I am writing this while trying to see through eyes that are blurred by tears. I just got word from someone whose posts have been extremely enlightening, and whom I admire a great deal, that he has decided to leave the board, due entirely to the undertone of ugliness that has been running through it of late. It had crossed my mind to make this plea anyway, and this message cemented my decision.
Please, please, could the posts containing bitterness and ugliness stop? I have quite enough of that going on in my real life right now, and to see it here, where I have always found so much joy, is...dismaying, to say the least.
I do know that life is not all sweetness and light: I was a Child Protective Services worker for 15 years. But this board has been such a refuge for me and for some others;
I fervently hope that it will continue to be that. I really don't want to come here with dread, wondering if I'm going to find yet another instance of somebody being awful to somebody else. Thank you.
Well, I don't yet know the identity of this person, but I regret that we would lose any person or wisdom due to what I see as something minor.
Jackie, it's obvious that I'm not as perceptive as you are in discerning attitudes or emotions, but I haven't noticed any major problems. All that's really happened that I can see as a cause for dissent is the rather vocal and opinionated dissagreements on what constitutes an interesting thread. This didn't seem particularly unusual to me, though, because we've had many in depth discussions about how to fix perceived problems, from YARTing to the amount of posts we have. Thomas Jefferson said that "a little rebellion now and then is a good thing" and that can be likened to many or our discussions like this. Someone brings up a problem, we discuss it, we voice our varied opinions and eventually we dismiss it as futile to settle, but we feel a little better in that it was discussed and we're aware that our behavior needs a little tweaking.
Some ambiguous or a little too harsh opinions may have been voiced recently, but I seriously doubt that anyone here has a true animosity toward anyone else such that he/she would want to defame another person. Dare I suggest that some of this might be due to the decision to lighten up on the use of emoticons that previously gave a clearer picture of when a person was merely jesting? Perhaps there has been some misunderstanding, but bitterness and ugliness, I doubt it, or at least I don't see it as that.
I'm sad to see someone leave us because of a problem in communication, but communication is really all we have here, isn't it?
Brandon is the person who has left, and he just sent me the following correction:
"...please understand that the ill feelings of late are not the primary reason for me leaving, though it did add to the flame. Imagine, if you will, that each post that enlightens and invigorates the mind contains a lumen. The recent posting on Time was certainly a 50,000 lumen thread. And it is threads like those that have kept me in AWADtalk so long.
Unfortunately, I'm using more lumens lately to keep my monitor going than I'm getting from AWADtalk. The ratio of lumens is being far outnumbered by posts of darker colors. Yes, some of those posts have been ugly, but the inside nature of many of the jokes and the irrelevance (to language, at least) of so many posts make the lumens I do find not worth the time I must invest scrolling through posts. In a typical day, I think, we'll have 100 or 200 posts to go through. I only find 10 or so enlightening. I do find the other 190 entertaining, but when forced to make a decision, I'll entertain my baby boy instead.
Again, this is all public information if you'd like to share with others. And thanks for doing so.
I'm using more lumens lately to keep my monitor going than I'm getting from AWADtalk. The ratio of lumens is being far outnumbered by posts of darker colors.
Heavens! Are we becoming -- heaven forefend -- *parochial?
It seems likely that - over time - people will grow and change and so find new interests and there is a whole world of information on the Net some of which is even accurate!
So folks will come and go ... I am reminded of lovely Shoshonna from Israel who had to leave us as the tourist season began and her work increased ... I am glad she is busy but sorry not to have her with us . And there are many others like her.
Guess the Pooh-Bahs will just have to bear up and be anchors for this Great Experiment by Anu (bless him) and try to steer a steady course as folks come aBoard and then debark.
So, dear Brandon, wherever your voyage takes you :
Bon Voyage!
The board has become a community. Communities may have a common interest - language in our case - but they also have other concerns which get aired from time to time, or often all the time. Since so many of us spent a lot of our spare time here, the chances of all posts being purely language related are virtually nil. Here, I think I am fully supported by any even superficial analysis of the posts.
I was concerned when I saw Jackie's statement that there was an "undertone of ugliness" on the Board. I have seen people peeved, I have been berated by peeved people, but I have never seen anything which was not,
au fond, meant well within its own context. I cannot accept that there is a core of "ugliness" in this forum, because I have seen no evidence to support the allegation.
Having said that, there are nearly 3,000 posts in Q&A which I am reserving for when I have more time, hopefully very soon. They could be ugly, but only if Faldage and AnnaS have fiddled with them behind my back.
Brandon, good luck in whatever you do.
I very much hope that I have not been guilty of creating any of the "ugliness" that Brandon cited. I have been guilty of ribaldry, but not, it seemed to me, disproportionately more than my fellow culprits. If the ugliness referred to means potentially hurtful remarks, I have seen only a few unintentional ones, and when I did I spoke up about it, to the point of being teased about it. Faldage and I had a few bits of verbal rough and tumble, but none of it was meant to hurt, and in his PMs to me, he joked about it. So I don't know what ugliness Brandon was referring to. We all would welcome more erudition, but from whom can we recruit it?
Dearest Dr. Bill--
It was I, not Brandon, who alleged the "ugliness". A little of that came from the rants about going off-topic, but only a little. We have had similar rants before, and worked through them.
It's been kind of interesting, since I made that post: I've heard from about the same number of men and women, and all of the women say they have also been concerned, and all of the men said, "What on earth are you talking about?"!
Though one of the guys suggested that the think black bar across the top could be having a subliminal influence on us.
Now--I freely admit total subjectivity in using the word
ugliness, and perhaps I'm a little hypersensitive right now anyway, but: there have been posts that mention things that to me are crude and in very bad taste; I guess the one about those military men that let that guy go out of the plane, while knowing that he was going to die just pushed me over the edge. I know that a lot worse things have happened, but to read about something that awful, here--here, my place of refuge, joy, and laughter--
just...just...oh, I don't want the joy ruined, I don't...
I have been guilty of ribaldry, but not, it seemed to me, disproportionately more than my fellow culprits
*ahem*
I might liken us to a group of people who met at a series of wine tastings given by some restaurant. Initially the topic of conversation amongst the people at the wine tastings would most likely be exclusively about wine, but as the people got to know each other after several meetings more and more other common interests would begin to become topics of conversation. Everyone would be there for the wine and some people would have interests not shared by the entire body of the community, but I feel it would be unrealistic to expect that the topics of discussion would have to be limited entirely to wine, particularly if the wine tastings were the only place that these people met.
Certainly we have opportunities to meet one on one outside the confines of this board. This one in particular met another one on this board with whom he has had many very satisfying meetings, but we should not deny the possibility of group meetings of friends from this board. The PM system would have to be completely revamped to allow this and too many of us do not consider the Chat Room solution to be in any way workable. We can try to keep Subject Lines up to date, but even that is not entirely satisfactory for those of us with severely limited bandwidth. Waiting for a long thread to load can be deadly. All we have is the board itself. Maybe what we need is to convince Anu to let us have explicitly non-linguistic forums. We could have politics, religion, sports, drama, entertainment, books, whatever.
much good sense, of course, Faldage. But, er, you think everyone would post under the appropriate headings even in your ideal enactment?
LMAO!
post under the appropriate headings?
Well, no, but what else is new?
Mav ers:
you think everyone would post under the appropriate headings even in your ideal enactment?Sure! Hasn't 'Animal Safari' been a fine example of forums used appropriately?
yeahbut. It took archie to bravely lead us there
If the mediocre is enemy of the good and the perfect is enemy of the good...
so that's where I bin goin wrong, I wuz lookin fer the enema of my enemy
the enema of my enemy
Keerful thar good buddy, have you up on a charge of impersonatin a Dr.
Dear Mav: It is more blessed to give than to receive. Your enemy's administration of the warm soapsuds to you would be good for his soul.
Maybe what we need is to convince Anu to let us have explicitly non-linguistic forums. We could have politics, religion, sports, drama, entertainment, books, whatever.
It wouldn't even require a software modification.
We could simply decide to hijack some moribund, little-used category of the main index (such as "Loanwords from German" or "AWAD in Schools"), and use it instead for the sort of forums Faldage suggests.
"Loanwords from German" Yeah, that'd be a good place for discussions of a scatological nature.
Only problem with Loanwords from German is that it's impossible to post there.
>>Yeah, that'd be a good place for discussions of a scatological nature.
>Only problem with Loanwords from German is that it's impossible to post there.
Sorry. I posted before I read yours, tsuwm.
We could simply decide to hijack some moribund, little-used category of the main index (such as "Loanwords from German" or "AWAD in Schools"), and use it.
Only problem with Loanwords from German is that it's impossible to post there
Could that category be made accessible, or could another category be used (if the concept is deemed desirable)?
In other words: are you noting an insuperable objection, or merely a correctable detail?
Guess the Pooh-Bahs will just have to bear up and be anchors for this Great Experiment by Anu (bless him) and try to steer a steady course as folks come aBoard and then debark.
I don't presume that, for one moment, you speak for them all. This 'ugliness' (and I think Jackie picked her word adequately) caused a lot of people to leave very early on - well before anyone had even reached addict status - remember Philip Chambers, anyone? It was also the reason I left a year ago. Things could have improved with time, indeed they should have - which is why I came back. But there are a number of individuals who see the forum as 'their' territory and are pedantic in their nature and not too fussed about seeing newer members develop or even staying - despite your enthusiastic welcomes when they arrive.
Most of you are intelligent, wise and entertaining and the world community is better off with you. I kow-tow to your perserverance, knowledge and sheer good humour. You are what makes the AWAD forum great.
However, if numbers amongst you insist on making this a discussion group for the ultra-supreme-high brows then you are killing off those who legitimately want to get on and learn what you do. Not all of us have the privilege of spending our days with words. God bless those who can. I wish I could.
As for me - it's a classic case of once bitten, twice shy I haven't been the subject of a mauling this time but it's only a matter of time before someone decides to take me down-to-size again.
I'm off and this time I won't be back. Will you mourn for me too, wow? I wonder then again I think not. A 'tut, tut', a roll of the eyes and a 'plenty more where he came from' is all I'll get, I'll wager. You'll always have your Pooh-bahs to keep you company.
What is a Pooh-bah anyway? It's a measurement of the number of posts you've submitted - not a measure of your grandness or supposed intellect. A large number of those posts seem to consist of only one word. Had I consorted to that cheap trick I'd be up there after a week of the forum going live. Live in your ivory towers. I'm going back to a real world.
Will you mourn for me too, wow? I wonder then again I think not. A 'tut, tut', a roll of the eyes and a 'plenty more where he came from' is all I'll get, I'll wager. You'll always have your Pooh-bahs to keep you company.
What is a Pooh-bah anyway? It's a measurement of the number of posts you've submitted - not a measure of your grandness or supposed intellect.
If this is the impression I have given I apologize to you all.
I am well aware my intellect is not anywhere near the heights of most others on the board. My number of posts is because I am retired and have the time to read and post, nothing else.
My reference that the Pooh-Bahs will just have to bear up and be anchors for this Great Experiment by Anu (bless him) and try to steer a steady course as folks come aBoard and then debark was obvoiusly badly worded ... it was meant as tongue-in-cheek and pin-in-stuffed-shirt directed at myself
My sincere regret for any offenses given or taken.
wow
A diversity, such as the world of different understandings here, that is being assimilated within the confines of one subject (words)
has to be misunderstood by "x" number of people. I believe, as CapK stated, I dont see evidence of ugliness... but a lot of things that can be understood as "ugly", and it is an individuals responsibility to make sure they are understood
if that is evidenced. Of course this is easier said than done... but if the intent was to be misunderstood or to not care, we would
all probably go somewhere else.
The last 2 individual "complaints", although citing a host of different factors, seemed to be referring to an "ugliness" that, taken on surface, was just that..."on surface". It must have (from what I can tell) been a "history lesson" for them since I see nothing of the sort as of late.
As long as things are progressing and this board keeps proving to me that change is inevitable (except keeping advertisements out of the picture
)... and I know someday I'll have a chance to clarify who
is the better pool player... I'm staying!
The last 2 individual "complaints" seemed to be referring to an "ugliness" that, taken on surface, was just that..."on surface". It must have been a "history lesson" for them since I see nothing of the sort as of late.
---------------------------------------
Unfortunately, musick, the issue is not merely historical: it remains current. As an example I verbatim (but without attribution) a PM I received five days ago:
I truly believe you need to take as much time as you do posting to read through the old posts, out of respect for those that enjoy this place as a discussion board, not a chatb room (that would indeed include myself).
I darn near walked away from this board upon receiving that PM -- and in my judgment, most relatively-new users would have walked.
But here is the challenge: the easy courses are either to deny this, or to bemoan it -- but neither does the least bit of good. What are we going to do about it?
Rubrick, I doubt you will see this, but I'm responding anyway.
But there are a number of individuals who see the forum as 'their' territory and are pedantic in their nature and not too fussed about seeing newer members develop or even staying - despite your enthusiastic welcomes when they arrive.
My dear--everyone makes choices in the kind of people they choose to be around. An open forum on the internet pretty much removes that choice of whom to "invite" in to one's inner circle. That means that for me, at least, there will be some people here that I take more delight in than others.
I for one choose not to remain enthusiastic to those whose posts I don't care for. (Quick disclaimer--it has pretty much become impossible to consistently acknowledge everyone.
Please do not assume that I want you to go away if you haven't heard from me!) You, dearest Rubrick, have exercised your right to choose, by dropping the lot of us.
And that is to our detriment. You are wonderfully talented,
and I have learned a great deal from you.
However, if numbers amongst you insist on making this a discussion group for the ultra-supreme-high brows Dear One, I am wondering how thoroughly you checked recent posts before making that statement. There are many, many non-high-brow posts, paarticularly in Wordplay & Fun, and Miscellany.
it's only a matter of time before someone decides to take me down-to-size again.
Yes, that's possible. Given the number of members here, it seems logical that eventually you'll say something that somebody will get upset about. But, "there is nothing that can happen to a person that is as important as how he reacts to it". Each of us can choose to stay and try to work through our differences, and/or leave.
Will you mourn for me too, wow? I wonder then again I think not. A 'tut, tut', a roll of the eyes and a 'plenty more where he came from' is all I'll get, I'll wager. You'll always have your Pooh-bahs to keep you company.I don't think I have ever said this on the board before, but Honey, that was completely unfair. Again I am wondering how many threads you read before making this post.
Just reading a few of her posts would inform most people that she is sweet, caring, and very concerned not to tread on toes or intrude where she's not wanted. I have had a fair amount of correspondence with her, and I have never seen her evince the attitude you portray her as having.
Nor anyone else here, for that matter.
It's a measurement of the number of posts you've submitted - not a measure of your grandness or supposed intellect.
This we know, Dear.
Had I consorted to that cheap trick I'd be up there after a week of the forum going live. Live in your ivory towers.
I think you may have over-estimated the importance of "rank" to most of us.
I'm going back to a real world.
I shall miss you being here. Love.
WARNING! RANT AND LONG SUGGESTION
Skip over if you don't want to be bothered.
I am truly appalled, Keiva, at the PM you received. One would suppose that it came from one of the long-standing members who has posted a great deal, maybe even a pooh-bah or close to it. If that is indeed the case, then he/she has lost touch with reality and really ought to get a life. Firstly, without the least intention of negative criticism, I have noted that most of those who are pooh-bahs or close to it have indulged in innumerable short postings which really consist of chat, or jokes, or ripostes, etc., not anything of substance; this is how you get to be a pooh-bah. And that's OK with me. But I hope no one who indulges in this kind of posting is wacko enough to criticise someone else for making the board more of a chatroom than a discussion arena. Secondly, the notion that anyone should read through the old posts is lunatic. I just counted them. There are at this moment a total of 37,985 posts listed on the main page, not counting old weekly ones. Does anyone expect a newcomer to pay his/her dues by dredging thru all those (85% of which have no real content anyway) while trying to keep up with the 100+ new ones which come on daily?
Since there seems to be at least one person, and maybe more, trying to impose some kind of rules or discipline on newcomers, and sometimes on established members as well, and doing a poor job of communicating his/her concerns, maybe we need to try to establish some basic principles of proper AWAB behavior for everyone, from pooh-bahs on down, to follow. I suggest these for a start:
1. Everyone is welcome here, whether they are really expert in the English language or struggling with it.
2. Every member has an obligation to make newcomers welcome and to assist them if they ask for help on a linguistic point. We have a special obligation to assist young people and those who speak English as a second language.
3. Fresh members and fresh ideas and viewpoints are not only welcome, but necessary if we are not to become a snooty inbred clique. Nothing is expected of new members except a desire to ask a question, or to join in on our discussions and cyberlife to whatever extent they may want or be able to, observing the common rules of courtesy and responsible conduct.
4. Except for Anu Garg, our esteemed founder, we have no officers, no one with any authority over other members. The titles we bear confer no special status and are linked only to the number of times we have posted, which is mostly a matter of simple longevity and ample leisure time. No one is expected to show any deference to any other member simply on the basis of his/her title. Those who are worthy of some degree of respect and deference due to their demonstrated knowledge and wisdom reveal themselves to anyone who sticks around for very long.
5. Our interests and discussions are wide and far ranging. There are categories for postings to be placed in, and we will try to make use of them, but there is some overlap and some subjects do not fit well in the categories, so there should be no criticism of anyone's choice of category.
6. We do not expect or desire to entertain discussions of religion, politics, ethical or moral questions as such. This is not the place for proselytizing, preaching, or trying to argue partisan positions. But quotations or references from scriptural, religious, political etc. sources are acceptable as literature or to illustrate a point in a discussion.
7. Given the number of posts which have built up (due to the popularity of this board), no one can be expected to search thru all, or many of them. It is therefore to be expected that new members will ask questions that have been asked before, or initiate a subject which has been discussed before (what old timers call a YART). It may be useful to gently and politely let that person know that this is covered in old postings, and advise how to find them; but this is only as a matter of helping them out, not to criticise them for doing something heinous.
8. Language which is not suitable for everyone will from time to time be used. We are not prudish and do not attempt to censor anyone. However, all should bear in mind that we have members who do not appreciate scatological language and we also have members (and highly valued ones) who are 14 or even 10 years old.
9. A member, or newcomer, can make him/herself unwelcome by engaging in unnecessary bad language, rudeness to other members, getting personal in debate, introducing subjects not the purview of this board, or, in general, violating the rules of civilized discourse which ladies and gentlemen are expected to observe. We have no way of expelling anyone who becomes unwelcome; the only thing we can do is to admonish such a person, which must be done with the greatest caution and all possible good will, and only in a private message. If unwelcome conduct continues, we can only ignore the offender.
10. We do not tolerate plagiarism. An idea or expression not one's own should be identified by author and source, if known.
I'd like to comment on a couple of things that two of our... experienced persons* (whom I respect very much) have posted in this thread.
CK: The board has become a community. Communities may have a common interest - language in our case - but they also have other concerns which get aired from time to time, or often all the time.
sometimes the board seems more like a family. some linguaphiles seem not to like each other, just the way a lot of family members don't get along. they like different topics or they have different philosophies about language. and some of us just rub each other the wrong way. you can sometimes feel a certain tension between people, as if they were about to make each other break out in hives. this little microcosm of the world has the intimacy of a family and the squabbles of a family. perhaps the biggest puzzle with a body of individuals such as this is how to maintain the community but remain individuals. without meaning to come across as too parochial, I would also draw a parallel to the US notion (illogical, but optimistic) that you can create a society of individuals in which every man is king.
max: I will continue to try and keep up, hoping for the old spark to be lit once more.
perhaps this is unrealistic. perhaps, as with many things, the bloom inevitably wears off. but rather than relighting the spark, we may, perhaps, be able to bank the warm glow of the yet undying embers.
*I wracked my brain trying to arrive at a neutral-sounding word for this, rejecting veteran, old-timer, pooh-bah (of course), old hand, longtimer, seadog, warhorse, etc.
I almost didn't come back to this thread. Then I realised it had been very busy and began to read from my last post.
I'm a veteran, and I think I'm about 100 posts off being a Pooh-Bah. Haven't checked, because I don't really care. As, I hope, most of you will realise, the board is a community to me, as it is to many others. Not the only one I live in, but one which has given me a great deal of pleasure over the past ten months. The number of posts is interesting in a mild sort of way, but as has been pointed out above, conveys nothing except the individual's endurance. The real rankings on the board are intellectual and are conferred by other members out of respect, not by the Board software based on a given number of posts.
For those who are new and unaware, I have been travelling in the States recently and have met a number of members of this forum. Without exception, you were nice and generous people, and I enjoyed meeting you immensely. The thing that astonished me was how like your board personas most of you are. I think that most of us who have met others from the board feel pretty much the same way. And I think that I can generalise from the sample I have met and say that this will be the norm. I can't see any reason to come on to the Board and pretend to be someone you're not.
There has recently been a reasonably large number of new people joining the Board and actually posting. I see this as nothing but good. That's what the forum is for. I've often wondered where the rest of the 2,600 people who have signed up are. Some are attracted in the first instance by language but become more interested in the chit-chat. Others only post on language topics. Nothing wrong with that in my opinion.
As several posts above this one have pointed out, the Board is different things to different people. Some people are only mildly interested in language, but are very much interested in other people. I need hardly point out Ithaca, New York, to the old-timers as an example of what can happen!
At the moment I have severely restricted (by my standards) access to the Internet. Therefore, I have not even opened the Q&A folder for three months, and there are 3,000 posts there which I am going to have to face up to sooner or later. Every time I come to AWADtalk I look at the url longingly, but have to move on - I&A, Wordplay and Miscellany are all I can manage. Those who don't know me may well believe that CapK is a lightweight not interested in language. The truth is that CapK is a lightweight who IS interested in language but who is short of time.
The point of this, yes. Okay, if people who have been on the Board for a fair while don't like what some of the newer members have to say, do what I do and ignore those posts. This, I might add, is something I don't do very often. Don't criticise them personally on the Board or slag them off in PMs.
And remember, expression and emotion in writing is not necessarily interpreted the way that face-to-face communication is. Be careful. Because I'm inclined to believe that most of the supposed negativity that occurs is actually just a failure of communication. I've been astounded from time-to-time by how what I've written has been picked up by its recipients! But it's MY fault, not theirs!
Enough, already.
Capital Kiwi
I almost didn't come back to this thread.
When Jackie posted her now history-making thread, I felt just as sad as she was about Brandon leaving the board. Subsequent posts to the thread made me think about this board more and what it means to me. I realized that discovering it serendipitously is one of the best things that ever happenend to me since I bought my very first computer. I would never have met people with such intellectual attributes so rich, you feel like you hit the jackpot (if you are wordcrazy, that is).
It is so important to me that when I read the opening words in Capital Kiwi's latest post on the topic, I literally became frightened. That I could lose future contacts with people of his brilliance will just be too great a loss. And he is not the only one I truly admire on this board. There are many and each one has such depth of knowledge that one in my circumstance would never meet in any of the circles I roam in.
What is happening is like a soul searching that I hope will restore the board to its "original" purpose with fun sprinkled all about for what is knowledge without humor.
(This piece was written at the height of passion so please forgive it its many faults in grammar, etc.)
I promised Rubrick by PM to “give ‘em hell”, but for now let me note something much more important, and hugely promising.
Bobyoungbalt’s post has sent us into exciting, new territory. Are we inventing a new kind of "government" for ourselves, an informal “cyber-government” to deal with our inevitable growing pains?
What could be more exciting/revolutionary than creating a way to govern our common interests and tensions? So viewed, the tensions in this discussion-to-date drop away in the excitement of our shared endeavor.
And MaxQ, I hope that prospect reenergizes you.
"I truly believe you need to take as much time as you do posting to read through the old posts, out of respect for those that enjoy this place as a discussion board, not a chatb room (that would indeed include myself)."
I stand by my words and their usage (not spelling
), and it is without hesitation do I say that they
should have (and did) elicit the above posted responses when quoted out of context, let alone understood out of context.
Kieva - Feel free to send anyone you like a copy of the
complete original PM, and I'll send them your answer
and my answer to your answer. I believe you will see pieces of all the above responses imbedded within that original PM... especially since a recent PM from you apologized to me for your own tendencies to lack etiquitte.
To this point I remain consistant. It is without a doubt that a "history" of the different personalities is important to understanding specific *umfamiliar uses of words (ie tones of voice), as well as developing and promoting the sense of community I already feel here. By no way do I suggest reading
all of the previous posts, but this place does not exist without them. It is out of
due respect for tsuwm, Jackie, MaxQ, WOW, wwh, Faldage, Mav, BYB, CapK, AnnaS, JazzO... (and all the others that also understand why I would stop the list at all) that I suggest creating a context to understand in by taking it upon oneself to study the history here.
JazzO says:
...communication is really all we have here, isn't it? Yes...and it is the 'personalities' of the words that are being "expected of", misunderstood or not understood at all, IMHO.
Peace
Kieva - editing your post (after the fact) does not erase the original copy that was sent to me - as your reply post was to me!
EDIT - There is no need for any more structure other than self government!
Bob: YES!
tsuwm: YES!
Max: YES!
CK: YES!
wordcrazy: YES!
Oh, I agree with everything you-all have said! Thank you, thank you! This
is a wonderful place, taking into consideration that nothing can please all of the people all of the time. This is not the first time that a great many of us have shown how very much we care about this place.
I shall try to be more aware, though, of how a newcomer may see things (hi, Wrangler!), but would also ask the new people to keep in mind that we "experienced persons" (!)
have our ups and downs, too. If anyone feels "jumped on", it is quite possible that the person doing the jumping is having a bad day, and their tolerance level is down, or perhaps they are just too short on time to realize how they are coming across.
I will confess now that several times, I have contacted persons who have been not posting for a while, and that some of them have come back (you know who you are-
). Here is a
partial list of whom I personally would like to see return to posting: Satin, Seian, lusy, Lucy, screen, michaelo, JMH where are you??, lapsus linguae, Marty, ammelah, shanks, Fishonabike (confess I didn't like your opening style, pardner, but you do have great posts!), xara, lukaszd, Solamente, Doug, whizzper, Father Steve, kummini, HouseWolf, des, Rusty, Nuntius, and doru.
Avy, belMarduk, Bridget, juanmaria, paulb, and Rouspeteur, I am assuming you all will continue to return and post as able.
NicholasW and Scribbler, I don't CARE if you're able--just make more posts, willya?
Take a deep breath, Musick.
No street-brawl is necessary, or appropriate -- hence I gave you the courtesy of quoting your remarks, which I consider intemperate, without attributing them to you.
You accuse me of mis-quoting you, and invite me to post your entire PM. Are you sure you want all the rest of your PM posted in public?
You say, "It is out of due respect for tsuwm, Jackie, MaxQ, WOW, wwh, Faldage, Mav, BYB, CapK, AnnaS, JazzO... that I suggest creating a context to understand in by taking it upon oneself to study the history here."
You are entitled to your opinion, musick, but you are not entitled to speak for them. To each of the above-named eleven: please PM me if you feel I have shown lack of respect, in which case, in the interest of avoiding conflict, I shall regretfully but willingly join Brandon and Rubrick.
I don't understand your misunderstanding of my intent. which has nothing to do with competition, just understanding. It was literally out of context because it was originally a private message. What other part of out of context have I not made clear?
I said ...send it to anyone you like... not "post it in public", and I fail to see where I was speaking for anyone except myself and my own respect for the above mentioned.
Since I have no words nor desire to describe this misrepresentation further, I shall bow out.
Forgive me, all.
EDIT - to avoid any further misunderstanding... I by no means insinuated that you, Kieva, have shown any disrespect... on the contrary.
>Are you sure you want all the rest of your PM posted in public?
take it from an "experienced person" (who the heck came up with that stale phrase??); this way lies folly and madness.
Where be these enemies? Keiva! Musick! See what a scourge is laid upon your hate that Heaven finds means to kill your joys with love.
Well, not really enemies or hate, I know, and with apologies to Willie S, can I suggest that you both have had ample innings and now it's ENOUGH!
Musick, you being, I believe senior in terms of time here, I address you first. When I read the short quote of your remarks to Keiva, I thought it really offensive. I'm now convinced that it was not originally intended to be so and I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt in his assertion that he didn't go about to make something offensive which was not. I certainly don't want to see you also taking a hike. I have great respect for your knowledge and ability to impart information, particularly in your special field. Indeed, you are one of those whom I most admire and enjoy on the board (along with a number of others, of course). We need you.
Ken, you are a really important new acquisition to us and I want to see you around a long time contributing to our common fund of knowledge and enjoyment. I have enjoyed your posts and hope to enjoy more.
Now can both you guys do a little cyber version of shaking hands and relieve us of having to worry about our little community being wracked asunder? Please?!
Bob, your post reminded me of a couple of things--one is JazzO's post to the effect that what are we about here, if not communication? It seems to me that the two of them are
trying to make themselves understood to each other, and probably doing a little bit of that in public, to try to bring an end in public to something that had been brought up in public. I know from personal experience that both of these people are as sweet as they can be, so I have a feeling that the whole thing was due to a misunderstanding which, as has been brought up before, is very very easy to do in this toneless setting.
In fact, one of the things I just did for the possible benefit of newcomers is to add a laugh or wink icon (good grief, anybody got any memory pills??). I believe I had become so complacent as to think that anybody reading some of the things I wrote would know they were meant to be humorous, when in fact they may have actually seemed like I was being insensitive or insulting.
The second thing your post reminded me of was the line that
"any man's death diminishes me". Well, when someone leaves the board, it is a kind of "death", as far as the remaining people are concerned, and I think that statement holds true here. But I have the firm belief that pretty much all of us are not the type to "take their toys and go home", and that includes these two nice guys. I love you both, and you too, Bob.
Hey, musick! Cubs just now won again! When they're in town next, I'll buy the first beers; you the second ... etc. etc. 'til we lose count!
-- keiva
(PS: I'm not a big guy, so that won't take long.)
There isn't a single person here on this board, that i would like to stop posting. there are many who i don't agree with, or who bore me slightly at times, but i suspect the number is less than people i annoy and bore!
i don't want to lose anyone. i have learned so much here, i am blown away with level of knowledge. even in a huge city like NY-- it hard to get an assembly, with so much in common, and so many people willing to share. Some of our best thread have come from simple questions.
like jackie, i was upset at some post-- we hit a bump in the road.. but i am pleased that so many are willing to keep this going, and going well.. Please, no more defections.
"Sweet speaking oft a currish heart reclaims."
--Sir Philip Sidney (1554-1586)
I havent had much time to spend on the board, lately, and Ive spent part of this evening catching up with this thread. The September posts reflect a greater camaraderie than some of the earlier ones may have. Informal discourse may be like drama arriving as it often does at prescribed endings. In fact, this may be one of the chief pleasures of certain kinds of conversation. And I take the presence of such forms here as evidence supporting the notion that what we do here is, after all, to engage in an informal discourse.
What has always struck me in Anus almost complete absence from the board is his apparent recognition that informal discourse is self-regulating. As far as I am concerned, the parliamentarian concerns that have sometimes been raised in this forum are neither more nor less than other parts of this inherent regulatory mechanism. But if the expression of these concerns hasnt always been out and out belligerent, it also has not always risen to the level of kindness.
It is a perhaps unfortunate quality of language that in use it will generally refer to some *thing. While proselytizing and bar room brawling may not be welcome here, to rule out content would seem futile. If we cannot trust one another to both write and *read posts discerningly, there can be little hope that the kind of dialogue many of the posters to this thread have described enjoying here could ever be realized.
And, to some degree, it has been realized.
For myself, part of the reason I havent been around much lately is simply that Im very busy. But it would be untrue to exaggerate the significance of that. As have others, I have found the board can be hostile. While the discussions here can be informative and entertaining, they can also be careless. And the existence of cliques sometimes seems to harden carelessness into a kind of sport.
I have come to respect many of you enormously, and once eagerly looked forward to what you had to say. I think I can even say I have found friendship here. But it is always hesitatingly that I come, now. More than thatI come with a vague sense of agony.
***
I imagine the title (newbie/pooh bah) business was originally a ruse to get people to post frequently and get the board off the ground. If that is the caseor even if it isntI would suggest titles be abandoned altogether (even at the software level). A tally might be given beside a posters name, and thats all.
IP
To all who wrote me such kind Emails and PMs. My heart runneth over.
Thank you!
(Where is that dratted teary-eyed-smile emoticon when you need it?)
The size of this thread was a bit daunting at first, but I am profoundly glad that I kept on reading... This discussion has, more than any other thread I've seen to date, made me aware of the reasons I came to this forum and the reasons why I want to stay. We are different, we have different opinions and beliefs and backgrounds, but we also have certain things in common, and those are what we need to focus on.
The main thing I want to say is that we should be patient with each other. I may have tried the patience of some of you at times
but I have never felt rejected or snubbed, and for this I thank you. I often feel slightly out of my depth here-- I'm so used to being "the smart one" everywhere else, and it's entirely different on the Board. There are so many impressive people here that I sometimes feel a little intimidated, or that I don't really have much to contribute. Most of you are older than I am, wiser than I am, or at the very least more experienced at this thing we call life than I am. This is not only true of me, but of some other members of the Board too. Have patience with us, please.
With that said, I want to let you all know how much I enjoy being here most of the time. I love the erudition, the humor, the banter, the simple friendship of this place. Thank you for the courtesy and kindness you have extended to me-- please extend it to other newcomers and "youngsters" as well.
Much love, Alicia
But it is always hesitatingly that I come, now. More than thatI come with a vague sense of agony.How sad Insel. I know some of you have no clue who I am and my opinions may not carry much weight but it might be a good idea, when you feel personally slighted, to send a personal message to the person who posted the note you believe is attacking you.
I really feel, like Jazz, that in most cases, it is a phrase or sentiment that is misunderstood - miscommunication at its worst.
Cliques, there are cliques?? And why wasn't I invited
? I don't think clique is exactly the right word sweetie. It is normal that some people, who have been on the board for a while, have more shared experiences than with newer folks.
Think about your personal group of friends. Do you not have some that you've known longer, who share more friendship 'baggage' than others. The other ones are not less important to you...just important in different ways.
I always read the Board believing that everybody is here to have fun and that the people here are basically kindhearted. Armed with that, if anything ever upset me (an extremely rare occurrence), I would go to the source to sort it out. It has *always* worked out.
This
is like a family - quirks and all. People have always taken me the way I am, proverbial warts and all, well I certainly appreciate it and do the same for them.
Bel,
While I maintain my positions, in general I can't really disagree with yours. I'm not really sure why I spoke up here at all, except that the resolution to a specific problem looked like burying a more general one which several, mostly female, correspondents felt existed. My remarks necessarily concerned my personal experience, but I brought up that experience in order to address what seems to be a more a--similar--general one. I wouldn't have brought the topic up myself--I only learned of the thread because it was pointed out to me. But, while I don't see the point in insisting on carrying baggage, I do have an aversion to sweeping things back under the rug once they've come out from under it.
Sorry I'm not around much, it isn't anything personal. I just don't have much time and I think that the day that I became an "addict" I knew I really was. I do get the daily e-mails and sometimes get time to read them. But the board is another matter ... for the size of the problem, look at the figures in brackets, and I've not been away all that long!
Q&A about words 14672 posts (3439 new)
Wordplay and fun 6960 posts (2278 new)
Last post: Mon Sep 3
Some of my work is on a project basis, so I lurch from half a job to one-and-a-half jobs at different times of the year. Then there are family committments and I do sometimes get to read a book. I've got a new always-on-broadband connection, so I don't need to count the pennies anymore but I do need to watch how much time in the day I spend sitting at a screen a) bad for my eyes (I really do suffer if I spend too much time looking at a screen) and b) bad for my girth - I really can't afford to skip any more exercise classes, I'll just wobble to oblivion.
I think that this board will be great place to spend my retirement (just keep going for another twenty years) as long as I get out for some air from time to time!
So, like many others, I enjoy being part of this community but have to accept that I have to give some attention to the other communities in my life. I'll be around from time to time to say hello and if I have anything that I think is worth saying.
BFN
Jo
Thanks, Jo! WONDERFUL to see you again! Ya-hoo-oo!
You two, my sweet belM!
Well, Bel, that's pretty much what I was trying to say in my own clumsy way. Good on yer, mate!
I think we need to give people the benefit of the doubt when something is said that could be offensive. It can be hard to say what you mean concisely and without spending too much time on it. As mentioned elsewhere on the Board, there is ambiguity in almost any sentence. I've said some clumsy things in my time here, hoping that others would assume the best (
)! If someone says something that bothers you, ask for clarification.
I do think we should keep the language and jokes at
least moderately clean, especially knowing that there are some young members on board.
There, I've put my two cents in...
>at least moderately clean
I've always been in favour of this. I supose that the term "moderate" is like "reasonable" it is down to individual definition.
I find, when watching films and television with my children that a lot of it goes over their head, buried in a context that they don't understand. Have you ever seen the film "Grease"? I saw it at the age of, maybe, 15. I saw it on video recently and realised that there was a story buried in there that even as a fairly "savvy" 15 year old, I had completely missed!
On the other hand, there is a lot of a much more explicit nature, especially here where programmes are "dressed up" as documentaries How many documentaries to we really need to make sure we are fully aware aware of the minutiae of life as a lap dancer, for example? My daughter caught the end of a programme the other day which was clearly giving the opposite of the strong anti-drugs message that they are given in school. She'll get her chance to make up her own mind some day but I'd prefer her to enjoy her childhood first.
So on the board, which is open (but probably not that interesting) to everyone, I think context is everything. I remember, in the mists of time, starting a discussion on language which gives offence. Gratuitous stuff, no thanks.
yeahbut
I have to also put forward a minority view in all likelihood: that prissying around with language in the manner of saying "sh*t" is also offensive. It is like the Victorians primly covering table legs with crochet work. It shows a lack of honesty. Either use the word or don't use it. (just my lack of c. worth)
prissying around with language in the manner of saying "sh*t" is also offensive
Not to me. I appreciate the efforts not to offend the sensibilities of someone like myself. I don't like seeing that kind of word here, though I don't mind it in books or using it if called for. So yes, I'm prissy.
s'okay, sweet pea, jest knew ah'd be in a minority
But people need to know the full range of views on these issues I guess.
I incline more to maverick's view, and if I remember the discussion we had about this before, there did seem to be something of a cultural divide between UK'ns and US'ns about use of bad language. I rarely see the need to use it on the board, but if I'm going to use such a word I'll use it in full rather than try to disguise it with asterisks.
Bingley
To ** or not to **
I think we've been here before. I suppose, context is everything. In context, let those who ***, *** and those who don't, don't. And sleeping dogs, they can look after themselves.
I read once (I think in People Magazine) that Will Smiths grandmother told him that swear words were used by people who were too ignorant of the English Language to make people understand their point of view. (Probably not word for word, but you get the drift.) In this forum, where we are either learning words or teaching words, most definitely *they* should not be used.
(I really haven't fallen off the face of the earth, I just have to catch up with reading too many posts.)
(Thanks Kev)
satin - Although part of me (don't ask which part
) agrees with you that they should not be used (most of the time), this
is the forum for us to clarifie what they mean to each of us, individually, and therefore (I can only hope) make "them" less vile. JMFO
We all miss you!
Just a few more posts and the stinkiest thread will be buried. If anyone wants to resurrect that thread, they better have a supoena in their back pocket
!!
