Have you ever noticed how many abbreviations & acronyms there are where people have to or are inclined to say the last word of the group in order for it to be understood, such as 'PIN number' 'IBAN number' (international bank account number)? I have a feeling this is more common in English than other languages. Are we sloppy or overly cautious? Next we'll be saying, 'Would you like my international banking IBAN number'. Now I would like to know if there's a word for *that. (besides tautology)
In the American retail trade, we have the same thing with UPC. It stands for Universal Product Code – that black ‘n white square with lines you find on every product with a 12-digit code below it. Nobody says, “what’s the UPC?” They always say, “What’s the UPC code?
And, to make matters worse, whenever I say “What’s the UPC” people always pause and look like they’re trying to figure out what I’m saying; like I haven’t finished my sentence, or something. It’s really odd.
Zed's right, UPC code is redundant, yet it has now become that specific term.
Sheesh!! You people act like a little redundancy was the end of the world. Redundancy is good! Redundancy ensures that you'll be understood. Redundancy gives you a better signal to noise ratio. Remember, every time you use some plural number with a plural form of a noun, you're being redundant. Every time your verb agrees with your subject you're being redundant. Embrace redundancy. Redundancy is your friend.
The redundancy that irritates me the most is the term "software program" that seems ubiquitous in manager-speak, but "PIN number" is a close second.
We have a reporter on the ground investigating this.
I'm not sure I'm grasping what you have to say there Faldage, can you go over it one more time?
The redundancy that irritates me the most is the term "software program"
And what is redundant about "software program"? There are other kinds of programs and there are examples of software that don't qualify as programs.
An Hispanic friend of mine goes crazy when she hears, "salsa sauce." Do people say it so they don't mistakenly get "salsa dance" with their tacos? Another annoying culinary redundancy is the phrase, "with au jus."
>>Do people say it so they don't mistakenly get "salsa dance" with their tacos?<<
Heaven forefend!
***
Maybe they think salsa means "hot"? or is that generous?
In reply to:
An Hispanic friend of mine goes crazy when she hears, "salsa sauce." Do people say it so they don't mistakenly get "salsa dance" with their tacos? Another annoying culinary redundancy is the phrase, "with au jus."
Neither of the above examples are really reduncancies, though. Since "salsa" and "au jus" have been adopted into English, English is free to apply its own rules to them. Saying "salsa sauce" is NOT the same as saying "salsa salsa" in whichever Romance language one happens to deriving the English word from.
though I would say "with au jus" due to my ignorance of French, and the reason that Vernon mentioned, I have never heard anyone say "salsa sauce".
thankfully.
There are many of these phrases that would seem to be redundancies, or at least prone to being redundated (not that there's anything wrong with that). Scampi means shrimp (pl) in Italian. That doesn't stop us from using it as a word meaning a way of preparing shrimp (among other items). Lox is ultimately (through Yiddish) from the German word for salmon but we use it to mean particularly smoked salmon
I think in one of the AWAD mail issues someone noted that "La Brea" means "the tar", so that to say "The La Brea Tar Pits" was to say "The the tar tar pits".
Not with salsa sauce, perhaps, but pobviously with tartar sauce.....
If I can put up with the hoi polloi without wincing, I'm sure other people can put up with with au jus and salsa sauce, not that I've ever heard or seen either of them.
Bingley
wofa, I think you're worth quoting here:
i.e., TOR = hill in indigenous language
PEN = hill in language of first conqueror, who called it Tor Pen, thinking it was "Tor Hill"
HOW = hill by next wave, giving "Torpen How" in his language
HILL by most recent, etc., giving the present Torpenhow Hill
Lest we find our manners abbreviated and not working can I welcome you prolix? Pull up a chair, throw rocks, enjoy the cheerful anarchy of this place!
Yes, welcome, prolix! 'Scuse us for getting all caught up in the discussion.
You people act like a little redundancy was the end of the worldReluctantly I feel compelled to agree with you against my will
By the way,
New Scientist magazine has an ongoing section on the subject of "redundant acronym syndrome".
http://www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=mg18624971.400Some of the examples quoted here are also to be found there: is that circularity or redundancy?
Thanks for the link, weissbier. I'm going to go off and explore the guy's website:
http://members.aol.com/RivieraRatt/redund.html
I take exception to his BTK killer. The K does not stand for killer so if you just say BTK you've missed an important aspect and if you say BTKer people are going to look at you all funny like and nobody's going to pay any attention to anything else you say. As for the emergency EPIRB rescue beacon, I'll grant him the emergency but the R is for Radio, not Rescue. If you say EPIR rescue B you've chopped the idea of an acronym all to behoozis and if you say EPIRB rescue you've totally compromised any hope of communicating. Fighting redundancy is like fighting the whole idea of communication. Let it be and spend your efforts on a fight worth fighting.
> Fighting redundancy is like fighting the whole idea of communication. Let it be and spend your efforts on a fight worth fighting.
Amen. Prescriptivism delenda est!
>>Delenda est<<
What does that mean, pray tell -- and amen twice: well done again, Fald.
Delenda estMax is playing off Cato's old carch phrase
Carthago delenda est, "Carthage must be destroyed." In doing so, he slips in a certain amount of irony (or whatever you want to call it). See:
http://myths.allinfoabout.com/nutshell2.html
Odd--I don't remember hearing that in The Pink Panther Strikes Again.
Prescriptivism delenda est!A minor nit, prescriptivism would be masculine in Latin,
prescriptivismus, so the gerundive should be
delendus. But, yes, I agree.
>>...I agree<<
[/ironicon]
>A minor nit, prescriptivism would be masculine in Latin, prescriptivismus, so the gerundive should be delendus. But, yes, I agree.
Since I model myself on Billy S, in knowing little Latin and even less Greek, I was certain that I would get it wrong. But that enriched the point, in a pythonesque kind of way, na?
in a pythonesque kind of way, na?
Nee! I mean, yes.
"And what is redundant about "software program"? There are other kinds of programs and there are examples of software that don't qualify as programs."
In most contexts, the meaning is clear. When I speak of acceleration to a missile expert, I don't have to say, "The engineering concept of acceleration."