In geographic category, wwh noted : The members of the Hanseatic League each had trade outposts in Britain. There were two main groups: The Easterlings and the Westerlings. Each had a silver coinage of such dependable value that there arose a demand for it, and the phrase "Pound Sterling" became current.

The post reminded me of hearing the phrase "Pounds or guineas?" concerning what amount is asked for a service. My understanding is that a guinea is a bit more than a pound.
I've wondered how we name our currencies ... and why the names were chosen. Is there any meaning to the word dollar or yen? What made the Irish decide on Punt?
Perhaps our Non-US friends could give us the names of their currencies?
And as a quirky note ... the US 10 cent coin is called a dime (reference to the decimal? A tenth of a dollar?) and it is the only coin to have its nickname embossed on the coin itself.
Anyone ?
wow

I have read that "dime" started as Louisiana "disme" = a tenth of a dollar.

Anyone who's travelled to Canada may know this next factoid but there are lots of people on this board who live very, very far away, so I'll post it anyway.

Our one-dollar coin is called a Loonie. Yup. The original form, which came out in 1987, had a picture of a loon on the tails side (and, as always, the queen on the heads side). There have been many commemorative loonies since then, with people, soldiers, the Parliament buildings...but they're still loonies. The standard one still has a loon on it.

Then, in 1996, they decided we needed a two dollar coin to replace our two dollar bill. It has bears on it, and it's one of those nifty two-metal coins with a bronze middle and a nickel outer ring. There were numerous contests all over the country to name the new coin and lots of cute names were proposed. However, they are now informally called Toonies. I think it's a pun on the 2 dollar value, plus it rhymes with Loonie. But it's not usually spelled Twonie. Now THERE'S one to look up in my Oxford Canadian Dictionary at home.

I found pictures of them at the Royal Canadian Mint's homepage products catalogue: Click on One Dollar or Two Dollar coin: http://www.rcmint.ca/products/en/main.cfm?Product_Id=100&Section_Id=2&Area=Products

As an aside, they produce all the Canadian coins in Winnipeg, my hometown. Yay Winnipeg!

Yes, a guinea is 21 shillings = 1 pound 1 shilling = 1.05 pounds.

I assume punt is just how pound sounds in Irish Gaelic.

Here of course we have the much-ailing rupiah (often just called the rup (with an oo sound)). I assume the name is connected to the Indian rupee. A long, long, long time ago the rupiah was divisible into 100 sen. The one hundred rupiah coin is often referred to as perak, literally silver. So Rp. 500 would be called 5 perak. These days of course it's just a tacky plastic token.

Bingley

Rumour-humour had it that, at the time of its introduction, it was feared that the Irish equivalent to the pound would fall rapidly in value. It was named after the flat-bottomed boat so that it would remain upright when it hit the bottom!


Given its current strength, it is the joke that fell flat!

I looked up dollar in the dictionary and this is what I got for its origins as a word:

Low German daler, short for Joachimstaler, a coin from the silver mine of Joachimstal, now Jáchymov in the Czech Republic.

However, it doesn't explain how this word came to be used for the currency of Canada, US, and Australia (and probably smaller countries which weren't listed in that dictionary entry)? Also, why do we use dollars in Canada and not pounds (ditto for Australia)?

After the war (independence) there was a lot of anti british sentiment-- the new govement made an effort to have new money, and reject Pence for cent (as in 1/100) and chose dime (which is not a nickname, but the name of ten cent piece, (nickel is a nickname, from the metal used to make the coin). Quaters became popular since the spanish gold dollars that had been used where often cut into 4 or 8 wedges, and a quarter today is still called "two bits". So US money names are a combination of new made up names for money, and existing non english names for money. The original plan was for three denominations, cents, dimes and dollars.Nickels and quarters where not part of the original monitary plan, but came to be latter.

What if find interesting is how England (and Ireland) have quickly adopted 1pound coins, but the US public fight against 1 dollar coins.
I think it is because most men in this country don't carry change in a coin purse, but loose in there pockets, and the dollar coins are too heavy.

What if find interesting is how England (and Ireland) have quickly adopted 1pound coins, but the US public fight against 1 dollar coins. I think it is because most men in this country don't carry change in a coin purse, but loose in there pockets, and the dollar coins are too heavy.

See, that's what we find odd in Canada. Men here have approximately the same pocket-change habits as those in the US, and we do have both one and two dollar coins. In fact the toonie (see above) is an improvement because if someone gives you $4 change, that's only two coins instead of four. (Nothing like the poor cashier having to give back four loonies and apologizing for being out of toonies - this is starting to sound like Dr. Seuss!) So we find it REALLY strange that there is no US dollar coin, or any two dollar piece at all (bill or coin).

>England (and Ireland) have quickly adopted one-pound coins

Yes, I found the lack of a dollar coin very strange, especially as dollar bills are so .... smelly ... yuk

In Scotland we still have pound notes. I'm still not used to them and often pull one out expecting it to be at least a tenner .. the disappointment!

In reply to:

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So we find it REALLY strange that there is no US dollar coin, or any two dollar piece at all (bill or coin).

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Of course there is a US dollar coin. when i was a child, it was the "eagle", then came the "susan b anthony" dollar coin, and now we have the "golden" dollar. there was also a gold (real gold, not just gold colored) $10 coin too, but these have been rare since before WWII.
and we have a two dollar bill-- but that is rare too-- one good reason to make a visit to one of the US Mints it to get a $2 bill. They are great presents for kids-- cheap souviners of US. My neice in Japan loved her $2 bill!

of Troy wrote : we have a two dollar bill-- but that is rare too-- one good reason to make a visit to one of the US Mints it to get a $2 bill. They are great presents for kids-- cheap souviners of US. My neice in Japan loved her $2 bill!
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It's extremely rare to see a $2 bill in circulation these days. I cannot remember getting one in change for a larger bill for the past 40 years!
They were used a lot at racetracks for $2 bets! So having a lot of $2 bills sort of gave a lie to excuses to the Boss that you were at Grandmother's funeral!
When I was MUCH younger they were fairly common but presented the problem of being confused with the $1 ... The $2 is easy to confuse with a $1 as they look alike except for the number. Led to a lot of "short changing" i.e. getting no or less returned money than you should when a purchase made.
So, the $2 gained a reputation for being unlucky.
In the 1940s and 1950s you often got a $2 with the upper left corner torn supposedly to counteract the bad luck ... but in a practical way it drew your attention to the number in the corner so you were less likely to mistake the $2 for a $1. Whew!
The $2 would make a neat souvenir but I don't know where you'd get it except at the Mint ... For gifts I have often brought foreign coins home as souvenirs and bought the coin holders that encirle the coin without damaging it and that has a loop at the top ... available from jewelers ... so that the coin could be put on a chain and worn as a necklace. The new $1 golden eagle coins make nice presents for children.
I never confused the 50-pence coin when in UK because it had corners -- don't know how else to describe it -- and cannot fathom the reason the US hasn't adopted a similar shape. Sure would make the $1 US coin easy to distinguish from the US 50-cent piece which is nearly the same size.
Oh, for the non-USA coin collectors out there, the US Mint is currently making coins commemorating all the States's entry into the Union. Featuring the state seal on each coin. Legal tender. The Northeastern states, being first in the Union are now available. The 50 coins will be made in batches and the entire 50 state set available in, I believe 2005. The US Mint has a web site and you can order online and get news via Email.
wow

The "torn corner" bit was what made them "unlucky"
Con artist would stack a two and one together. then tear of the corners of both bill, getting the same "tear" line. they they would "paste the 2 onto the one. you only ripped one corner off of each two, and the $2 bill would still be legal tender-- but you eventually ripped all the corners off the $1-- and with a bit of effort and tape, doubled its value. then you took a stack of "2's" with some bogus "2's" between the real ones, went to a busy store, and "bought" something-- so if every 3rd bill was bogus-- you got an $18 item for $15 dollars. With inflation, that is not much of a discount, but in days past-- it was a big deal!

It was done with 20's too, Four corners of a $1 with $20 denomination on it. crumple the bills, put them out of order, it would be easy at christmas time or other busy times to cheat a cashier. which is why they were taught to line up all the bills, face up, in the same direction, and look at the whole bill, not just the corners! Now its easy to cheat credit card companies, and that is not a federal offence...

Of course there is a US dollar coin.

Okay, I phrased that wrong. I knew there were dollar coins in the US, and I'd heard there was a $2 bill, but I was aware that they were pretty much never seen in general circulation. Our loonies and toonies replaced the corresponding bills, so we have no choice about what to use! And we'd "always" used $2 bills, before the toonies, without confusion...but that brings me to the next post about confusing bills...

Confusing bills are never a problem in Canada, because each bill is a different colour (five=blue, ten=purple, twenty=green, fifty=red, hundred=brown). When I've travelled to the US I've been extremely confused because your $20 bills and $1 bills look essentially the same, to one who is used to looking for colour!

I think what this comes down to is whatever you're used to is the best. As a Canadian I'd never realized how much the colour coding was burned into my consciousness until a few trips to the US where all your bills look like they should be twenties!

2 dollar bills
I have been told that the main reason why $2 bills and 50-cent coins are rarely seen in the U.S., although plenty were issued, is because there is no slot in the drawer of a cash register for them, so retailers discouraged them and didn't usually give them in change, since they tended to get thrown into the bottom of the cash drawer, under the tray with the slots holding the other cash. This is, I think, the main reason why $1 coins do not catch on. I doubt very much that $1 coins or $2 bills will ever catch on until the U.S. govt. takes the very sensible step of discontinuing the $1 bill, which has been discussed for a long time.

retailers discouraged them

...tho' good ol Kaintuck loves them $200 bills

Guineas
As noted, a guinea was worth 21 shillings, or one pound (20 shillings) plus 1 shilling. There was a guinea coin until the early 1800's, when it was discontinued. But for some reason, sellers of luxury products continued to price their goods in guineas, so that right up to the time of the introduction of decimal currency, a Rolls Royce, or a fur coat, or a diamond necklace, would usually be priced in guineas. Likewise, many professional fees were also set in guineas, so that your solicitor might send you a bill for 100 guineas for the costs of your lawsuit against the Harley Street specialist who charged you 5000 guineas to remove your tonsils. Of course, when you paid your solicitor, your check was for £105/-/-.

And speaking of odd pricing practices: the apparently unbreakable practice of pricing items at one cent less than a dollar ($3.99; $89.99) was the result of store owners wishing to force clerks to give change with each transaction, so that the clerk would be required to open the cash register and tally the sale instead of pocketing the exact sale amount handed to him. This must have been before the days of sales tax ...

your check was for £105

Coutts Bank will apparently still honour a cheque written longhand as '105 guineas'. This from those lovely people who have blithely lent some dotty old bat several millions without any security, just because she claims to be the Queen's mother - good to know the old values aren't completely dead!

is because there is no slot in the drawer of a cash register for them

When we had our $1 bills changed to coins, everyone had to get new drawer inserts made to accomodate them. All the pop machines had to get new machinery and be re-calibrated. And everyone did do this, although the retailers sure complained. Eventually everything was straightened out - only to have the toonie introduced a few years later - then the whole process began again!

So we find it REALLY strange that there is no US dollar coin, or any two dollar piece at all (bill or coin).

Both Australia and NZ have one- and two-dollar coins, but for some bizarre reason, the Australian two-dollar coin is smaller than their one-dollar coin, and, to add to the confusion, is almost exactly the same size as the NZ one-dollar coin. Given that $1AUD =c.$1.21 NZD, it can be annoying to realise, too late, that the one dollar coin one has just inserted into a vending machine was actually worth $2.50!

In reply to:

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I have been told that the main reason why $2 bills and 50-cent coins are rarely seen in the U.S., although plenty were issued, is because there is no slot in the drawer of a cash register for them...

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Funny, I've always heard that it was due to the tendency for collectors/packrats to hoard them.
My guilt is not only implied, it's admitted.

And jmh, I'm with you. Bills are smelly.

Bean asks Also, why do we use dollars in Canada and not pounds (ditto for Australia)?

In Australia we initially adopted the British pounds-shillings-pence system which was in use until decimal currency was introduced in 1966 (14 Feb 1966 to be exact - I can still recall the TV ads with a cartoon character called Dollar Bill). I presume they chose "dollar" rather than "new pound" or some such to avoid confusion.

1 pound converted to 2 Australian dollars. Initially there were 1c,2c,5c,10c,20c and 50c coins, then notes for $1, $2, $5, $10, $20, not sure about higher denominations. [As an aside - 50c coins were initially pure silver, but when the value of the coin dropped below the value of the silver people started melting them down, so they changed the metal!] Many years ago when inflation had eroded most of their value, the 1c and 2c coins were phased out. Prices are still quoted to the nearest cent but totals are rounded to 5c. The next development was replacing $1 notes with coins, then $2 notes with $2 coins. Like Max I rue the fact that they opted for a $2 coin smaller than the $1. Then came plastic notes instead of paper. Oh and there are also $50 and $100 notes (and probably higher but I never see them!)

The old names bring back faint memories for me :-
florin, shilling, sixpence, threepence (pronounced throopuhnce with a short 'oo'), penny, halfpenny (pronounced hayp-ny) and farthing (=1/4 penny; this one was out of circulation in my time). Some of these had nicknames too - "zack" (sp?) is one that comes to mind, but I don't know which one it is.

But what the heck is a "rahzoo" (sp?), as in "I haven't got a brass rahzoo"? Is that a widespread expression?

there is no slot in the drawer of a cash register for them, ($2 bills)

I'm surprised some company hasn't tumbled to the fact that they could market new inserts -- for a price, of course -- and even whole new cash registers!
Where is that great American entrepreneurial spirit for making an honest buck?
wow

In reply to:

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Where is that great American entrepreneurial spirit for making an honest buck?

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Or two, to be more precise!

Sure would make the $1 US coin easy to distinguish from the US 50-cent piece which is nearly the same size.
Oh, for the non-USA coin collectors out there, the US Mint is currently making coins commemorating all the States's entry into the Union. Featuring the state seal on each coin. Legal tender. The Northeastern states, being first in the Union are now available. The 50 coins will be made in batches and the entire 50 state set available in, I believe 2005.

Actually, the 50 cent piece is quite a bit bigger. It's strange how we don't make the coin sizes in order of value. The nickle is bigger than the dime. The one dollar coin is almost the same shape as the quarter, and when you're searching in your pocket with your hand you can't really tell the difference that much. They did facilitate that by making the dollar coin have smooth edges compared to the quarter's ribbed edges. Part of the favor for the bill as opposed the coin is that you may not want coins weighing down your pocket, but a guy will always have his wallet with him because it has his drivers license.

And about the 50 State Quarters Program, they're releasing 5 each year, (one every 10 weeks) so it will conclude in 2009. The ones out so far are Delaware, Pennsylvania, New Jersey, Georgia, Connecticut, Massachusetts, Maryland, South Carolina, New Hampshire, Virginia, New York. North Carolina is next. (And they would be so presumptuous as to put "First Flight" on their license plates and now their coin when the Wright brothers developed the plane and lived their whole lives in Ohio! . . . maybe we'll put astronauts on ours. More astronauts have come from Ohio than any other state. John Glenn was even our senator. )

Thanks JazzO for straightening out the info re coins.
On subject of coin sizes :
A friend who is a neurologist uses a standard old test for patients .. you are asked to close your eyes and identify the coin he places on your fingertips ... the coin size helps a bit but people's guesses soon deteriorate .
He told me that he was amazed just once : when an older gentleman patient named every coin correctly through a triple length test. Turned out the gentleman was a retired fare collector on a bus line. Being able to identify coins by touch was a necessary part of the job. He could spot a "slug" by touch alone!
Now there's a party trick if I ever heard one!
wow

Identifying objects by feel is "stereognosis". Funny with all the other "stereo" words my dictionary did not have it.

>or any two dollar piece at all

Oh yes, I knew one of those "ladies" once.

OOOPS. Sorry. Wrong forum! I thought it was A Whore A Day.

In reply to:

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a guy will always have his wallet with him because it has his drivers license.

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I was vaguely under the impression that the US term for a wallet was billfold. Is there a difference between the two?

Bingley

<"zack" (sp?) is one that comes to mind, but I don't know which one it is.>

Zack was sixpence, Marty, and a razoo was [according to Syd Baker] a non-existent coin, sometimes a brass razoo, as in "I haven't a razoo" (I haven't any money). There was also a skerrick (a small sum of money), but used negatively as in "I haven't a skerrick".

In reply to:

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It's strange how we don't make the coin sizes in order of value.

---

Like almost everything else, things today are the way they are because they are unchanged from what suited before. Originally, the sizes of the coins approximated actual values. The penny, made of copper, contained about 1 cent of value. The nickel, made of nickel, contained about 5 cents worth of nickel. The dime, made of silver, contained about 1/10th of a dollar's worth of silver. Quarters and half-dollars were also silver, and are thus were progressively larger. I think dollar coins were initially gold, but changed to silver a long time ago. Although the metallic content of the coins has since changed, the sizes initially established have remained.

About recognizing coins by feel...not all the Canadian coins are round, so that helps. The penny has 12 sides and the loonie has 11 sides. Some old nickels have "square" sides, maybe 10 or so (I've never counted), but the current ones are round. Also dimes and quarters (like in the US) have ribbed edges, while the others have smooth edges. Our new series of bills which just started coming out has Braille on them.

Here's a money-related question: what images do other countries put on their coins? Here we have
penny - maple leaves
nickel - beaver
dime - the Bluenose (a sailing ship)
quarter - caribou
$1 coin - loon
$2 coin - bears
Our bills all have famous Canadian guys (politicians) on them.

I can't even remember what is on the US coins, except the penny has a building on it, I think. Anyone else want to share?

US currency imagery:

penny - President Lincoln in profile/Lincoln memorial, there are still some old (pre 1960s-ish) pennies with wheat shafts opposite the Lincoln profile

nickel - President Jefferson profile/Monticello

dime - President F Roosevelt/liberty torch

quarter - President Washington profile/eagle is the standard issue, as previously discussed, each state now has/will have its own quarter, and there are still a few 1976 bicentennial quarters about

half dollar - President Kennedy/?

dollar - issued in 1980ish, the Susan B Anthony coin has SBA on one side, and I can't remember the other. -- issued in 2000, the Sacagaweah (sp?) is gold and has Sacagaweah and her baby on one side, and I haven't seen a photo of the other side.

All paper money is the same color scheme - gray ink on one side and green ink on the other

one dollar - portrait of Washington/eagle and pyramid in circles

two dollars - ?

five dollars - Lincoln portrait/Lincoln memorial

ten dollars - President Hamilton/Treasury building

twenty dollars - President Jackson/the White House

fifty dollars - ?

one hundred dollars - Benjamin Franklin/?

well the US mint has a web site too, and if any one is interested you can look up details of money
http://www.usmint.gov/

Bingsley-- I know stores sell bill folds, but men carry wallets-- i think its like Luggage/baggage...

and old name for english money,
started with farthing, ha'peny, penny (pence), tupence (2 pence) thrupence (3 pence) 6 pence, shilling, and there were half crowns,(2/6 as i recall) crown (5 shillings), florins (10 shillings) -- mythical money included "a brass farthing" (maybe it wasn't always mythical? during WWII, the US made steel dimes-- not silver ones) I am so old, i remember when a pound sterling was worth over $5.40 US!-- and then being given a shilling (12 pence= 60 + cents!-- instead of a dime for a treat! Boy was it every a treat! i felt like the queen of the may!

and up to about 1950, US had Liberty dimes-- with a representation of Lady Liberty-- they were very popular.

one dollar - portrait of Washington/eagle and pyramid in circles

The Egyptian pyramids? If so, why on earth would that be? If not...well, which ones?

Yes an Egyptian pyramid-- and the latin for "New World Order" (novus ordo seclorum) but the pyramid is not finished-- which is supposed to mean the US of A is not finished-- that we are still evolving to a new world order...
the top of the pyramid has an eye-- and a bit of latin i forget-- (and i am not running now to babblefish to translate) annuit coeptis It is all part of the "great Seal of the United States" the other side of the seal has the eagle, it carries 13 arrows and a olive branch with 13 leaves-- and in times of peace the eagle always faces the olive branch-- but in times of war he faces the arrows...in his mouth he carries a banner-- e pluribus unum-- (from many, one)
Remember-- we were started by a bunch of intelectual revolutionaries!

nickel - President Washington profile/Monticello --- Make that Pres Jefferson and I'll go along with it.

dollar - issued in 1980ish, the Susan B Anthony coin has SBA on one side, and I can't remember the other. -- issued in 2000, the Sacagaweah (sp?) is gold and has Sacagaweah and her baby on one side, and I haven't seen a photo of the other side. --- There's an eagle on the back with maybe some mountains and stars of the number of states that were in the Union at the time of Lewis and Clark's little cross country jaunt.

two dollars - ? --- Thom Jefferson -- Signing of the Declaration of Independence on the back (yes, I have one in my pocket)

fifty dollars - ? --- Pres. Grant. Not sure about the back.

one hundred dollars - Benjamin Franklin/? --- Scratch the question mark. It is good old Benjy.

>dime - President F Roosevelt/liberty torch

Yeah, and the liberty torch is flanked by what look like two sprigs of parsley for garnish... one's got to be an olive branch, I guess I'll have to go the the US Mint website and check out the herbs.

>half dollar - President Kennedy/?

I just so happen to have one in my purse (didn't I mention I hoard odd currency?). JFK is indeed on the front, and the Presidential Seal eagle is on the back (shield in front, talons outstretched holding olive branch and arrows, 13 rays, blah blah blah). Looks like 50 stars around the eagle (to represent of each state), but I'm not going to count them just now.

And with regard to my pet, the two dollar bill (good for you for carrying one, Faldage!), I think one of the things that attracts me most to it is the phenomenal detail with which somebody's famous painting of the signing of the Declaration of Independence is rendered.

I promise when I get home I'll check my stashes of Ecuadorean sucres (a rare find anymore...), Korean won, and Chinese yuan. I'll report back when I know more, Cap'n.

When the Roosevelt dime first came out, a Republican joke was that it was the only coin with a naval vessel on it:
A destroyer.

Here's a money-related question: what images do other countries put on their coins?

The NZ 5¢ coin has a tuatara on it, the 50¢ has the Endeavour (Captain Cook's barque), the $1 coin has a kiwi surrounded by a fern wreath, and I can't remember the others. The NZ $5 note is apparently unique in the world for depicting a living person other than a head of state. It features Sir Edmund Hillary. NZers have the highest rate of ETPOS usage in the world, and almost the lowest rate of ATM usage in the developed world. CapK's hometown market's itself as "cash-optional" since it is possible to pay for absolutely everything electronically, right down to parking meters

Fiberbabe comments: ...my pet, the two dollar bill (good for you for carrying one, Faldage!)...

I plead innocent. I have it purely by chance. I stopped off at the Co-op after chorus last night and paid for my small purchase with one dollar bills. The checkout clerk commented that she had gotten two two dollar bills earlier and couldn't get rid of them (I don't know why she had to get rid of them) and I offered to buy one from her (I still had a bunch of ones) since the subject had come up in some other context.

There's an eagle on the back with maybe some mountains and stars of the number of states that were in the Union at the time of Lewis and Clark's little cross country jaunt.

Oh boy, more Ohio propaganda for me. The Louisiana Purchase was made in 1803, the same year Ohio was admitted as a state. Lewis and Clark began their journey shortly thereafter and it wasn't until 1812 that the next state, Louisiana, was admitted. So there are 17 stars on the coin, because Ohio is the 17th state.

And along with the 50 State Quarters Program. Had they started it in 2000 instead of 1999, which would have been logical, Ohio would have had their coin come out in March of 2003, the bicentennial and same month of Ohio's admittance. Oh well . . . Although, Ohio's coin is coming out the year that the Lincoln Memorial thinks is its bicentennial. The Lincoln Memorial has the states' names and year of admittance carved around the top. For some reason it has 1802 for Ohio.

Well done on the English coins, of troy. Only one mistake, a florin was two shillings not ten. I can't remember for sure now whether there was a ten shilling coin before decimalisation. I think it was a ten shilling note. There was also a groat, which was fourpence, but that died out a couple of hundred years ago.

Bingley

NZers have the highest rate of ETPOS usage in the world, and almost the lowest rate of ATM usage in the developed world.

Max, I agree about the highest level of EFT-POS usage here - I generally don't have more than 50c in my pocket. A friend of mine who has a shop in Dunedin says that between 85 and 90 percent of his turnover is via EFT-POS.

But I'd like to see your evidence for lowest rate of ATM usage. There are FIFTEEN of them, I'm told, in Lambton Quay in Wellington alone although I've never counted them. This is believed to be the highest concentration of ATMs in the world. I've had to hunt high and low in cities in Europe and the Strine to find an ATM. You just about trip over 'em here. Que pasa, senor?

But I'd like to see your evidence for lowest rate of ATM usage.

Peccavi, mea maxima culpa. I simply parroted what I saw on a news bulletin about three nights ago. It centred on the significant decline in NZer's use of ATMs. There are indeed an awful lot of them, but since every bank bar one now charges disloyalty fees of up to $2 for using machines other theirs, it seems Kiwis are abandoning the use of ATMs. The piece gave both the factoids I shamelessly propagated, along with mentioning one datum I could concur with from personal experience, to wit, that many people use efpos purchases at supermarkets to get cash rather than going to an ATM. The most amusing part of the bulletin was listening to a bank rep. trying first to deny that there was a trend away from ATM use, and then trying to put a positive spin on it, one that omitted any acknowledgement that exorbitant fees might conceivably be part of the reason. That was entertaining.

>Cash Machines

There has been such a fuss about disloyalty charges by banks, especially in rural areas where they have closed so many branches that a lot of the charges have been lifted (doubtless they have found other ways of charging us). I think they are also worried about keping customers in the light of the growth of internet banking.

I take it that ETPOS stands for electronic transfer point of sale or something like that. We call it Interac or Direct Payment here. It's very popular and all but the very smallest of business have it. (At our Taekwondo club we still have to pay for our membership by cheque/cash, for example.)

Question to US'ns: I've heard that direct payment didn't really take off in the US. True or false? Do you personally use cash a lot? I'm all about Direct Payment. (Forgive the younger-brother-like grammar there; it fit.) Then (as long as you have money in the bank account) you never find yourself with not quite enough cash for all your groceries or whatever.

However, I have a related makes-my-teeth-itch thing: People tend to say "Interact". Notice that above, I spelled it as it is spelled on the cards - NO "T" at the end!!!!!!!!!!! None, not even a little one!!!!!!!!! ARGH!!!!!!!!!

My ATM card was recent made into a "direct payment" card-- and I cut it up and sent it back!

I tend to keep a high balance in my checkbook-- (i also have high deductables on car and house insurance) and i do not want to have my ATM/Debit card "cloned" and my account cleared. Its was a big problem in California, on of the first states to begin to use ET POS. I use cash or credit cards. If my credit card is cloned, i am liable for the first $50-- I can afford that!.

What happened in CA was, in wascarwashes and other small businesses that work with "part time" help, and very little direct Management, the employees set up small cam corders in the drop ceiling tiles, to record someone pin number-- and then used the "print out of purchches (which included account numbers, but no "pins") and synced the two-- there are some places i am told where you don't even have to put in a pin! It swipe and go!
I also bank at Citi-- so there are thousand of branches-- so when i was in Japan-- i went "downtown" and used my ATM to get more cash. Citi doesn't add a fee if you use an other bank*, but can't void other banks fees. I rarely end up paying them, since in NY Citi has millions of branches-- including some that are just machine branches--no back services except ATM's.
*This is not a plug for citi bank-- i get great service because i have a "High Balance"-- which i think is weird! my high balance is the "Balance due" (on my mortgage) because its over $10,000, i am considered a "high level" user! It will be years before I fall back into the catagory of less than $10,000 in combined balances in my accounts! it not hard to have a balance due on a mortgage ove $10,000!

Okay, I found a website for the Canadian bills, too, if anyone is interested:
http://www.wallis.com/cdn_bills/
Then you can see just how colourful they are.
And for more imagery, I can now tell you who's on them:
$5 - Wilfred Laurier - 2nd prime minister (I think), and a bird (belted kingfisher) on the reverse side
$10 - John A. Macdonald - 1st prime minister, and peacekeeping/Remembrance Day stuff on the back (this is brand new, came out last month) (the old one had an osprey on the back)
$20 - the Queen, plus a loon on the back
$50 - William Lyon Mackenzie King (prime minister during WW II, I think) plus a snowy owl on the back
$100 - Sir Robert Borden (prime minister, don't remember when), plus a Canada goose on the back

They have just stopped making $1000 bills. These had the Queen on them. (I had a bath towel modelled after one.) All the bills also have pieces of the Parliament Buildings on the front. Funny about all the animals - I had noticed the animal theme on the coins but I hadn't really noticed it so much on the bills until I wrote up this description. As I recall, the $2 bill had robins on the back, before it was replaced by the coin. I guess it was a bird series.

Question to US'ns: I've heard that direct payment didn't really take off in the US. True or false? Do you personally use cash a lot?

I get my paycheck direct deposited, I have, for the last two years gotten my Federal tax refund EFTed to me. I generally buy my gas with debit/ATM card but not my groceries; there is a charge for the latter but not the former. I do direct payment on three of my monthly bills (out of eight??).

I've heard that direct payment didn't really take off in the US. True or false? Do you personally use cash a lot?

To this Old Lady, direct payment IS cash!
I have two friends in high banking positions ... neither has a debit card. Hmmmmm.
Of Troy makes an excellent point about the stealing of PIN numbers and cloning of cards and the $50 liability for credit cards.
At my bank recently the Head Teller asked if I wouldn't like using their new debit cards. She went to extoll the virtues of said cards.
"So much easier than writing out checks," she said enthusiastically!
"No thanks," I replied, "I don't want to lose the float."
"Oh, they never mentioned that in our seminar" she said with a puzzled look.
"Float" is the time between when you write a check and it gets through the system and the debit is posted to your account.
Interest bearing checking accounts compute on the "average daily balance."
Pay your bills on Friday afternoon and the check isn't debited to you until probably Monday or even Tuesday. Or Wednesday in event of Monday holidays. With Debit Cards the deduction is immediate!
Doesn't sound like much $$$ ...?? ... Think about how long you'll have a checking account. I've had one since 1950 when I turned 21. Probably earned enough for a RT ticket to Ireland over the years.
Ask yourself : If Debit Cards did not make money for the Bank, would they offer them?
Just a random thought...

wow

of troy wrote: My ATM card was recent made into a "direct payment" card-- and I cut it up and sent it back!

Same card for both here, always has been. This is getting confusing.

I looked up the terms of ATM (and direct payment) cards on my bank's website. They don't hold you repsonsible for losses if you unintentionally contribtue to someone knowing your PIN (as in the example about the cameras) and you co-operate with their investigation. I guess that would be the fundamental difference in why they didn't take off in the US, but they are so popular here. People don't really fear using them here, or at least not for the same reasons. It's probably easier to forge a cheque than rip off ATM PINs.

Plus, it's such a pain to write cheques. Then you have to have your chequebook with you! For someone who still refuses to carry a purse, this is definitely an issue.

As for the service fees, here they are universal on all direct payment transactions, no matter what kind of store (see Faldage's post). I have decided to circumvent this so I use an Internet banking provider for day-to-day stuff, and they have no service fees at all.

i only use cash to pay my housekeeper and non-citizen gardeners and such, or sometimes to get discounts on big ticket items like furniture or home improvements.

my bank charges a nominal fee the first time you use your ATM card for goods and services each month (i think it's like $10 or so) then you have unlimited use of it the rest of the month. As someone pointed out, it can be used as a credit card, with no PIN at all, at many places, but my bank covers any unauthorized usage without any penalty deductibles, so the convenience is worth the risk of having to deal with being temporarily without a checking account in the event that my card is stolen and my bank account cleared.

My grocery store has its own Debit Card which is linked directly to my checking account, so i never use cash there.... and i never even write physical checks to pay bills because i do it all online through Quicken. In fact, i don't even have to prompt the payments to go through on my 'fixed' bills such as mortgage, car payments, cable, schooling, donations, etc. It makes life a bit more simple, and all this automation leaves more time for AWAD and other distractions

I guess, if what of troy and wow posted is typical of an American's sentiment toward the Direct Payment method, then I can see why it didn't take off as quickly there. No offense, of course, but I don't think I've ever heard ANYONE here respond as vehemently as they did to the question about debit cards. [quiver-in-fear emoticon] Ah well, I just wondered...and now I know!

Bean's Canadian currency site shows a picture of the 1991 $20 bill, with a portrait of Liz II on it, and underneath it notes that "a Common Loon is on the back."

http://www.wallis.com/cdn_bills/English/1991_20.htm

<insert own punch line here>

JFK half-dollar
Everyone seems to have forgotten the Eisenhour half-dollar, which had a bust of that President on one side and I forget what on the other (I have one at home). After the release of the Kennedy half-dollar, you didn't see them any more, and the Kennedy half-dollar was as short-lived as all half dollars. I hasn't been a popular coin because of its size.

No one has mentioned the gold coins, which were not uncommon before the U.S. went off the gold standard in the 1930's. (My father mentioned that his parents received their pay weekly, in gold and silver, no notes). The eagle was a gold coin about the size of a quarter, featuring an eagle, and worth $10; the half-eagle ($5) was smaller; the double eagle ($20) was about the size of a half dollar and was a very handsome coin. There were also bank notes which were redeemable in gold.

Max has a point about bank "disloyalty" fees, and I didn't mean to imply that the usage of ATMs wasn't dropping to some extent, because it is. But I think that the banks have it wrong - the usage of ATMs has dropped away because of the proliferation of EFT-POS, which stands for "electronic funds transfer - point of sale".

Like Bridget96, we have an arrangement with our bank which means that we pay a total of $20 per month in card-related fees for DD cards, including ATM withdrawals/deposits. While this doesn't obviate fees by other banks, I don't generally find this onerous because my bank hs so many ATMs that I rarely go to any other bank's machines. We also negotiated a deal to void fees on ATM transactions with another major bank on the basis that we have a mortgage with them, and did they REALLY want to keep our business? This probably covers at least 50% of the machines in NZ.

One of the blessings of ATMs is that I can use my direct debit card anywhere in the world that has ATMs. And given the relative lack of value of the NZ dollar anywhere but here, it's also one of the curses ...

One of the interesting issues that has arisen as a result of NZ's wholehearted embrace of cashlessness is that it is extremely difficult to get any business at all to accept a cheque. I used to write dozens of the damned things in a month, and now we pay precisely one (1) - count 'em - cheque a month on a regular basis, plus pay the odd tradesman (and most of them are odd).

I think paying bills should be a task ... reminds me it is real money ... also keeps me more cognizant of the finances in general, seeing the numbers, going through the checks. Easier to spot an error or a kited check, etc.
Perhaps I am simply old fashioned but I do no personal banking business over the Net. I have one credit card that I use exclusively for updates on the McAfee thingie and that's about it.
On other hand, perhaps some lean, tough years taught me to be more money conscious.
I went to a seminar for seniors on "Scams" about a year ago and a woman spoke on how her identity was stolen and the hell she went though for FIVE years before it ended after they caught the thief.
The police officer conducting the seminar noted the thief is not always caught and we should check statements, guard PINs etc etc.
The theft in this particular instance was done this way :
Her car was stolen. A police officer stopped the car for a minor violation. The thief (a woman) said she had lost her license but offered the registration that was in glove compartment. The officer called up name of registered owner on the computer and wrote THE THIEF a ticket which included The real car-owner's SOCIAL SECURITY NUMBER.
The thief, armed with that info was off and running.
It happens more than you think. The woman's bank accounts were cleaned out,the thief called the bank and changed the PIN number and got a new Debit Card mailed, charges on (new) credit cards were HUGE, her apartment was entered and cleaned out,(they had her ID) her credit was ruined. Sheer hell for five years.
After hearing that I went to DMV and had my SS number taken off my driver's license ($10 fee.) Subsequent license, this year, I checked the box eliminating SS from license.
I understand that in some states your Social Security number is your license number ...
I do not give my SS as an "identifier" and when I refuse EVERY TIME I have been given a random account number.
Am I Cassandra? A lone voice in the wilderness?
Ahhh, well. Not the first time.
wow

wow--

There are quite a few horror stories like that one.

I am not touting this as a service (translated: they aren't paying me), but Discover Card has a new gimmick that makes one heck of a lot of sense. If you want to pay on lline with your discover card, you push a button on your screen and your computer links to the Discover Card center and it creates a one use Discover Card number for you. The program tells Discover whom you intend to pay (but not how much, I believe) and Discover creates a card number and inserts it in the proper space. You can then send it unsecured because only the merchant they already have associated with that particular number can "use" that account number. SLICK!!!

Am I a Cassandra? A lone voice in the wilderness?

No, not by a long shot. I was always under the impression that Social Security Numbers were private and not to be used for identification. However, what does Kutztown University of PA use for student ID numbers? You got it. Ditto for my dad's employee number at the railroad. He hates this fact and complains (loudly) about it at regular intervals.

one use Discover Card number for you. The program tells Discover whom you intend to pay (but not how much, I believe) and Discover creates a card number and inserts it in the proper space. You can then send it unsecured because only the merchant they already have associated with that particular number can "use" that account number. SLICK!!!

Agreed. When I first read of the one-use credit card number, I was very impressed, and can only hope that Visa adopts a similar scheme soon.

..I do not give my SS as an "identifier"

Yes-- Stolen ID's-- are becoming a bigger and bigger problem-- SS#'s are not supposed to be used for id purposes-- but my college used it as my ID#, and some HMO's do the same--and lots of people who have no need for them ask for them.

Once i had to go into US state dept. office (US Mission to UN) and they wanted my SS# to run a "security check" -- i asked for head of security department-- and told him SS# can not be used for this purpose-- he rolled his eyes, and gave me a weary look- and said--Ok, you pass your civics test--your right-- but i have a job to do..

Police demand to see SS card when you are arrested-- and enter number into court records! Public documents! and since Birth certificates are also public-- bingo-- with some effort-- some one could look up birth records- get "mother's Maiden name"- the other "key" with social securty# to your fiscal identity!-- I am normally not too paranoid-- but somethings make me crazy!

No WOW, you're not alone!

No WOW, you're not alone

Thank Heavens! And special thanks to all who responded to my tale so kindly. What scared me was she was not alone, even in her State.
When I spoke to the Officer later he said the problem has increased exponentially in last five years. Scary.
The Discover card one-use number sounds good ... but I shall await developments.
(Cautious old coot emoticon)
On the back of the SS card I had way back in the 1940s, it was printed that it was federal offense to use Social Security for identification. Does anyone know if they changed that federal law?
I tell that to people who ask for mine !
(Glad others do too.)
Sometime in the mid-1960s (Viet Nam war years) the Armed Forces stopped using military "serial number" and changed to SS number. I still remember my late husband's "old" serial number. My Dad, uncles and brothers could reel off thiers at will. Once learned never forgotten.
(Betcha' wwh can remember his!)
Of course the military requires giving up many of the privacy rights enjoyed by civilians!
Could it be the military started something that was taken up by other institution?
Excuse me while I go write my Senator and Congressman ...
wow

Could it be the military started something that was taken up by other institution?


I think it has more to do with computer systems databases
Your SS# is only yours(Hah), it's really only the last 4 digits.

The college I work for it is also the student ID, creating file problems for our alien students. Your only number is not correct for all those who are or have gone through process of becoming a citizen.

I had to get them for Girls as soon as they were born so the state could keep track of some my student aid stuff. Next year I will do a search on all 3 of our numbers for social security earned, to make sure mine is still fixed & there has none.

In the early 80's the IRS figured out that SS administration had issued my origanal # to 5 women of assorted ages, in different areas of the US. Our first,last & middle names, birth day & month were the same. At least the first one sort of made sense even our fathers first & last names were the same(both very common)

It's made me slightly paranoid about SSA information, not that I expect there to be any money for me or the girls to collect when were of age.

CJ

In Massachusetts, your Social Security number is also the number on your driver's licence. No way of keeping it secret. I have seen several horror stories about identity theft, and it does seem that the police are insufficiently helpful about solving such problems

In Massachusetts, your Social Security number is also the number on your driver's licence.

Not just that. When you get a sales and use tax number for business, it's your SS# also. Imagine giving a business your SS# just to loose the tax! I haven't used mine for purchases because of that... I need to get a federal number ASAP. (You can do the same for the driver's license too).


Ali

Dear Posters:
I received a Private from a member who was upset by my writing : On other hand, perhaps some lean, tough years taught me to be more money conscious.
The Poster thought I meant my statement as a criticism of younger folks. Please believe that was not my intention.
If others were offended by what must have seemed to them to be a pretentious statement, I apologize for any upset caused.
wow

My Dear Wow~

*i* just wanted to state, for the record, that reading your post made me think just a bit about my capricious attitude towards such things. (funny... my husband can say it til he's blue in the face, yet when a relative stranger mentions the importance of banking security it somehow takes on greater importance... but then, you're a stranger whose wisdom i admire )

as for any of your posts being offensive... no worries! we have Sparteye for that!

Welcome, Seian. This is a pretty strange land, all right!

wow, you said, received a Private from a member who was upset by my writing : On other hand, perhaps some lean, tough years taught me to be more money conscious.
The Poster thought I meant my statement as a criticism of younger folks.

Well now, this sounds to me like someone was a little bit paranoid. There was no ref. to age, at all. And rather a lot of young adults have had "some lean, tough years", too.

Also--I hope there was a private joke/explanation behind that remark about Sparteye, none of whose posts I have found to be offensive.

Perhaps we could lighten up a bit, folks?

There most definitely was a private joke... or i owe Ann a PM... i was referring to her *hilarious* picking up of the gauntlet in another thread. (Ann.... you did realize that, right???)

Hmm, maybe Bean can help me out on this but I don't think we use our SS for anything other than government identification (eg. setting up your tax situation in a company, paying taxes, et al).

In Québec our medicare number, our driver`s license, employee number are all different. Makes for a lot of numbers to remember.

it can be annoying to realise, too late, that the one dollar coin one has just inserted into a vending machine was actually worth $2.50!

You put MONEY in VENDING MACHINES?

Capital Kiwi : You put MONEY in VENDING MACHINES?

Oh, yeah. And in parking meters, public telephones, toll road baskets, laundromat washers and dryers ... so if you travel in USA, find a Bank and get a couple of rolls of quarters ($5 per roll) and bunch of one dollar bills.
Some vending machines are set up to provide change but not all are ... and sometimes the machines which are supposed to give you change do not ! so I make sure I have a few $1s on hand at all times!
When travelling, the ashtray is a handy place to keep the quarters and a few $1s.
wow

And as I said before, use correct amount when purchasing packets of stamps from vending machines in US Post Office, or you get in your change those censored deleted unprinted silver dollars that are so easily mistaken for quarters.

CapK sniggered You put MONEY in VENDING MACHINES?

That's right, my whriendly WhanganuiaTaran, gloat away. Here in little ole Hicksville (LIU), we don't yet have them newfangled vending macvhines wot takes them EFTPOS cards. When they does gets here, I'll be usin 'em.

You put MONEY in VENDING MACHINES?

Reminds me of seeing a little kid whining to his mother that he put is money in the gum machine, but didn't get any gum. In strong ethnic accent, his mother coached him:
"So beng it a leedle!"
There were also some "phreaks" years ago who could fool phone operator into thinking they had deposited a coin by belting the box. So, CK, are you a vending machine phreak?

All right, what are you all on about? Doesn't everybody put money in vending machines? Is junk food free in other countries???? [colour me confused emoticon]

BelMarduk asked Doesn't everybody put money in vending machines? Is junk food free in other countries

For my part, I took CapKiwi'squestion to be a refrence to the latest generation of vending machines that are starting to pop up here in NZ. These new machines are operated by cards, either credit cards or debit (POS) cards. Some use rechargeable swipe cards which come in set values and have the appropriate sum deducted from their memory after each use. The more I waffle on about these new vending machines, the less likely it seems to me that they were what CapK had in mind. Kindly ignore the above babblings.

CapK sniggered You put MONEY in VENDING MACHINES?

That's right, my whriendly WhanganuiaTaran, gloat away. Here in little ole Hicksville (LIU), we don't yet have them newfangled vending macvhines wot takes them EFTPOS cards. When they does gets here, I'll be usin 'em.

I wasn't sniggering, I was shocked. I thought that you just banged them on the side and they coughed up whatever it was you wanted, and that they know what you want through AI telepathy. I, um, never use them at all, you see!

And in answer to wwh's suggestion that I might be a phone phreak, please sir! Have more respect for my integrity! I used a small copper strip which you inserted behind the face plate of the phone to hold the money lever down while I stole phone time, my good man. None of this crass and unnecessary vandalism for me, no sirree! (And I haven't done THAT since about 1960. I think the Statute of Limitations applies or at least that's what I'll claim.)

I used a small copper strip which you inserted behind the face plate of the phone to hold the money lever down while I stole phone time, my good man

My stepgrother used to be able to make free phone calls from the older coin phones by tapping the connector button thingies to bring the number to 0. So, for example 878 2754 would be 232 8356. I never had the dexterity to pull off the rapid sequence of taps required. This enabled me to adopt an utterly spurious air of moral superiority.

Yup, belM is right about the SS number (actually called social insurance number or SIN here - how funny - no one thinks twice about the acronym). After our discussion began, I checked it out on the gov't website. The only people you must give it to are the tax people, employers (to deal with tax and pension stuff), and banks (because you earn interest from them which counts as income). Some businesses do ask for it anyway, not knowing or not caring about the rules, but you don't have to give it. However, they can deny you the service in question - which is kind of contradictory - if you don't want to give them the number.

Anyway, most places do follow the rules, so like belM I have a different drivers' license number, medicare number, student number, etc., etc. Furthermore, I don't think that the DVL even has my SIN anywhere on record. They never asked for it when I got my license. The University has it because you get tax credits for tuition, but they don't use it as a student number.

old name for english money,
started with farthing, ... mythical money included "a brass farthing" (maybe it wasn't always mythical? )

(Sory for resurrecting a dying thread but I have just managed to log on for the first time in some weeks...)

I am reminded of the penny farthing bicycle (come back Shona, all is forgiven!), so called because it had a big wheel and a small wheel. The pre-decimal English penny was huge, and the farthing minute.