I don't understand why everybody's gone and gotten all so technical on me.

I knew what you meant, WW, and I agree with you.

This year, I must admit that we have had such a marvellous late summer and autumn that the tree colours are quite amazing (no need to go to New England to leaf-peep) and if the year ended at Halloween then it would at least have gone out in a blaze of glory. Thing is it looks like carrying on that way for a while into the Celtic new year.

We need lots of rain this winter.

Posted By: belMarduk Re: Samhain - 11/04/03 12:10 AM
Wait, I thought the world was shaped like a pear. That's what they taught us in school?!

Posted By: Zed Re: Samhain - 11/04/03 12:24 AM
No it just seems to have gone pear-shaped some days.

Posted By: Buffalo Shrdlu Re: Samhain - 11/04/03 12:27 AM
oblique spheroid is the correct term, I believe. I was just trying to give the concept of a sphere a topical twist. the whole southern/northern hemisphere idea needs a little mentioning now and then...

Posted By: sjmaxq Re: oblique - 11/04/03 12:38 AM
Oblate, I always thunk it was.

Posted By: wofahulicodoc obloquy - 11/04/03 12:39 AM
oblique spheroid

Oblate spheroid, as I recall from Hogwash # whatever-it-was....

edit: There I go again, a minute late and a mantle short...

Second edit: It was "Round September 02". http://wordsmith.org/board/showflat.pl?Cat=&Board=wordplay&Number=81502
Posted By: Zed Re: oddities - 11/04/03 12:44 AM
And I just realized that if Greenwich is a longitude 0 then part of England is in the eastern hemisphere!!
I don't know why this strikes me as so odd, where I live we fly due west to get to the "Far East" and north east to get to Western Europe.

Posted By: Buffalo Shrdlu Re: oddities - 11/04/03 01:08 AM
ah, oblate it is. too much pie, I guess...

o-bladi-o-blada...

Posted By: belMarduk Re: oddities - 11/04/03 01:26 AM
oblique spheroid or oblate spheroid...don't be trying to confuse me with your wordy shinanigans...

What is it, pumpkin or pear shaped?

Posted By: Buffalo Shrdlu Re: oddities - 11/04/03 01:32 AM
http://regentsprep.org/Regents/earthsci/units/introduction/oblate.cfm

umm, a nice, almost round pumpkin...

Posted By: Wordwind Re: oddities - 11/04/03 12:47 PM
From et's link above:

Models are representations of objects that aid in our understanding. If we were to choose a scale model of the Earth, what objects would make a good miniature Earth? We might be tempted to choose an oblate object to show the true shape, but that would be inaccurate! Since the Earth is so slightly oblate, and the Earth's relief is so insignificant in comparison with its size, the best scale models of the Earth would actually be very round and very smooth. Billiard balls, marbles, ping pong balls, and other smooth spheres are the best representation of the Earth's true appearance.

Posted By: wofahulicodoc Aagh!!! - 11/04/03 10:01 PM
Ever the prescriptivist, I wouldn't dare post a reference to a site that began "The Earth is not a perfect sphere. Due to it's rotation..."

And this is a Regents examination preparatory center, no less (though not affiliated with the NYS Board of Regents).

Copyright © 1999-2003 Oswego City School District Regents Exam Prep Center
...RegentsPrep and StudyZone are FREE educational resources.


I guess you get what you pay for.
Posted By: Wordwind Re: Aagh!!! - 11/05/03 12:00 AM
Good for you, Wof'!!!

So, do we take everything they write as being inaccurate because they weren't paying attention to their possessive case personal pronouns? (I am being absurd here, for the record.)

Posted By: Jackie Re: Aagh!!! - 11/05/03 02:15 AM
I saw that, wofa. [head-shaking e] Maybe he was indoctrinated by that Save the Apostrophe guy...

Posted By: Buffalo Shrdlu Re: Aagh!!! - 11/05/03 02:31 AM
I wouldn't dare post a reference

ow! ow! ok! hey, ok! ow! I've learned my lesson! ow! hey, stop with the noodle, awright?



Posted By: Capfka Re: Aagh, indeedy ... - 11/05/03 07:41 PM
Don't you know the difference between a noodle and a bus ticket yet? No wonder they stopped Concorde. You can take only so much pollution ...

Posted By: Jackie Re: Aagh, indeedy ... - 11/06/03 11:39 AM
Psst, CK--check Weekly Themes.

Posted By: wow Re: Samhain - 11/09/03 05:05 PM
Jeez! I leave for awhile and everything goes pear shaped!

Here's what I was taught in Catholic school:
All Hallows is an old way of saying All Saints
(Hallowed-Holy)
All Hallows Eve is the evening before All Saints Day on Nov. 1st - hence October 31st - All Hallows Eve - becomes Halloween.
Even OED agrees with me ... those clever devils!
As for The Day of the Dead - here's what I Googled:
The original celebration can be traced to the festivities held during the Aztec month of Miccailhuitontli, ritually presided by the goddess Mictecacihuatl ("Lady of the Dead"), and dedicated to children and the dead. The rituals during this month also featured a festivity dedicated to the major Aztec war deity, Huitzilopochtli ("Sinister Hummingbird"). In the Aztec calendar, this ritual fell roughly at the end of the Gregorian month of July and the beginning of August, but in the postconquest era it was moved by Spanish priests so that it coincided with the Christian holiday of All Hallows Eve (in Spanish: "Día de Todos Santos,") in a vain effort to transform this from a "profane" to a Christian celebration. The result is that Mexicans now celebrate the day of the dead during the first two days of November, rather than at the beginning of summer, but remember the dead they still do, and the modern festivity is characterized by the traditional Mexican blend of ancient aboriginal and introduced Christian features.
Generalizing broadly, the day's activities consist of visits by families to the graves of their close kin. At the gravesites family members engage in sprucing up the gravesite, decorating it with flowers, setting out and enjoying a picnic, and interacting socially with other family and community members who gather at the cemetary. Families remember the departed by telling stories about them. The meals prepared for these picnics are sumptuous, usually featuring meat dishes in spicy sauces, a special egg-batter bread, cookies, chocolate, and sugary confections in a variety of animal or skull shapes. Gravesites or family altars are profusely decorated with flowers (primarily large, bright flowers such as marigolds and crysanthemums), and adorned with religious amulets and (in smaller villages) with offerings of food, cigarettes and alcoholic beverages. Because of this warm social environment, the colorful setting, and the abundance of food, drink and good company this conmmemoration of the dead has pleasant overtones for most observers, in spite of the open fatalism exhibited by all participants, whose festive interaction with living and dead in an important social ritual is a way of recognizing the cycle of life and death that is human existance.

You can read the whole thing at http://
www.public.iastate.edu/~rjsalvad/scmfaq/muertos.html

Sounds like an exuberant version of our Memorial Day!



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