http://www.kangfull.com/board/tboard.php?board=question&key=&keyfield=&sort=&page=1&mode=view&no=65

The page cannot be displayed. Please tell us what saddens you, soojin.

I got to the page, but it was written in characters I don't know how to read.

Yes, what is the sorrow?

The English part is the large image. The address for that alone is here: http://kangfull.com/board/question_file/1039148725.jpg

Here is URL to BBC story about six months ago, about US tank accidentally
killing two girls.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/world/asia-pacific/2097137.stm

Forgive you soojin you have made an unfortunate error in the use of the english language. You refer to the accidental death of the two precious korean girls as "My" sorrow. That soojin would imply an exclusion of any sorrow from my heart and the heart of anyone else. Surely you know that many good people grieve at the tragedy of their deaths.

But yet I know that your grief is sincere and not political. Just as I know that the hearts of your countrymen felt sorrow over the death of my Uncle Jack T. Grider and 54,245 other americans who died fighting the communist invaders of your country in 1950-53.

Look north across the 38th parallel. See soojin; the largest prison camp in the world.

>...your grief is sincere and not political.

and yet one wonders, "why now?" and "why here?"

The now part:

The two military members were acquitted in their courts martial this past week.

There's a great deal of animosity in S. Korea about this, I understand, even though it was as the press indicated pretty much an accident. Regrettable, of course, but on the other hand, as was pointed out, we bled a lot for the South Koreans and their gratitude can be underwhelming at times.

I thnk part of the problem may well be that deep down inside the people below the 38th parallel understand that were it not for our 35,000 or so troops in the country they would have been at great risk of having been overrun some time in the last 50 years. It's only the presence of our military, whom the North Koreans will not annihilate because they know the true might behind them, that keeps the South relatively safe.

TEd

I think a major part of the problem is that we try these guys under US or military jurisdiction instead of trying them under local jurisdictions - as if we were an army of occupation.


k

Dear FF: would you care to have your son tried by a foreign court, where politics could
prevent his getting a fair trial? I have seen little suggestion that the driver of the U.S.
vehicle was driving under the influence of alcohol. And remember that the girls must not
have been paying attention, to be aware that they were in danger, and could easily have
avoided being hit.
Court martials may whitewash offences by officers, but they sure as hell do not whitewash
offences by EM.

Dear Bill,

Of course I would not like my kids being tried anywhere in which the laws were not applied justly - regardless of whether they were in the service. But, say a foreign citizen were charged with a crime in this country, and some other country insisted that we didn't have jurisdiction over alleged crimes - in our own country (e.g. the Sheinbein base).

OTOH, I guess I could see this if there is reciprocation. If a Korean soldier is accused in the U.S., is he then tried in ROK?

My point isn't necessarily that we should change things, btw, only that the status quo is bound to engender bad feelings.

It's very easy for even an adult soldier to make a mistake and get killed by a tank. (According to my dad who was a tanker, it used to happen all the time.) It's absurd, I think, to insinuate that the soldiers were necessarily doing anything wrong to cause the deaths. But without knowing the details it's also wrong for me to conclude that the girls could have or even should have known they were in any danger.


Addenda

I was thinking the girls were 5 years old, but I musta confused them with something else I was reading, because the article cited above refers to them as teenagers. Still, as I said, even an adult can mistakenly get a little too close to one of these things when it's moving.

It was a 'tank' with a mine-sweeper mounted on the chassis.

No idea what the actual details were in the case - would be nice if someone could track down what was discovered.

It's true that many will use any pretext whatever to criticize the US, but that that doesn't mean that all criticisms are wrong.

The Army said it accepts full responsibility for the tragedy. It would not seem fair to prosecute a soldier for carrying out a lawful order that happened to kill a civilian - even in the U.S. If they accept responsbility, I wonder if they are looking into changing policy - whether it's changing their own SOP or educating locals about the hazards of playing or walking too closely to one of these behemoths.

k

Dear FF. Quite so. I think that if Soojin knew facts suggesting significant negligence on the
part of the two soldiers he should have suppied them. At this point it seems likely that
a tragedy has been used for political purposes.

I found several stories about U.S. servicemen being accused of rape on Okinawa. In one of them
the suspect was turned over to Japanese authorities. I could not discover end result, though.
http://www.cnn.com/2001/WORLD/asiapcf/east/07/02/okinawa.rape/

All soojin did was to supply a link. He made no statement about what he believed happened or whether he thought the outcome of the case was justice or injustice. He also stated that he was sorrowful, but, again, he made no accusations or excuses.

I think that's a perfectly reasonable standpoint.

Loads of unfounded assumptions being made here, folks!

- Pfranz

Loads of unfounded assumptions being made here, folks.

I'd say these following statements in the link provided by soojin qualify as unjustified and unfounded assumptions.

>We were furious about killers who call it simply an accident.

We are furious about we ourselves who are unable to do anything to the killers.<

>"The two girls who lost their lives by the US Army--
US Army court in Korea pronounced the two killers not guilty..."<

Surely you see the tone of the link if you've read it, Pfranz, and so your "perfectly reasonable" must be that dose of gasoline you like to throw on the American-bashing fire in your usual inimitible way. And I think milum's response was fair, polite, and to the point. Of course the death of any child is a horrible tragedy, especially when it's sudden and accidental, and pains me to no end. But, Cap, I can't allow you to make a lark of two young men who were involved in one such horrible accident, and consent to their being made into evil killers just because they are Americans. All the facts and reports, even in the Asian press, amply state it was an accident...that the turret scout even tried to warn the driver but it was too late. To paint these young men as evil killers just because they are American soldiers is to say the same of the son of one of our dearest friends on this board, and I can't, and won't, allow that.

http://search.hankooki.com/search/search.api?US tank;times;http://times.hankooki.com/lpage/nation/200211/kt2002112518390610600.htm

http://search.hankooki.com/search/search.api?US tank;times;http://times.hankooki.com/lpage/nation/200212/kt2002120517081911990.htm
http://search.hankooki.com/search/search.api?US tank;times;http://times.hankooki.com/lpage/200212/kt2002120419094310440.htm
http://search.hankooki.com/search/search.api?US tank;times;http://times.hankooki.com/lpage/200212/kt2002120320184310230.htm
http://search.hankooki.com/search/search.api?US tank;times;http://times.hankooki.com/lpage/nation/200212/kt2002120216552211990.htm
http://search.hankooki.com/search/search.api?US tank;times;http://times.hankooki.com/lpage/nation/200211/kt2002112817080510510.htm
http://search.hankooki.com/search/search.api?US tank;times;http://times.hankooki.com/lpage/nation/200211/kt2002112710263711990.htm

This paragraph from the article link you just posted is insightful, soojin:

>Attorney Kim Hyun-soo of the USFK's Judge Advocate Division explains that the U.S. judicial system makes it more difficult to prove the charge of the accused than in Korea because of the U.S. law focusing on human rights protection and requiring prosecutors to prove the allegation "beyond reasonable doubts."<

...as well as the fact that you took the trouble to highlight every US and us wherever it appears in every word in every paragraph throughout the entire article in blood red!

...and also the fact that you didn't have the courtesy to respond to any of the posts here, and just put up another link.

(what say you to all this, Pfranz?)

soojin, as you already know, your presence is very welcome on the board, and I (and I'm sure all the others) look forward to many more linguistic and insightful exchanges with you...but perhaps you're too new to know that long ago, after our experiences in political discourse after the terrorist attacks on September 11th, we reached a consensus that postings for the sole purpose of any political agenda were not in harmony with the linguistic focus of the board. We have lapsed into such discourse a time or two, albeit in a much more civil and generic tone than in the past. But we try hard to avoid such discussions openly here. (however, you're welcome to query anyone about any topic in private).

I fear this thread is now on a track to opening old and new wounds among friends, and I suggest this would be a good point for it to cease...IMHO.

This will be my last post to this thread.

[Edit: gee, thanks for that fusillade of extra links, soojin...I won't be opening them]

I understand your unwillingness to continue the thread. The blood red appearanc of US in each of these articles is, of course, intended as you suggest. You haven't missed anything with the articles. None of them contains any information at all about waht caused the accident - how it came about.
For all we know at this point, they were playing chicken with the vehicle. (Not suggesting that's the case, only pointing out that the Korea Times articles are spectacularly uninformative.)

It seems very clear that the author(s) of these articles as well as the rioters are much more concerned about exacting blood than they are about determining what happened.


k

Well now soojin, are you so inept in the english language that you can't respond to a simple and direct question...

Are you saying that the two americans driving the tank ran over and killed the two young girls with deliberate intent?

If so, may God forgive your ignorance and bless your country.

Milo Washington.

http://www.korea.army.mil/pao/news/021105.htm

Here is a quote from above URL, stating court martial found no negligence or intent in the deaths.
"Ambassador Hubbard: Let me try to answer your first question, and then perhaps
General LaPorte can answer the second one. It is quite clear that U.S. soldiers operating a tank
during a combined exercise on a public road in Korea killed those two young girls. We take
responsibility for that. The question is, does that constitute a deliberate act
of murder? No, of course it didn’t. Did it constitute a negligent act? Well, the jury in this
military judicial proceeding concluded that, no, it wasn’t a negligent act. It was a terrible
accident, a tragic accident, but not one caused by intent or by negligence."

I now believe that this whole thread is motivated by political considerations, and is totally
inappropriate in AWADtalk.

We Koreans think that American soldiers are guilty.
But Americans say they are not guilty.
"Not guilty" is wrong.

If you soojin, speak for all South Koreans, then I fear for your Collective Sanity.

Milo Washington.

If this thread speaks for all of us, then I fear our collective humanity.

re: FF comment far above...But, say a foreign citizen were charged with a crime in this country, and some other country insisted that we didn't have jurisdiction over alleged crimes - in our own country

it happens all the time! from things as simple as a parking ticket, to hit and run, to DWI and even to murder. and these are just the cases i know about. NYC is home to the UN, and so it has a lot of foreign dignitaries who claim "diplomtic" immunity. or are whisked out of the country so fast it would make your head spin. and for the most part, we (the US government and the NYC police and press) keep it quiet. NYC every couple of years makes noise about "parking tickets"-- usually after an onerous crime... it is safe issue to make noise about. diplomatic parking is an issue. One diplomat parked blocking a hydrant. there was a fire, and in NYC (and other cities policies) the fire men just knocked out the windows and ran the hoses throught the car. the diplomat was pissed and wanted to sue the city for damages. so what a house was on fire, and lives were at stake.

the fact is, every one plays by the same set of rules. most diplomats are exempt from being prosocuted under US Law, even for crimes committed on US soil. (some have asked for and recieved political refugee status-- and "defected" to US. it easier to do 10 to 20 years in sing sing than back home. )

i have not read all of the thread about the details, and don't know the facts about this the case that started this thread. but i do know, US millitary and diplomates are entitled to be tried in US courts by US Law, just as foreign diplomates are entitled to be tried by their laws for crime they have committed in US. We (in NYC) honor the law. we expect other to honor the law too. in the end, things work out.

I haven't read the link - I couldn't open it and I rarely go back. I assumed the link was to a news story. No, I wasn't American bashing, but pointing out that soojin had not made a personal statement, just provided a link and said he was sorrowful.

After reading a couple of the new links, I can only come to the conclusion that you are right, and that he is making a statement.

I don't for a minute believe that the soldiers deliberately ran the girls over. However, although I agree with the principle of diplomatic immunity (having travelled on a dip passport for a couple of years), I don't necessarily believe that soldiers who are not directly attached to a diplomatic mission should have it. Having said that, I suspect that justice, in this case, would not have been done in South Korea, so it's just as well that the soldiers got their hearing in an American court.

- Pfranz

Fair enough, Cap. I could only assume you had read the initial link. I retract my assumptions about your post.

- WO'N

Just in case anybody doubts the validity of my saying elisted men do not ever get
whitewashed by courts-martial, read this article:
http://makeashorterlink.com/?G6AE236B2

this discussion is empty. it's other mentality, other people, other law. you wan't understand each other.

Calm down about the "blood" red, guys. That's just a function of the search capabilities of the website. It highlights every instance of what you search for, same as on this site.

Dear JazzO: Even without the color "killers" is inflammatory and offensive. It obviously
implies homicidal intent.

Most enlisted people are in a country under the conditions of the status of forces agreement (SOFA) that is negotiated between the US and the goverment of the host country.

SOFAs generally limit the host's right to try our military for crimes committed in that country in favor of the military tribunals which are a part of every military organization in the world.

The anger about the court decision is badly misdirected. If Soojin and others like her are that concerned about the way US soldiers are handled or not handled in the courts there, they need to work to have the SOFA changed. The US, in my opinion, would pull out of South Korea rather than allow for the very great possibility that its forces would be subject to the vagaries of a court system about which we know very little.

I got the opinion from some of the above that Korea may not have a true "innocent until proven guilty" court system. Anyone want to take their chances in a court where you have to prove you're not guilty rather than requiring the prosecution to prove guilt beyond a reasonable doubt? Any takers? Step right up, folks, show us how much you want the US to stay home and stop protecting the rest of the world.

We're waiting....

I've read one of the stories posted above and would like someone point out one in which there's a clear report of what happened--all the known circumstances. It sounds like an accident. I do wonder why were the girls in the road so close to a tank? Tanks are intimidating, and I cannot imagine walking close to one--they are loud and scary. It seems one's instincts would be to walk far away from a tank. But I don't know the circumstances here. Narrow street? Nowhere to run? Nowhere to hide?

And certainly the intent of the driver of the tank was not to kill. This was a tragic accident, and one in which hindsight turns out, again, to be the best guide.

Has anyone read whether any kind of reparation will be paid to the families of the girls who died?

I feel sorrow in considering how the families of the girls must feel, and I hope that they will come to forgive the man who drove the tank.

This is certainly a rare, freak accident, and I hope it will not cause our Korean friends to distrust us or to believe harm was intended.

Dear TEd: I wondered what clue you had picked up as to soojin's gender.
So I checked. On Thur Feb 28 soojin said he was a man.

So I checked. On Thur Feb 28 soojin said he was a man.

Thanks Bill, somehow the gender with whom we talk is more important in subtle ways than I have understood.

Example:

It is hard to compliment another male without an aside or an off-handed remark, least, I guess, we be mistook as being gay...

"Hey TEdie-o, I noticed that no one stepped up and accepted your challenge, this is strange, considering how bad we americans have been."

Example:

Hey Wordwind, I thought that your thoughts were well-measured and laudable. With wonderful people like you around, the world should not need people like me.
And Bill. And TEd. And Faldage. And tsuwm. And Whit. And WO'N And Jazzo. And Falliable. And dear Rhuby. And the Fish. And Musick. And Alex. And Wofadoc. And Maverick. And Capital Kiwi. And Inselpeter. And Belligerent Youth. And Stales. And Etoain. And Mahoony. And Cadafi. And of course, the two-fisted fast-drinking bear from Ireland - Hiya. And lasty, Johnny "Guitar" Watson. But for the time being...

Wordwind. We need serious chicks like you.

Milum, chopped liver I may be. But minced birdseed, never.

No AnnaStrophic you are not Birdseed. Birdseed is Birdseed. You are the good AuntieSkeptic and a terse biting asp. Once when I was young I asked someone if you were the good-side manifestation of a schizoid Faldage. Imagine. Today I know better. You are a bright concise wit and a nice person, more real electronically than most of the people who flesh out our off-screen lives. The only thing mince about you is the brevity of your words.

I love you, Milum.

Thank you very much for your earnest interests.
I want to end this forum.
Thank you.