Wordsmith.org
Posted By: AnnaStrophic The most beautiful word in English - 11/27/04 09:05 PM
This article, from the Sydney Morning Herald, was sent in Anu's weekly AWADmail this week:

~~~
Mums take heart. The most beautiful word in English is mother. But father doesn't even make the top 70.

To celebrate its 70th anniversary, the British Council compiled a list of the 70 most beautiful words in a survey of more than 42,000 people from 102 non-English speaking countries. About 7000 English students in the council's schools were quizzed directly; the rest responded to an on-line poll.

Filling out the top 10 were, in order: passion, smile, love, eternity, fantastic, destiny, freedom, liberty and tranquillity. Down the list were peace at 11, serendipity (24), pumpkin (40), lollipop (42), bumblebee (44), peekaboo (48), kangaroo (50), whoops (56), oi (61), hodgepodge (64), fuselage (67) and
hen-night (70).

Only one of the words, cherish (16), was a verb that could not be used as a noun. Mother was the only word that described a relationship between people.

Professor Anna Wierzbicka, of the School of Modern Languages at the Australian National University, suggests that people voted for the top five not so much because they like the words themselves, but because they value the concepts they represent. They would probably have voted for the equivalent words in any language. "For example, when they say passion, they are not really thinking about the English language, they are thinking about things they value in life."

But she says some of the words express concepts that are specific to English, and do not necessarily have exact equivalents in other languages. "For example liberty or freedom. Perhaps even destiny. There are many languages, like Australian Aboriginal languages or Japanese, which wouldn't have words like liberty or freedom."

When we get to hippopotamus (52) or flip-flop (59), however, people seem to be deciding more on the basis of sound than meaning. "But something like hen-night they like not because of its sound, but because they think it's an amusing idea, and they like the amusing idea. And possibly the way this idea is expressed. It's a kind of jocular expression."

Carmella Hollo, a linguistics lecturer at the University of NSW, says a similar survey was conducted of native speakers in 1980 by The Sunday Times, and the top words were melody, velvet, gossamer, crystal, and autumn.

She says people are generally thought to favour words with m, l, r and n sounds, and to dislike f sounds. This may partly explain why mother tops the list, yet father doesn't rate a mention.

~~~

I dunno about y'all, but native speaker or not, I'd be hard-pressed to come up with a single "most beautiful" word, whether we mean to sound of the word itself or the concept it symbolizes.

http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2004/11/25/1101219683777.html?oneclick=true

The primary source: http://www.britishcouncil.org/

Posted By: themilum Re: The most beautiful word in English - 11/27/04 11:17 PM
"There are many languages, like Australian Aboriginal languages or Japanese, which wouldn't have words like liberty or freedom."

Or Swahili or German. The concept transcends the term. The term is universal and the term is Love - unequivocal and indiscriminate - Love.

How could it be otherwise?

Posted By: jheem Re: 自由 zìyóu - 11/27/04 11:46 PM
I'd say that the phrase "the most beautiful word in the English language" is meaningless and worse yet without referent. It's as elusive as the apocryphal "funniest joke in the world". Poppycock, piffle, and bushwa.

http://www.jumpstation.ca/recroom/comedy/python/joke.html


Posted By: Faldage Re: No word for … - 11/28/04 12:09 AM
Fish don't have a word for water.

Posted By: jheem Re: No word for … - 11/28/04 12:17 AM
Bird don't gotta fry.

Posted By: plutarch Re: ×ÔÓÉ z¨¬y¨®u - 11/28/04 01:55 PM
I'd say that the phrase "the most beautiful word in the English language" is meaningless and worse yet without referent.

I'd say that contemplation of "the most beautiful word in the English language" is perhaps the most meaningful thing we could do to introduce the language to a student of english, jheem, and the fact that it doesn't have a "referent" is a liberating virtue of the exercise, not a criticism, and certainly not a restraint.

What is more, I think John Keats, one of the pre-eminent poets of our language, would agree.

Beauty is truth, truth beauty -- that is all Ye know on earth, and all ye need to know.

What comes first, jheem, the awareness of beauty, or its analysis?

For those to whom analysis comes first, it is because, I suspect, they have no 'awareness' of their subject.



Posted By: jheem Re: a big fat goose egg - 11/28/04 02:17 PM
contemplation of "the most beautiful word in the English language" is perhaps the most meaningful thing we could do to introduce the language to a student of english

Sorry, but I have to disagree. The contemplation of the most meaningless sentence in the English language is more meaningless than the sentence itself. This is not a criticism of you or meaninglessness. This does not mean that the assignment of such a contemplation ought not to occur in the school setting. In my estimation, school is more meaningless than the contemplation of the most meaningless sentence in the English language.

What is more, I think John Keats, one of the pre-eminent poets of our language, would agree.

Mister Keats, he dead.

What comes first, the awareness of beauty, or its analysis?

Meaning comes before beauty.
Language comes before analysis.
Thought comes before posting.

Posted By: plutarch Re: a big fat goose egg - 11/28/04 02:33 PM
Meaning comes before beauty.

If I "savor" a wine, jheem, do I savor its sensations, or its chemistry?

Yes, Keats is dead, jheem.

And so is Shakespeare, and Lincoln, and Gandhi.




Posted By: themilum Re: a big fat goose egg - 11/28/04 02:34 PM
Now jheem, there you go again getting all bothered and such just because of a simple little question. Of course a single word or concept can be compared to other words and concepts. Remember, the most dynamic agent of human progression known to mankind is Christianity.
And the essence of Christianity is just one word - unqualified love. (uh, make that two words).

Posted By: jheem Re: a sea of everlasting calm - 11/28/04 02:46 PM
there you go again getting all bothered and such just because of a simple little question.

Sorry, themilum, but I'm not particularly bothered by you, plutarch, or any questions thereto. He asked a question, and I answered it to the best of my abilities. If you don't like my answer, I'm sorry.

Remember, the most dynamic agent of human progression known to mankind is Christianity. And the essence of Christianity is just one word - unqualified love.

You win; you are mas macho; your non-sequitur is longer than mine.

Posted By: jheem Re: un and bother and ed - 11/28/04 02:54 PM
If I "savor" a wine, do I savor its sensations, or its chemistry?

If you savor a wine it's because you have a tongue first, a brain second, and a language third. Where's the beauty? Taste and thought. In vino veritas, of course, but always in moderation.

Yes, Keats is dead. And so is Shakespeare, and Lincoln, and Gandhi.

Yes, and so are Marlowe, Polk, and Nehru. "Is there in truth no beauty?" is an ambiguous sentence. I leave it for you to contemplate over a glass of Beaujolais Nouveau.

Oh, and lest you think I am angry:

Posted By: plutarch Re: a sea of everlasting calm - 11/28/04 02:54 PM
I answered it to the best of my abilities. If you don't like my answer, I'm sorry

You did answer it, and most admirably, to the best of your abilitiies, jheem --- at least, up to the final sentence:

"Thought comes before posting"

That was not characteristic of you, jheem. And not worthy of you either.

Can we not disagree with one another in intelligent discourse without taking it personally, or making it personal?

I must confess that I was going to respond to your rejoinder "Thought comes before posting" with this:

"And thought comes before criticism, as well."

But that kind of 'eye for an eye' innuendo is what has soured even the best of minds, yours notable amongst them, to the high potential of this Board.

If I have been too quick to take offence in the past, that is a failing I sincerely hope to rectify. I hope you will encourage me in the effort.



Posted By: jheem Re: a sea of everlasting calm - 11/28/04 03:05 PM
"And thought should come before posting"

This is my personal mantra. I write much to post on AWADtalk, most of which I don't post, but cut and paste into a text file which I save and usually never view again.

That was not characteristic of you. And not worthy of you either.

But, you see, even I can only be driven so far, before, at some point, I, too, snap. I am not sorry I wrote it, just that I posted it.

Can we not put this kind of innuendo behind us?

It seems not, alas.


Posted By: plutarch Re: a sea of everlasting calm - 11/28/04 03:11 PM
re Can we not put this kind of innuendo behind us? It seems not, alas

That sounds like a vote for more of the same, jheem.

But should that vote carry, even with a majority, it won't carry with me.

Posted By: TEd Remington Re: a sea of everlasting calm - 11/28/04 03:59 PM
I think in this particular case the most beautiful word in the human language is "hush."

Posted By: themilum Re: a sea of everlasting calm - 11/28/04 04:05 PM


Posted By: Faldage Re: The most beautiful word in English - 11/28/04 04:13 PM
To say that any particular word in any particular language is the most beautiful word in that language presupposes a standard of beauty and some definition of word. Is it the sound of the word? The look of the written word? If it's the concept behind the word it's not really the word per se that's beautiful and I would submit that this is the case with mother. If this is the case, then it doesn't really make sense to say that it's the word that's beautiful nor that it's particularly beautiful in that language as opposed to other languages. We also have the fact that beauty is a very subjective quality. With all these variables I can't see any reason to disagree with nuncle's statement.

Posted By: plutarch Re: The most beautiful word in English - 11/28/04 05:04 PM
If it's the concept behind the word it's not really the word per se that's beautiful

I would agree, Faldage. To a person dying of thirst in a desert, "water" is surely the most beautiful word in the english language.

Yet some words are beautiful because they marry sound and concept, or sound and imagery.

"Melody" is such a word. "Melody" is "melodious". "Fierce" is "frightening", "formidable" and "ferocious".

Is "mother", beginning as it does with "m", more evocative of nurturing than "father" which begins with "f"?

mmmm good!

f ???

Perhaps we judge words, like people, by the company they keep.

"m" hangs out in more beautiful company, overall, than "f".
Posted By: musick ....Talk to Mr. Ed. - 11/28/04 06:03 PM
I submit that the most beautiful word is 'beautiful'.

Posted By: plutarch Re: ....Talk to Mr. Ed. - 11/28/04 06:29 PM
I submit that the most beautiful word is 'beautiful'.

Such beauty lies in the mind of the beholder, musick.

For myself, I would say "birth" or "laughter" or "sunset" because of memories which I associate with these particular words.

Beautiful is what these things are, but they are not "beautiful" [at least "the most beautiful"] apart from my experience of them.

It occurs to me that the words we choose as "the most beautiful" are a mirror into our very soul.

Those who feel imprisoned will see more beauty in "liberty" than those who are free.

Those who are overcome with stress will see more beauty in "tranquility" than those who are overcome with boredom.

This is precisely the genius of the famous "Luscher Color Test". The primary color or colors a person chooses in preference to others is deeply revealing of that person's psychological state, even their state of health ... and these preferences will vary over time as these "states" vary in any given individual.



Posted By: musick Red sails in the... - 11/28/04 07:20 PM
Such beauty lies in the mind of the beholder, musick.

If you insist.

For myself, I would say "birth" or "laughter" or "sunset" because of memories which I associate with these particular words....

Beautiful is what these things are, but they are not "beautiful" apart from my experience of them.

It occurs to me that the words we choose as the "most beautiful" are a mirror into our very soul.


We all experience things based upon "within the course of personal, human events", and even if a majority consensus can be reached, it cannot truthfully/accurately define beauty. I believe we'd all be alot better off if it was that easy... yet rather bored. Of course the concept is a purely subjective one, but when the subject is presented as a mirror, one must present the shape of the mirror as subjective, as well. I've not experienced "birth" (other than my own) but I'd agree, it is a beautiful thing... but I base that on the befores and afters. Laughter can be beautiful but when occurring with a certain deviousness... not so beautiful (per se) anymore... and "sunsets".... OK, you got me there!

I could say that your choice of "birth", "laughter" and "sunset" as beautiful things reflect a soul that is "death", "sorrow" and "sunrise" but I know not enough about the person that is you to make any *sense of it.

Is the beholder, then, solely responsible for beauty, or does it take at least one other to acknowlege *it?

Posted By: plutarch Re: Red sails in the... - 11/28/04 07:34 PM
your choice of "birth", "laughter" and "sunset" as beautiful things reflect a soul that is "death", "sorrow" and "sunrise"

Sounds very Orwellian, musick, as in "War is Peace".

I would have thought the more obvious interpretation is the concommitant, not the converse.

If one believes in epiphanies, it doesn't take the presence of another to experience singular beauty, even in the most ordinary of things.



Posted By: Wordwind Re: The most beautiful word in English - 11/28/04 10:56 PM
Velvet.

Just my first, instantaneous response when I read your thread starter, AnnaS.

Posted By: Jackie Re: The most beautiful word in English - 11/29/04 02:59 PM
I agree with Faldage--I think the writer is referring to the concept the word stands for, not the word itself. In this sense, I strongly disagree with 'birth'--it's nasty and disgusting. (I'd have been a good candidate to be an adoptive mom.) Ew.
If we're talking about sound, I'd still vote for mellifluous. We had a thread or two here some time ago on this kind of thing.
If we're talking about the way a word looks, my first thought was 'mellow' because it is tall only in the middle; but I think most palindromes would be better, as they are perfectly balanced.

Posted By: plutarch Re: The most beautiful word in English - 11/29/04 04:53 PM
I strongly disagree with 'birth'

Sometimes there is more beauty in the eye of a bystander than there is in the eye of a beholder.

Women bear the weight of birth ... so true.

For a man the bounty comes as a gift ... without strings attached.

Posted By: Zed Re: The most beautiful word in English - 11/30/04 12:30 AM
Gossamer. I like the sound as well as the concept. It's not onomatopoeia ( is that correct? I tried spell check but it gave me Onondaga ) because it does not describe a sound but to me it sounds like what it describes. Firmer outlines, g and r, with just a susseration (sp) in between. Is there a word for this effect? (other than silly)
Corruscate is another one with it's flat surfaces of vowel alternating with the hard consonant edges.

Posted By: TEd Remington Ice capades - 11/30/04 01:17 PM
I went many years ago to an ice capades show that was performed outdoors on the shore of frozen Lake Michigan. Unfortunately all the backup singers got too close together and fell through. Just another example of corruscating on thin ice.

Posted By: Jackie Re: Ice capades - 11/30/04 01:41 PM
Oh, Ted!! Your puns coruscate (sense 2) through this Board.
cor·us·cate (kôr'ə-skāt', kŏr'-)
intr.v., -cat·ed, -cat·ing, -cates.
1. To give forth flashes of light; sparkle and glitter: diamonds coruscating in the candlelight.
2. To exhibit sparkling virtuosity: a flutist whose music coruscated throughout the concert hall.
[Latin coruscāre, coruscāt-, to flash.]
(Gurunet)

Zed, I love your examples! Hadn't thought of things that way, but it works.


Posted By: dxb Re: Ice capades - 12/01/04 12:56 PM
"The most beautiful sound I ever heard
All the beautiful sounds of the world in a single word -
Maria ...

"Suddenly I found How wonderful a sound Can be -
Maria -
Say it loud and there's music playing,
Say it soft and it's almost like praying."

Truth is nothing - perception is everything.

Posted By: plutarch Re: Ice capades - 12/01/04 01:19 PM
all the backup singers got too close together and fell through. Just another example of corruscating on thin ice

It's also an example of choruscating on thin ice, TEd Rem.


Posted By: dxb Re: Ice capades - 12/01/04 05:01 PM
TEd, it seems your touch was too subtle.

Posted By: plutarch Re: Ice capades - 12/01/04 08:21 PM
it seems your touch was too subtle

I wasn't quite sure if he was playing on both ends of the word. It seems he was.

Very nice, TEd Rem.


Posted By: AniamL Most beautiful word - 12/02/04 04:10 AM
Something about the word "striated" strikes me (or stripes me, maybe) as a pretty word... but as for my favorite word, that would have to be "crwth". Any of you have distinct favorite words?


Some people say camping is boring. I say it's in tents.
Posted By: Faldage Re: Most beautiful word - 12/02/04 11:43 AM
I've always liked minimum just for the hemiola of typing it. Hemiola, there's another nice word.

Posted By: Jackie Re: in tents - 12/02/04 02:37 PM
A Native American went to his psychiatrist:
"Doctor, Doctor--I think I'm a wigwam! No, a teepee. No! A wigwam!"
The doctor replied:
"You don't have a real problem; you're just too tense."
***********************************************************

Hemiola, yes! (Hi, eta! ) Where did it come from, though? Hemi means half, right? I just tried looking up -ola and found that it doesn't mean anything; then I tried iola, and it's just a name. Struck out with ola (leaf or strip from a leaf of the talipot palm used in India for writing paper) and Ola ('nother name), too.

Posted By: Buffalo Shrdlu Re: in tents - 12/02/04 03:06 PM
hi Jackie!

this is what I found at M-W via OneLook:

Main Entry: hemi·o·la
Pronunciation: "he-mE-'O-l&
Function: noun
Etymology: Late Latin hemiolia, from Greek hEmiolia ratio of one and a half to one, from hEmi- + holos whole -- more at SAFE
: a musical rhythmic alteration in which six equal notes may be heard as two groups of three or three groups of two


so you got the half thing right. or is that half right?

Posted By: tsuwm hemiola - 12/02/04 03:11 PM
and what does all that have to do with the word minimum??

Posted By: AnnaStrophic Re: hemiola - 12/02/04 03:54 PM
Try typing minimum a couple of times. I think the idea is you're supposed to hear a hemiola in your keyboard.

-don't shoot me, I'm just the translator

Posted By: plutarch Re: The most beautiful word in English - 12/02/04 06:16 PM
blog

Not the "most beautiful", but the most "sought out".

Extract from:

'Blog' Most Popular Word on Web Dictionary
Chicago Tribune, December 1, 2004

"Blog" began appearing in newspapers and magazines in 1999, according to the publisher's records. Merriam's lexicographers suspect the prominence blogs attained during the presidential campaigns and conventions this year sent people scrambling for a definition.

"It does sometimes happen that words in the headlines so grab people's attention that they become a most-frequently-looked-up word," said John M. Morse, president and publisher of Springfield-based Merriam-Webster.

Right behind "blog" in popularity on Merriam's year-end list were "incumbent" and "electoral." Other words on the list touched on the war in Iraq, storms, bicycle races and even the emergence of insects on a 17-year cycle: In fourth place was "insurgent," followed by "hurricane," "cicada" and "peloton". The eighth and ninth spots were taken by "partisan" and "sovereignty."

For full story, go to:

http://www.chicagotribune.com/technology/sns-ap-dictionary-top-words,1,2657596.story?coll=chi-news-hed

"peloton" ??? [7th position]

Aha! Not an insect invasion, but the Tour de France.

Main Entry: peloton
Definition: in cycling, a densely packed group of riders who stay together for mutual advantage
Etymology: French `ball, heap'

http://www.capture-the-peloton.com/


Posted By: musick Re: in tents - 12/02/04 06:23 PM
A ratio of 1 1/2 to 1 is the same as a ratio of 3 to 2 (seasonally known as "ring ding-a-ling") which really is the same as a ratio of 6 to 4.

The ratio of 3 to 4 (otherwise known as "eat your g*d damn spinach") is also called a hemiola as musicians like to chop up the world into pieces... but *claim they aren't.

Posted By: Faldage Re: hemiola - 12/02/04 11:19 PM
ROW  LETTER  FINGER

BOT M MIDDLE
TOP I MIDDLE
BOT N INDEX
TOP I MIDDLE
BOT M MIDDLE
TOP U INDEX
BOT M MIDDLE

Posted By: Zed Re: The most beautiful word in English - 12/02/04 11:43 PM
Main Entry: peloton
Definition: in cycling, a densely packed group of riders who stay together for mutual advantage
Etymology: French `ball, heap'

If I tried to ride in a densely packed group we would definitely wind up in a heap.


Posted By: AniamL Re: hemiola - 12/03/04 01:21 AM
Very, very interesting. So it can be grouped in threes by noticing the finger used, and it can be grouped in twos by noticing the row. I like it.


Some people say camping is boring. I say it's in tents.
Posted By: TEd Remington M finger - 12/03/04 12:57 PM
Faldo:

While you may use your middle finger to type an m, the correct finger to use is the right index finger:

http://www.crews.org/curriculum/ex/compsci/keyboarding/questions.htm#keyboard

Posted By: plutarch Re: The most beautiful word in English - 12/03/04 08:59 PM
If I tried to ride in a densely packed group we would definitely wind up in a heap

It's not so bad if you end up on top of the heap, Zed ... without the peloton on top of you.

[In Europe, that would be a "pelotonne", I assume.]



Posted By: Faldage Re: M finger - 12/03/04 10:23 PM
the correct finger to use is the right index finger

See, just goes to show. Question Authority, or else.

Posted By: tsuwm Re: peloton - 12/03/04 10:29 PM
from French, peloton, platoon, ball, from Middle French, ball

Posted By: Dgeigh Re: peloton - 12/05/04 03:06 AM
"peloton" ??? [7th position]

I’m probably stating the painfully obvious here, but, no doubt, ‘peloton’ came in seventh due to the fact that Lance Armstrong, an American, won the Tour de France (TdF) for a sixth time, breaking the standing record of five wins held by Jacques Anquetil, Eddy Merckx, Bernard Hinault, and Miguel Induráin. Since professional cycling is not valued highly by the majority of Americans, most are not familiar with cycling’s terms. Armstrong’s fifth win was big, but his attempt at a sixth win pushed professional cycling into the consciousness of more Americans than ever before: thus the interest in the word ‘peloton.’


Definition: in cycling, a densely packed group of riders who stay together for mutual advantage

'Peloton' is indeed “a densely packed group of riders who stay together for mutual advantage.” The word, however, is not used only to refer to the riders of the TdF. In the English-speaking cycling world, ‘peloton’ is used to describe riders grouped together in any professional road race. Amateur cyclists also use the word to refer to any large group of cyclist riding together in training rides, rallies, or races.

‘Pro peloton’ refers to all professional road cyclists, especially those who race in Europe, whether they are racing at the time or not.


If I tried to ride in a densely packed group we would definitely wind up in a heap.

Riding in a peloton can indeed be unnerving, especially if there are a bunch of beginners in it. Riding in a peloton of experienced cyclists is actually fairly comfortable. That’s not to say, however, if one rider goes down, especially at the front, he or she won’t take the majority of the peloton down too. If you are unlucky enough to be in the middle of a fast group, and someone up front goes down, there is almost nothing you can do to avoid wrecking – and bikes don’t have crumple zones. Bones seem to crumple (so to speak) fairly easily though.


Posted By: plutarch Re: peloton - 12/05/04 12:07 PM
If you are unlucky enough to be in the middle of a fast group, and someone up front goes down, there is almost nothing you can do to avoid wrecking

Wonder what the advantage is of riding in a peloton, Dgeigh?

There can't be much of a slip stream effect as there is in car racing because the peloton is not a solid mass at the leading edge of the wedge.

No doubt, it is harder to pass a peloton than a single cyclist, but, on the other hand, if you are inside the peloton it's harder to get out of it to break away. I take it this latter consideration is not really a problem because the peloton is actually a 'team' and they would cooperate with anyone inside the 'heap' wishing to break out.

Perhaps it is just moral support or pacing control. Long distance runners run with friendly pacers to keep them on their mark. Interesting phenomenon suggestive of Canadian Geese flying in a "V", in any event.

Aha! Here we have the answer -- not a "V", but an "X":

"Peloton Strategy: "X" marks the spot"

http://www.active.com/story.cfm?story_id=9720

Posted By: TEd Remington Slip stream effect - 12/05/04 01:24 PM
Actually it is the slip stream effect. I've never actually ridden in a peloton, but I have ridden many a mile with other riders and indeed it is easier to pedal when tailgating another rider than it is to pedal while riding alone.

I used to ride with a pretty lady named Glenna, and while I did my share of infront miles it was a lot more fun to be riding right behind her. Awesome view!

And apparently the effect is much greater in a peloton. I have carefully watched closed course races and seen that in the peloton there is a constant flow of riders from the back to the front of the pack. Those at the front get tired and drop all the way to the back, so everyone gets a turn in the lead.

The TdF is actually a team event with individual rider prizes; one of the grand strategies is for a team to "protect" its strongest rider by forming a peloton in front of him and letting him preserve his strength for the dash to the finish line.

Posted By: plutarch Re: Slip stream effect - 12/05/04 01:34 PM
I used to ride with a pretty lady named Glenna, and ... it was a lot more fun to be riding right behind her. Awesome view!

It gives a whole new meaning to the term "tail-gating", TEd Tem.

I always thought bicycle racing was all blood, sweat and gears. But, in mixed company, it can be all about the view.

It's not how you race, but how you make out at the finish line.

There must have been more of a fight for Glenna's tail position than there was for the lead.

Glenna obviously had a leg up on the rest of the field. And more than a leg, I suspect.

This sounds more like a peeloton than a peloton to me, TEd Rem.

As long as Glenna keeps her eyes peeled on the road ahead, everyone else can keep their eyes peeled on her rear.

BTW this reminds me, TEd Rem, that the most beautiful things in life are not words, much as I admire words, but the things which we sense, through sight, and sound, and smell and touch, which excite our imaginations, and, in turn, our words.

Posted By: plutarch Re: Slip stream effect - 12/05/04 02:21 PM
As long as Glenna keeps her eyes peeled on the road ahead ...

Fortunately, there is a serious side to this ascertainment:

[Q] From Mark Kleiman: “Can you enlighten me on the origin of the expression keep your eyes peeled or pealed?”
[A] It’s spelt peeled, as in peeling an apple. It derives from an old verb pill, “to plunder”, which is the root of our modern word pillage. It came to us from the Latin root pilare, meaning “to take the hair off, pluck” (closely connected with our depilate), but which also had the figurative meaning of “plunder, cheat”, almost exactly the same as the figurative meaning of our modern verbs fleece or pluck. From about the 17th century on, pill was commonly spelt peel and took on the sense of “to remove or strip” in the weakened sense of removing an outer covering, such as a fruit. The figurative sense of keeping alert, by removing any covering of the eye that might impede vision, seems to have appeared in the US about 1850."

http://www.worldwidewords.org/qa/qa-kee1.htm


Posted By: themilum Re: Slip stream effect - 12/05/04 03:23 PM
To me Plutarch, the analogy of peeled oranges and eyes is glaringly apparent. But, of course, some folks need the high authority of the WorldWideWeb to transform the obvious into hard fact.

Now...stop avoiding your indiscretions. You and TEd both know that you have turned a serious discussion about "words" into a preadolescent discussion dealing with sex, viz. the female's "rear end". Well, I guess boys will be boys, but let me offer a little rhyme to get this thread back on its bicycle track...

I used to ride behind a nice lady named Glenna,
But great was my desire to ride right between 'er
On a Id-ical day
In a sublimal way
I married a girl from Verbeena named Edwina.


So, Plutarch, see how easy to take the high road if
one's head is not in the gutter.










Posted By: plutarch Re: Slip stream effect - 12/05/04 03:41 PM
a female's "rear end"

A "female's rear end" can be a most admirable thing, themilum, and not only to a "preadolescent".

Is it salacious to frolic with the forces of nature? I hope not.

If Glenna rode high in the saddle, she may have been riding for more than the finish line herself.

In any case, I managed to turn my attention to more scholarly investigations, and you steered me back to the rear of the peloton.

You are a very cunning linguist, themilum.



Posted By: themilum Re: Slip stream effect - 12/05/04 04:33 PM
Now that, Plutarch, is funny.



Posted By: plutarch Re: Slip stream effect - 12/05/04 04:55 PM
Now that, Plutarch, is funny.

And I didn't even stick a smiley on the end of it, themilum. I was hoping it might go over the peloton.

Looks like you've up-ended me again.

Goes to prove what Dgeigh said. There's no "crumble zone" in a peloton.

Needless to say, if you have to crash in a peloton, you're a lot better off with someone like Glenna in the lead. [Some in the rear might even be forgiven if they forget to brake.]

Posted By: AniamL Re: Slip stream effect - 12/06/04 01:34 AM
So why do Canadian geese travel in a V, rather than in a peloton? I believe that by traveling in a V they use the same concept of aerodynamics that bikers do, but wouldn't it be more efficient if they used the same formation, this peloton, as bikers as well?


Some people say camping is boring. I say it's in tents.
Posted By: Jackie Re: Slip stream effect - 12/06/04 02:50 AM
A U of M site says: In flight, flocks form large V's or diagonally straight lines. This is because each bird doesn't fly directly behind the others, but off to an angle. This minimizes drag on each individual bird, allowing them to take advantage of the slipstream created by the bird in front of them.
http://animaldiversity.ummz.umich.edu/site/accounts/information/Branta_canadensis.html
I honestly don't know whether straight line or V-formation makes for better aerodynamics, but I do know that if bicyclists tried to ride in a vee they'd be very limited in numbers, because roadways aren't as wide as the sky!

Posted By: AniamL Re: Slip stream effect - 12/06/04 03:25 AM
That's a good point. I'm sure the bicyclists would rather settle for slightly less efficient aerodynamics than take turns riding off the road because of a lack of space.


Some people say camping is boring. I say it's in tents.
Posted By: Buffalo Shrdlu Re: Slip slidin' away - 12/06/04 05:33 PM
I read it as if the X formation was within the larger peloton. a team would use the X to best take advantage of the larger formation.

Posted By: sjmaxq Re: Slip slidin' away - 12/06/04 06:08 PM
Since every rider in the peloton gets credited the same time, where's the advantage in fancy formation work within it?

Posted By: Buffalo Shrdlu Re: Slip slidin' away - 12/06/04 06:58 PM
A common mistake made by many road racing teams is that team members sometimes tend to clump together in one spot in the peloton.

This occurs from the lower amateur categories all the way to the top Euro pros, and often causes entire teams to be taken out of the event by a crash, or a split in the field.

A good way to approach positioning in the group is to have the team members spread out into an "X" formation (roughly).

The riders at the back of the X should still be in the front half of the peloton. They are in position to be the "eyes" of the group. If they see a pending attack or a dangerous rival preparing for a move, they can call or radio to the other team members.

The riders at the front of the X are in position to cover or attack. They should be near the front, but not at the front, so they are not working unnecessarily in the wind. Since most attacks come from a side and near the front, they will be perfectly placed to go with a break, neutralize an aggressor or make an attack.

The "protected" riders of the team should be in the middle (but still in the front half) of the group where they are sheltered from any wind. When the time is right, they can position themselves for the finish or a decisive attack.


from plu's link
Posted By: sjmaxq Re: Slip slidin' away - 12/06/04 09:08 PM
Thanks, etaoin.

Posted By: Dgeigh Re: Slip slidin' away - 12/07/04 12:43 AM
In situations where there are as little as two riders, drafting behind another rider allows the rider doing the drafting to conserve around 25 percent of his or her energy.

In a “paceline”, with three or more riders, each rider can take turns “pulling” at the front of the paceline for shorter periods of time before rotating to the back of the paceline, which allows all of the riders in the paceline to conserve up to 30 percent of their energy. The more riders in the paceline, the more energy everyone can conserve.

In a peloton, a rider will have much more of a chance to “sit in”, and not do any work pulling at the front. If a rider does no work at all, he or she can conserve 45 percent or more of his or her energy. Sitting in does not apply to the single rider only. Whole teams can sit in, if they chose to do so, which would give them a greater reserve of energy to launch an attack, or just conserve energy for a harder upcoming stage.

Of course, if you are in a team that has to chase down a “breakaway”, you have no choice but to go the front of the peloton and work like a madperson.

I do know that if bicyclists tried to ride in a vee they'd be very limited in numbers, because roadways aren't as wide as the sky!

If fact, there are times when riders ride in what one might visualize as a half-vee formation, and angle diagonally across the road. It is called forming, or riding in, an echelon. This is done when the wind is either perpendicular to the riders’ direction of travel, or coming at them at an angle. Since, as Jackie writes, “they'd be very limited in numbers because roadways aren't as wide as the sky” the peloton will usually break up into several echelons. If a team is trying to protect one of its rider’s placement on the General Classification (GC), they had better make sure to get him or her into the first echelon, because the rear echelons usually get “gapped” quite badly, and sometimes “dropped” altogether.


an "X" formation

Digressing from the benefits of drafting, and delving into strategy and tactics, the X formation would indeed allow a team to respond to many different situations. That’s not to say, however, that a team should always ride in an X formation. Different goals require different formations. In some situations, formations are moot. If a team, or rider, attacks with enough energy, the peloton can be split and fragmented, a breakaway group can be fragmented, and riders can “crack” and get dropped off of the back. If riders can’t “keep the wheel” of someone in front of them, i.e. draft, and wind up getting dropped, they certainly can’t take part in a formation.


Posted By: Buffalo Shrdlu Re: Slip slidin' away - 12/07/04 12:58 AM
and thanks for that, J! good stuff. very interesting.

Posted By: sjmaxq Re: Slip slidin' away - 12/07/04 01:01 AM
Thanks to you both. I now have enough to start my magnum opus: "Everything you could never really be bothered knowing about cycling, but found out anyway".

Posted By: Buffalo Shrdlu Re: Slip slidin' away - 12/07/04 01:07 AM
heh. well, I can only take credit for copying from plu's link... I think J knows what he's talking about.

Posted By: plutarch Re: Slip stream effect - 12/07/04 12:27 PM
I used to ride with a pretty lady named Glenna, and ... it was a lot more fun to be riding right behind her

There once was a cyclist voluptuous
Whose tactics were always victorious
She never changed gear
As men dropped to her rear
And she won every race in a rumpus
Posted By: themilum Re: Slip stream effect - 12/07/04 11:17 PM
I must say, Mister Plutarch, your rump poem is indicative of rare talent. Bravo!

(Maybe change "victorious" to "triumphus" for a closer rhyme)

Only a fool would dare challenge such a brilliant, but low genius, so I thought about it briefly and then decided to offer some observations about the mechanics of the peloton instead.

(1) The analogy of the V pattern of migrating geese is limited in explaining the nature of the peloton.
Lateral vision is used by geese in correcting errant navigation and in finding feed and rest sites. Geese can't peloton because they would bump into the rump of the goose flying directly ahead; unlike TEd Remington the eyes of geese are on the sides of their head.

(2) Collective Angular Momentum: ( Be advised, this idea is a bit exotic.) Draw these associations...

__(a) Cyclists moving in a peloton can functionally be thought of as having the physical dynamics of a single unit.
__(b) When a cyclist in a surge breaks out from the peloton a dissapportionate amount of the angular momentum of the unit is transfered to the cyclist breaking away, ergo, the slingshot. (This makes sense in concept)
__(c) As well, the larger the peloton the lesser the disturbance of the aerodynamics by the loss of a single biker.

(3) Spiders. The most agressive male spider almost always wins in courtship battles with other males, and so wins the dubious honor of mating with the female, "dubious" because sometimes, he afterwards becomes her meal.
And like spider like human, it is usually the most aggressive male who wins the woman, money or fame.
Man is, like it or not, a social animal. So nice it is to ride along in the ease and comfort of the peloton, perhaps or not, watching the pleasant rump in view just ahead...but then - out of the blue - some malcontent, some rude iconoclast, breaks away from the confort of the peloton and arrogantly pedals ahead.

On occasion (but rarely) indignation and perseverance will overtake this bastard of egoism (but rarely).
But almost always, the rude bastard wins.
As he should.

This is the real reason for the peloton.

Get it?

Posted By: plutarch adVantage - 12/08/04 12:20 PM
re "rump poem" - "brilliant, but low genius"

Thanks for the 'half-ass' compliment, themilum. I guess that makes me the butt of praise.

re "Get it?". Yes, I do get it. Some very penetrating insights there.

The peloton is a very useful model for explaining a lot of things.

The peleton exists solely for the purpose of solidifying and protecting the advantage of those who have claimed the lead.

Canadian Geese fly in a "V" rather than a peloton because their motives are less complicated than ours. They are only focused on arriving at their destination as effortlessly as possible.

Geese flying in formation have no strategies or even interest in fending off a Goose, flying outside the formation, from arriving at the destination before they do.

There is food and sunshine enough for all when they get there, regardless of which Goose or which formation arrives first.

Would that life was so sweetly simple and intelligent for us humans.

We fight for territory even when there is a surplus of territory for everyone.

How often, for instance, do we turn territory into terrortory?

The peleton is a rare bird unknown to birds.
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