Ditto to the above (not the "curmudgeon and new chicky post immediately above mine" but the posts talking about the time it takes.

I remember feeling exactly the same way when I joined. You don't always know what people are referring to but after you've been here for a while you'll be referring to stuff that new members won't know either. Such is life.

And believe it or not, when things are going well on Board, this happens so quickly. These are good people. Sit, talk, stay for a while - you are welcome.

Well said, everyone. This is the board I know and love.

IMHO tho, we should not be quite so quick to diss Lizzy’s idea of a “paddling pool” thread. Sure, it would be regrettable if anyone sought to overly manage the mixing of old lags and new prisoners – but there is no reason why we can’t take on board this concern voiced by a few newcomers, to add an *extra chance of newcomers successfully integrating into the group.

I am suggesting a thread governed by a house rule such as “Read but don’t post if experienced {x} or above”, and with a headline something along these lines: “Newcomer, wanting to post?” It could perhaps have a short para from Jackie to overtly welcome newcomers, inviting new posts and pointing out where to find additional information. Old Pharts could still greet newbies by pm, and try to help them find their way around without knocking over the furniture unduly, whilst also making them feel valued and respected as new members! I think the effect of this could be to aid the transition of some newcomers into confident membership of the group over time, by minimizing the concerns over tangling with a complex and exclusive-seeming metalanguage – and this (certainly hope I speak for all in this! ) is a highly desirable objective in the long-term life and vitality of the board. So thanks for the idea, Lizzy – I definitely think it’s worth its weight.

I am suggesting a thread governed by a house rule such as “Read but don’t post if experienced {x} or above”, and with a headline something along these lines: “Newcomer, wanting to post?”

Or we could petition Anu to make a new section of the board (he did it for Weekly Themes) called something like "Greetings" with the subtitle "New here? Make yourself known." It could possibly also become the home of the Birthday and Away for a while threads, where we post things concerning friendly dynamics. It would be similar to I&A, but not so formal.

Just a thought . . .

Ooh, I love all you people!! <GRIN>

Why Anu, JazzO? Why not petition that newly-minted demi-goddess, JAT (Jackie the Administratrix)? One thing's for sure, you'll at least get an answer, even if it's only a wet fish in the face! Get out your lederhosen, plusfours and solar topee and try!

a new section of the board (...) called something like "Greetings

Great refinement, Jazzo. See, when we put our heads together it doesn't have to result in bruises...

The single best strategy I tried when coming on board Sept. 30, 2001 (oh, little did I know...) was to begin going back through the archives and reading old threads, particularly the ones written at the inception of the board. What was interesting was how some there wrote with decidedly pretentious tones of voice that they have, since then, toned down. And, on the other hand, there was one member, who is still posting, who wrote with a sortof timid tone of voice, but who is now (and I will not name this person) a voice of great confidence and power. That was a terrific labor of love for me (searching the archives) and well worth the effort.

The second strategy that has helped a lot is contacting posters by PM to ask what the heck they're talking about. To a person, I always get clear answers and a decided willingness from them to let me know what's going on with jokes, references, you name it, that have been mentioned in a thread.

The third action, though not a strategy, that's been helpful has been when an experienced member has contacted me by PM to set me straight on something I'd assumed incorrectly that experience on the board would have steered me in a correct direction.

But we don't remember everything, do we? We all forget things that have been written. For instance, Bill, I don't think anyone ever answered you about what that calendar was called--regimental? Some kind of calendar that had been discussed way back when?

From one who's been out of the loop so long she just enjoys watching it spin around,
Wordwonderer

Thanks, tsuwm and CapK for your words of wisdom. Also to ewein and mav for their suggestion and development, respectively, of the idea of a "safe area" for new entrants.

At first glance I, too, thought, "What a good idea." But I also see questions that need to be asked. The "regulation" (ugh!) of such an area would have to be self-imposed, as has everything else been, on this board. That being so, is there not a risk that some people will splash around in the shallow end for ever, never "graduating?"

Does this matter?

Is the idea of "graduation" frightening to some people? More frightening than coming in with the big* boys and girls?

How do we stop board members from posting in the reception area, even though they are "long-time graduates?"

Would the provision of two separate "areas" cause just the sort of division that we have steadfastly worked repudiated these past two years?

I am not against the idea, and certainly all in favour of the intention behind it - but these are my thoughts.

*(These analogies are not intended to be offensive - I've just realised that some might read them so: please accept my assurances that they are meant purely as illumination, not as derogatory comment!)

> two separate "areas" cause [..] division

I doubt that will happen. With Jackie's support [holding hand e] I think everyone will stumble into I&A pretty quickly. I agree with Jazzo too - the newbies deserve their own rubric.

Our magisterium?
'Honourable disagreement' should be in there someone, right?
I think all members should have a right to govern themselves here according to their own will. But individuals must be obliged to subordinate their will to the reason of the majority. And if, believing oneself above this, one then attempts to govern others, one thus enslaves oneself and the Board as a whole.


sdt@rousseau.fr

Thank you, tsuwm, for starting a thread which demonstrates to one and all what AWADTalk was like and is supposed to be like. And, I am confident, will continue to be like once we get over the current unpleasantness and sort out a few things.

A few quick observations, which is all I have time for in a busy period.

ewein, the "titles" which we have don't mean diddly-squat. Anu can't change or get rid of them, for reasons I don't understand, but it's a fact they are built into the structure of the site and can't be changed. We all discovered this a long time ago and many jokes have been made about them. Don't be insulted by what you may (for the moment) be called -- it won't last long, if you write posts.

The suggestions and improved suggestions for a thread or area for new members has merit, but let's all take note of slithytove's plea -- there is much behind it, which has been alluded to and I think we are aware of it.

Lastly, let's remember that this is a site which some of us treasure more than lots of people would believe. For at least one of our members it's a window to a world greatly circumscribed by physical limitations, and I suspect there are others that we have never heard from because they don't post.

In short, I don't believe there are any of the sometimes-maligned old timers group who is not willing, nay eager, to extend a welcoming hand to a new member. We all, old and new, comprise a most honourable company, and the more the merrier. But (here come the caution) the company can't be maintained the way we have come to love it without some self-restraint and organizational guidelines which we have worked out, slowly and carefully, over time and for which there are suggestions which have been duly noted in this discussion. Some new members think these aren't necessary, but, as has been demonstrated lately, a company without some self-discipline and self-regulation becomes a mob. 'nuff said.

- and thank you, Byb, for an exposition of what we are, what are our aspirations and how we should conduct ourselves.
I don't believe it can be bettered.

separating the "newbies"

A suggested mechanism for this idea (if possible with a technical approach; I wouldn't expect voluntary guidelines to work):

A) Limit posting to the forum to those who have not yet attained some predetermined level, say member.

2) Anyone who may post to that forum may also post anywhere else.

Þ) Anyone who is still uncomfortable posting outside that forum after attaining member level would probably not make it on this board anyway.

The problem with a separate Q&A section for newer members is that you still presuppose that they know what the rules are and still instill a mild sense of hierarchy. We can't really say, you're new, so you should probably post here. Every new person is totally different, some may be absolute computer wizzes and others might be language experts who don't know how to turn on the computer. Plus, you might end up with a sub-community of people who simply become comfortable with only staying in that area. The purported intent of this would be to have people ask questions that have already been discussed in depth before, but how are they to know what's been discussed already and which section they should put their question in? You end up with the possibility of a very interesting topic that hasn't been discussed elsewhere being confined to that "newbie" area. And if access is restricted to just newer members, then they miss out on the contributions of older members, and older members don't get the pleasure of participating.

So far, new members have, if they are indeed interesting in participating, assimilated well. I'm just proposing a simple informal community section where everyone can "see and be seen."

I rather doubt that Jackie has the ability to create a new section, but she obviously has that crucial connection. What do you think, J?

I think all members should have a right to govern themselves here according to their own will. But individuals must be obliged to subordinate their will to the reason of the majority. And if, believing oneself above this, one then attempts to govern others, one thus enslaves oneself and the Board as a whole.

holy cow, chris... that was absolutely brilliant. could well be the motto of the board (albeit a long one!) perhaps we could convince someone (hi, faldage!)(and wherefor[sp?] art thou, beloved Scribbler?) to translate it to latin?

A thanks to all for the very refreshing discussion here! The mention of a newbie's area does, I'll admit, bring a twinkle to my eye, because there is that period of shyness mentioned by myself, and many others along way, due to the Intimidation Factor. I know it took me at least a month or two of reading along before I summoned the courage to even attempt a post (and another couple of months before I felt confident enough to start posting regularly), and we've heard like stories from many others. And, so, I suspect there are still many who endlessly wallow in the the limbo of this Intimidation Factor, not because they're content with being a read-along "Lurker", but because they can never get up the nerve to join in next to many of the super-intellects that appear here (pros such as tsuwm, NicholasW, Bingley, and others...from whom I've gratefully learned volumes about the world of linguistics, thanks! ); or they don't know how to break into the friendly frivolity of such a high-pitched intellectual discourse.
Still others may follow along in this Intimidation Period for months, and then just disappear altogether, frustrated they can't find a spot, or get up the courage, to make their break into the stream of things. So I suspect we lose a lot of potential contributors in this manner. Because, unless you open a private dialogue with someone (which you probably won't do unless you start posting), there's no way of knowing that all levels of input are welcome here, and that everybody adds something to the discussion in their own way. By just reading along, unless you're a dedicated "Lurker", you tend to focus on the more cerebral aspects of the threads, at least I did, and talk yourself out of ever having the dexterity to enter into these conversations. Of course, a few days' perusal of Wordplay & Fun would certainly soften anyone's uncomfortability! But I came here for the words after susbscribing to the Daily Word...so I went right to Q & A, Misc., and other word discussions like "Eponyms". I'm not sure a new members area is the answer, but it, or something akin to it, to help channel and ease folks through this initial Intimidation Factor is, I think, an idea whose time has come!

The Only WO'N!

(just peeking in)

On the other hand, if this place is not challenging enough, go here:

http://www.vocabula.com/


hi, hev!

well, if I may, I'd like to jump back in here and refocus my thinking by looking at some of the commentary:

regarding the magisterium: I mentioned that it was a "loaded" term. well, besides the (unwanted) RC connotations of the "teaching" sense that I wanted, and the possible conflation with majesty; the other sense of the word is from Alchemy: the philosopher's stone. I'm still thinking about how that could be applied.

once again *we are dominating the discussion. where are the new guys* to tell us what they think? are we just kidding ourselves with a lot of logorrhea?

that was absolutely brilliant...

oh dear. (must be temperate..) not for nothing was that post signed rousseau.fr, I'd say. think "Social Contract".. think French Revolution.. read Locke also.. take two political discussion boards and call us in the morning.

chris, I guess I'm thinking of rational discussion, and disagreement, to be part of teaching -- perhaps we'd be better served to recast this "ideal" in terms of learning, but that term is being so overused currently in the business world; a person can't even get training any more!

*used generically -- it sounds friendlier to me than newbies. if you have an issue with my use of it in a genderless fashion, please take it to miscellany. {aside to musick: note differentiation in placement of *s in the above }

p.s. - thanks everyone of you for your contributions

I am neither a newbie, nor do I think I have the time/talent to ever become an old hand. I would be sorry to see a newbie forum, I don't think it would serve the board well. In theory and in practice I'm afraid it would turn out to be two very separate things.

I come here to rub shoulders with the big boys. I come here for the teaching, the wisdom, the learning. If I didn't feel welcome I wouldn't come.

tsuwm says where are the new guys* to tell us what they think? .

I was going to keep out of this, it is too easy to offend, but if I don’t say my piece and things change I can only blame myself, that’s democracy! So….....
I spent some time looking at threads before choosing to join in, and yes that included some of the unpleasantness that I decided was nothing to do with me and consequently not for me to get involved with. Putting that particular interaction on one side, reading the threads gave me an insight into the way the community worked and related and I liked it. I believe that both old and new are sufficiently tolerant and well intentioned to get along OK. The more experienced hands realise that we more recent arrivals are not going to have time to become familiar with or search for possible previous old threads, (Helen of Troy guided me so gently, so nicely, when I first posted), and if they don't feel a particular theme is worth revisiting they generally leave it to the newer guys to get into if they wish - if no one wishes then it dies. A kind of natural selection.

Rhubarb Commando says Would the provision of two separate "areas" cause just the sort of division ....... I believe that is just what could happen; the danger is that eventually you could develop two mature forae, one attended by todays longstanding contributors and the other for the rest. Life’s infinite variety comes from mixing and mingling, that is healthy and I love it. I agree with ladymoon, I would not vote for a separate learner’s pool.

dxb.

Oh. I just became a journeyman - I was a Newbie when I wrote the above.

dxb

I definitely vote against two separate pools. Besides, it's interesting to see how the old ones treat the newly arrived ones--and to see the generosity of spirit suppled when the old ones provide a link to previously discussed topics.

It might be good to have a place where the newly arrived could discuss questions that probably only relate to them (and oldies who haven't learned everything), such as now to navigate the search function, problems encountered when trying to paste a url, and other concerns. The oldies could peek in if that's what they wanted to do to offer a guiding hand...or could peek in to hear the voices there of new posters. But everybody would post on the regular forums. (It ain't forae, fori or somethin' like that, is it?)

But we sure as heck need some kind of consensus, I believe, that PMs are to be honored as Private Messages and cannot be posted publically on the board without explicit consent of the sender. Otherwise, the "private" in PM is meaningless and counts for nothing...and, if a potentially pulic message, perhaps we ought to rename it the PPM: Potentially Public Message. This is just a suggestion and I hope not to be taken as a criticism--just a direction that I think would be beneficial to everybody here.

Best regards,
WW

Sorry I made the suggestion
You needn't be, my dear. We need new ideas all the time. Some fly, some don't. If they don't, that doesn't necessarily mean they were bad ideas--just not right for this time or place.

I definitely vote against two separate pools.

So do I. What I was imagining, picking up on ewein's idea, was a single thread that would provide a starting point for new contributors, and that contribution there would not in any way militate against a newcomer posting wherever else they felt comfortable doing so.

The essential feature that I saw in this was to provide an obvious focus for newcomers to build early experience without too much perceived pressure from long-established contributors. This still seems to me a worthwhile additional feature, since it would not detract from the existing pattern but merely augment it.


edit: hah! ewein, in the meantime you've said it more succinctly than I did anyway =)

And I, too, Ewein, can see how a place for newcomers could be helpful as long as everybody knew that, if they wanted to post anywhere, their posts would be welcome. The more the merrier--that kind of spirit. But, still, it would be good to have some kind of place where newcomers could express questions about how the board is run, try to fathom the terminology and inside language, and so on. When I first came on board, I had my hand slapped (gently) many a time--still do in fact! Ha!

Best regards,
WW

...about this language that we profess to love.



If a professional professes something, what does an amateur do to the same something? [/quote]

I remember getting terribly confused when I first started reading Pilgrim's Progress by Bunyan's use of the word professor to mean not a teacher but one who professes (i.e., gives only lip service) so that his scorn was directed at hypocrites rather than academia.



Bingley