In the spirit of introspection:

One of the great things about the AWAD word list is the mind-boggling (Is this an incorrect or bad usage?) number of countries it goes to. Why then in comparison is AWADTALK so poorly represented?

most of those 400,000+ subscribers may have no idea it even exists; they probably have no inclination to visit the web site since they get the word via mail.

I was wondering about this just the other day, Avy...and pondering what would happen if just ten or twenty thousand of those suddenly decided to jump on to the board!?

is this the correct usage?...mind-boggling?

See a recent thread on Q & A "Mind-bogglingly + the loss of the -ly adverb" for a conclusive post on this question.

Actually I was thinking not so much about the numbers but the countries.
I am Indian. I have never travelled north of Kashmir. And through this board I have access to the English of the world. My writing, syntax and grammar have improved tremendously. And I would like to think I have contributed a bit from my country and culture. It would be nice to have more Japanese from Japan or South Asians from South Asia or Africans from Africa participating. Or isn't this an ideal world?

I completely agree, Avy - this is the key feature that makes this board so special for me, sharing a kind of global conversation. So many varied experiences and perspectives and therefore different varieties of English makes this a unique experience.

But given the thought about 20,000 new members, though, maybe we should adopt a motto of "Ssshhhhhh - don't tell a soul..." to ensure we only get 100 or so from each continent of this ideal world

The introduction page to AWADTalk says we have 2492 Registered members. I've been amazed at how that number is not growing (regardless of country of origin). Does Anu delete registrations after a long period of inactivity? (Here's the time to ask our favorite AWADTalk nemeses to do a test run and not post for a long period of time )

most of those 400,000+ subscribers may have no idea it even exists

That and I would suspect a reluctance to jump into a forum conducted in a language they may feel uncomfortable in.

I think you've hit the nail on the head, Faldage...
Also, I suspect most of those 400,000 must be people interested in words, but not necessarily mad about them

Not only persons for whom English is a second language feel intimidated. I do not feel qualified to comment on most of the topics, and what is worse it is on too late for this insomniac. A lot of people in Pacific area would have it at a very inconvenient time, I should think.

Let me offer another possible explanation - many of the countries represented in the listing may have reasonable email capabilities, but the bandwidth is likely prohibitively low to deal with the grandeur of all this. At least that was my experience in both Korea and China - internet access was a pathetic joke by comparison to how we're spoiled in the West. Another factor to consider!

Don't worry. Once we implement a new design with a prominent link to AWADtalk placed right in the middle we'll have people streaming in here.

bandwidth is likely prohibitively low...

mmm, s'what I find FB, some afternoons I just can't seem to concentrate...

a prominent link to AWADtalk placed right in the middle

Adverti(s,z)e it as The Place to Practice Your English Language Skills in the Privacy of Your Own Parlor

should that be Parler?

Not only persons for whom English is a second language feel intimidated.

I agree with Dr. Bill. I suspect many of those who register consider themselves "word people," but they quickly discover here that there are word people and then there are WORD PEOPLE. It's one thing to enjoy reading and to have an affinity for words, quite another to have the depth of knowledge about language that many AWADers exhibit daily. THAT can be intimidating!

I do think, however that all of the reasons discussed in this thead are probably contributing factors in the explanation of why more people don't participate. As for why there aren't more actually registered, if you explore the site but don't plan to post (for any of the reasons discussed here), there's really no need to register. You're already getting everything you want just by observing and soaking up the knowledge so generously shared here.

mav said sharing a kind of global conversation

I agree with mav and Avy that more internationally diverse board would be wonderful! The worldwide dialogue going on here is one big reason I'm so fond of this site!

nancyk said, just by observing and soaking up the knowledge

I second her agreement with Dr. Bill that the towering intellects featured here can be quite intimidating at first (it took me a couple of months of peeking in before I summoned the courage to post a question to start a thread, and I'll never forget the run that my first thread, "Neanderthal," gave me!...phewwww!!).
And, I must say, the idea that we might have an audience of, oh, say 250,000 popping in for a non-registered look can be mighty intimidating in itself!...so I'm going to file that in the back of my mind, lest I freeze up my posting with perfectionism and over-analysis! Nobody's watching.....are they?

> Does Anu delete registrations after a long period of inactivity?

I don't think so. Maybe it's time we asked Anu to do some spring cleaning and perhaps even some statistical analysis of the forum, so that we participants have a better idea of what we're regularly wading through here:-)

Maybe it's time we asked Anu to do some spring cleaning and perhaps even some statistical analysis of the forum

Oh, Sure! We all know The Great Anu has nothing else to do.

>We all know The Great Anu has nothing else to do.

another way of looking at this is: we all know that no one (with any power) pays much attention to what goes on here. actually, it's a microcosm of the way aol (ha!) works.

>(it took me a couple of months of peeking in before I summoned the courage to post a question to start a thread, and I'll never forget the run that my first thread, "Neanderthal," gave me!...phewwww!!).

You are so right about that. I too went through total hell with my first post and with every post I suffer minor agonies. If the unseen audience is terrifying for those familiar with English for others it might be easier to stay away. For me the most used button is Edit post. I write fast but after submitting it I see the post as others will and find a whole lot wrong. (For the post that started this thread I had written "self introspection" then I checked and found that introspection has a "self" aspect to it.)
---------
P.S I edited this post to write I did not edit it even once.
--------
P.P.S But then I edited the edition...

Sweet Avy, and all--
Yes, it is terrifying, thinking of all the people who will read your words, though I seem to have adjusted to it. (It sure was there, in the beginning--this was and is the only place on the internet where I interact with people, so I had no idea of what to expect.)
But this board, by and large, has evolved to be a pretty safe place to be--most of the time. And it seems that, when discourtesy surfaces, that usually someone comes along with salve for the wound.
As we have said before, this medium does make it even more difficult to assess a speaker's intent than when you can see them or at least hear their voice. It is wonderful, how almost everyone takes special pains to explain that their intent is not to cause offense. Though, just as with
face to face interaction, that can happen. For example, I might offer what I believe someone might be glad to learn, and find that they think I am telling them they were stupid not to have known that.
So far, the majority seem willing to first assume the best, not the worst, and have been (as far as I know) mostly proven right, when they check.
Again--my wholehearted admiration for the bravery of those participants whose first language is not English. Kudos.
I wish I had some of that courage.

I thought a lot about your last post, Jackie, wondering if I need courage in posting.
I think no, but I was helped since I first posted few days after the birth of AWADtalk, when we were young and it was not still clear what the Board will eventually become.
Also, I had - and I have even now - the feeling that English was the language of the Board, but that the subject of the Board is larger - words, languages, communication... and everything related to that.
So each one has something valuable to talk about - for me, I imagine, maths and my Latin roots.
And if I make some mistakes, well, I don't really care a lot. And if someone will correct me I will be happy and grateful to have a possibility of learning. But usually no one does, not even privately.

>I thought a lot about your last post, Jackie, wondering if I need courage in posting. I think no.
Me neither.

...wondering if I need courage in posting. I think no.


Goody, for both of you! You each have my unending
admiration, nonetheless.

Fiberbabe>>>>>
Let me offer another possible explanation - many of the countries represented in the listing may have reasonable email capabilities, but the bandwidth is likely prohibitively low to deal with the grandeur of all this. At least that was my experience in both Korea and China - internet access was a pathetic joke by comparison to how we're spoiled in the West. Another factor to consider!

Of all the possible reasons offered on why there is low AWADtalk participation, I believe that the one given by Fiberbabe is the more likely when it comes to Southeast Asia. The number of people owning computers is very low and not many have internet connection. Computer centers are the main sources of internet access and you pay by the hour to use it. I am afraid that what is considered commonplace in America (high-powered computers and internet access) is still a rarity for the majority of citizens in many countries.

chronist

Hi everyone
I'm one of those folks who only seem to be watching, not in the conversation. Not the a reason really matters but I'll give you the one that currently effects my life. I only connect at work & only get an average of 3 hours a week to be playing on here or anywhere else. What all that means is that I spend almost all that reading postings to stay somewhat current. Right now there are about 1500 new postings for me to read.

I've also found that many times few others are or no-one is logged-on when I am. Anyway thanks allowing me to learn from all of you.

CJ

And if I make some mistakes, well, I don't really care a lot. And if someone will correct me I will be happy and grateful to have a possibility of learning. But usually no one does, not even privately.

You don't really write it wrong, emanuela - you just write with an Italian accent - which I, personally, find as charming as I find speech with that same wonderful difference.

emanuela - you just write with an Italian accent

I have thought the exact same thing, and I wondered if I only noticed it because my Italian great-grandmother spoke (and wrote) similarly. I can also pick up a German accent in writing, because I studied it in High School. It's about word choice and word order, even if there are no grammatical errors. I also think your "accent" is beautiful. Like many people speaking a language other than their first, the unconventional choices and syntax you use are almost poetic at times. I've noticed this in the posts of our other non-native members, too. It's great to have you all aboard.

Emanuella,
Until I can write in Italian as well as you write in English I will continue in my present way : at the computer amazed at your command of two languages.
You go, girl!

Emanuela, during my time in Europe I noticed that different nationalities tend to have different reactions to strangers speaking their language. The Germans get all stuffy if you make any error and will actually correct you. The French take an error as a personal insult. But the Italians, God bless them, are delighted that anyone would try to speak their language and are completely tolerant of any errors, which they will help you with, but only if you seem to be looking for help, not like the French and Germans who see it as their mission in life to make sure anyone speaking their language does not defile it. Alas, I'm afraid that most English speakers in the U.S. (I don't know from personal experience about English speakers elsewhere) are as intolerant as the frogs and krauts. It has to do, I'm sure, with our well-known provincialism and isolationism. I have often heard low-class US'ns say something like, "Well, if these people can't talk English, and do it right, why don't they go back where they came from?" There's also the fact that, being ignoramuses (ignorami ?), they are not aware that English is an easy language to communicate in at a very basic level if you don't mind its not being elegant, but one of the world's most difficult to master. I don't think there is anyone on AWAD who would think this way, so maybe we all need to form the vanguard in an army to conquer this attitude and pursuade our country[wo]men to embrace all the odd, colorful, fresh and otherwise delightful ways in which non-native English speakers enrich our beloved tongue. And to any who would sneer at your English, there are a couple of Italian expressions made with the hands/fingers, not the mouth, which would be appropriate.

all the odd, colorful, fresh and otherwise delightful ways in which non-native English speakers enrich our beloved tongue.

As a purely personal thing, I love translating quirky Spanish expressions literally into English and seeing the reactions of those around me. I confess I do it mostly for a laugh, but at the back of my mind there is, I suspect, a subconscious, stubborn desire to expose British people to more* unconventional ways of using English. Most of the time my "foreignerspeak" gets ignored, and probably put down to a genuine mistake. But sometimes people do get curious and want to find out why I am saying that and what it means, and they take pains to give me the equivalent expression in English. I love that because it gets me talking about words and language with people...

Some of my personal favourites:
"The shrimp that falls asleep gets carried away by the stream"
"You lie more than you speak"
"Never say 'This water I shall not drink' nor 'This priest is not my father'" (sorry, Father Steve! )
"He who stands under great tree gets covered in ants"
"If you don't want soup you get three bowls"

...and some more I can't remember...


* The "unconventional" ways of speaking English are myriad here -as elsewhere, I bet-, and depend on many factors such as class, ethnic origin, geographical location etc. I am just contributing my bit to this Babel...

Marianna, those are great. I think that I discern the meaning of all of them, except the one about the tree and the ants. Could you elaborate, please?

Marianna, those are absolutely wonderful. I do hope you will treat us to more of the same, as they occur to you.

There is a great philosphical truth embedded in your soupy aphorism!

And the tree and the ants - am I right in interpreting that as a reference to those who stand in the protection or shade of the great and powerful have to put up with all sorts of irritations along with the benefits?

he who stands under a great tree gets covered in ants

Dear fellow AWADers, I do here admit to having recklessly misconfuzzled you with my "proverb" about the tree and the ants. Mea culpa. The real, traditional proverb will probably make much more sense to everyone, as it says "He who stands under a great tree is sheltered by a great shade". The "ants" version is a funny way of turning this truism upside-down. I can remember another one like that, when instead of saying "Rear crows and they will peck your eyes out" (the rather grim original proverb), we say "Rear crows and you will have lots of them".

About Rhubarb Commando's interpretation of the tree and the ants, in my opinion it is perfectly meaningful and often true. We may have a new, legitimate proverb in our midst!

Bobyb,

Hear, hear! I agree with everything you posted. I'd like to add a couple of observations:

- My experience is Europe was much like yours, except I spent most of my time in Austria where the folks, as in Italy, were pleased that I spoke any semblance of their language at all.

- I know many non-native speakers of English who speak it better than many natives.

...maybe we all need to form the vanguard in an army to conquer this attitude and pursuade our country[wo]men to embrace all the odd, colorful, fresh and otherwise delightful ways in which non-native English speakers enrich our beloved tongue.

Where do we sign up?

Marianna,

Those are great!!

Now you've got me trying to remember some Brazilian ones....

Marianna, your examples of proverbs were delightful. There are many proverbs in other languages which are almost direct translations, and others which express the same sentiment but with a different analogy. Any examples unique to a particular language?

It is an amusing game to reconstruct the ending of proverbs as in
"If at first you don't succeed, sky-diving is not for you". (Not original I hasten to add). Anyone like to contribute some original or really amusing secondhand examples?
A stitch in time - really messes up Einstein's General Relativity theory.

Rod

People who live in glass houses .... shouldn't have dogs and kids.

people who live in glass houses .. should ask Rhuby for the etiquette manual

Rod

People who live in glass houses should undress in the dark.

Once again AWADtalk shows its vitalilty by morphing a thread into something quite different and equally delightful.

When I first started learning German in 9th grade, we were taught the proverb, Wer A sagt muss auch B sagen -- Whoever says A must also say B. This was translated, In for a penny, in for a pound, which was singularly unhelpful if you didn't know about English money. I always thought it was a very cryptic expression.

muss auch B sagen

But isn't that a pun on besagen, Bob?

"But isn't that a pun on besagen, Bob?" Not much of a pun. The impression I have of the proverb is that if you start something, you have to finish it, or take the consequences.

to mean -- besagen
to prove -- besagen
to prove -- beweisen; erproben; besagen
to say -- besagen
to signify -- besagen

The pun is indeed achieved if besagen is understood to mean 'to imply'.

I remember some new math "A implies B" . But I still don't see the pun. Please spell it out.

Hey, Bill - give 'em a break - it's a German joke, after all! [runnink für mein life, leiblings]

Dear Mav: I'm just giving them a golden opportunity to demonstrate my inferior comprehension.
And the German-English draws a blank on "leibling". Presumably typo for "lieblings"? Or subtle coinage?

Dr Bill, you mean coinage as in "in for a penny, in for a pound"?
[ducking for cover emoticon]

Dear Marianna: I have learned to be on my guard with Mav. He sometimes hits below the belt in clinches.

I cannot tell a lei

I have learned to be on my guard with mav-arch, he sometimes hits below the belt in clinches.

Brings to mind one of those newly-coined AWAD Proverbs, DR. Bill... He who does in alias roam can never quite be trusted.

Bill, I asked my (German) girlfriend yesterday. She said it's as simple as the penny and the pound proverb, i.e. 'don't do things by halves'. She liked the 'besagen' idea though ;-)


part-time@nihilism.org

or a special AWADtalk motto:

When in roam, do as the roamings do.

Golden Rule: Do unto others as they would do unto you, but do it first.

>Once again AWADtalk shows its vitalilty by morphing a thread into something quite different and equally delightful.

Just wanted to say thanks for the responses to the thread.

.. And add some of our translated proverbs ..

- Barking dogs bother not a walking elephant.
- An Elephant's teeth - one set to show off with, one set to eat with.
- The Elephant has gone by only his tail remains
- The elephant does not kill the ant it steps on.

The third is a particularly nice one which signifies some large ordeal that is almost getting over.

my favorite slightly alter saying is
To err is human, to really foul things up requires a computer

- The Elephant has gone by only his tail remains


Or: The journey of a thousand miles ends with the very last step.

- The elephant does not kill the ant it steps on.

i like this one, though i'll readily admit that i'm not sure i understand it completely. i understand it *literally*, i think.... that it's kinda like trying to squoosh a spider with Nikes; they either get spared by one of the myriad grooves or they're just too darned small to flatten.

but what is the figurative meaning? can someone help me with an example?

TIA=)

As resident Ant on the board, I gotta protest at this outrage! Get that elephant orf me foot NOW

To err is human - to forgive is not company policy

I had that one on a poster and put it up in the supply closet ... a place the Big Wigs never visited! My fellow Toilers in the Vineyard always exited with a slight smile and a wink for me. How did they know it was I who posted? Hmmmmm....

> they either get spared by one of the myriad grooves or they're just too darned small to flatten.
Yes that is correct. There is space under the foot of the elephant (I guess being hoofed) in which the ant escapes the enormous weight.

I like the one about the teeth. I envision calling our living room the "tusk room" now.