Wordsmith.org

Verb this

Posted By: Faldage

Verb this - 02/23/04 08:16 PM

http://www.globeandmail.com/servlet/ArticleNews/TPStory/LAC/20040220/FACTS20/

And remember, orient is a verbed noun, orientate has spent its entire English language existence as a verb.

Posted By: Capfka

Re: Verb this - 02/24/04 01:00 PM

Good article, David. And, yes, I find orientate makes a marvellous verb. Orient is east of me ...

Posted By: Buffalo Shrdlu

Re: Verb this - 02/24/04 01:03 PM

orientate makes a marvellous verb

run away!

Posted By: Capfka

Re: Verb this - 02/24/04 01:08 PM

Nope! Orientate is a ditch to die in ...

Posted By: Faldage

Re: Verb this - 02/24/04 01:10 PM

I'm waiting patiently for the back formation 'orientatation.'

Posted By: Capfka

Re: Verb this - 02/24/04 01:14 PM

I'm sure that someone will oblige. Be patient!

Posted By: jheem

needing to ort oneself - 02/24/04 01:23 PM

Orient is from the present participle oriens 'rising' from the deponent verb orior, the past particple of which is ortus. So, the verb should be ort and the noun should be ortion. But that never happened, so we have to settle for the strange word orientate and its noun orientation. If you don't accept one, you shouldn't accept the other. Sure, it violates the grammar of Latin, but then so does the word bus from omnibus.

Posted By: Jackie

Re: Verb this - 02/24/04 05:00 PM

the strange word orientate A--HA! So there, CK--put that in your pipe and smoke it!

Posted By: wsieber

Re: needing to ort oneself - 02/25/04 02:04 PM

it violates the grammar of Latin
a living language violating a dead one - is that necrophilia?

Posted By: Wordwind

Re: needing to ort oneself - 02/25/04 02:29 PM

Would that verb form be 'necrophiliate'?

Faldo, let's just get as gritty-grating as possible and propose the verb orientationize

Posted By: jheem

Re: needing to ort oneself - 02/25/04 02:51 PM

is that necrophilia?

Not all violations are out of love, but in this case, perhaps.

Posted By: jheem

Re: needing to ort oneself - 02/25/04 02:53 PM

orientationize

I also propose orientify, or should that be ortify oneself?

Posted By: inselpeter

Re: needing to ort oneself - 02/25/04 05:23 PM

<<not all violations are out of love>>

Er, wha?

Posted By: Capfka

Re: needing to ort oneself - 02/26/04 08:58 AM

Then there's the process of orientating - orientationalise!

And, come to think of it, the noun describing the outcome of the process - orientationalisation

Then there's the belief system that will grow up out of all of this - orientationalisationism

And the study of implementation of the new religious fad - orientationalistics!

Posted By: dxb

Re: needing to ort oneself - 02/26/04 11:24 AM

Not forgetting those who actively oppose the whole concept, the antiorientationalisationists and their supporters the proantiorientationalisationists.

Those who simply rubbish the belief system are, of course, the dissorientationalisationists.

Posted By: Jackie

Re: needing to ort oneself - 02/26/04 12:36 PM

[head-spinning e]

Posted By: Buffalo Shrdlu

Re: needing to ort oneself - 02/26/04 01:08 PM

I think I hurt something when I occidentally fell over laughing...

Posted By: wsieber

Re: needing to ort oneself - 02/26/04 01:17 PM

[head-spinning e]
Indeed, we can only hope ex oriente lux


Posted By: jheem

Re: needing to ort oneself - 02/26/04 01:59 PM

Er, wha?

Necrophilia, literally 'love of corpses', from the Greek. I was talking about violating grammar, which is a different thing altogether from violating corpses.

Posted By: Capfka

Re: needing to ort oneself - 02/26/04 05:47 PM

Oh, I dunno. We seem to deal to Latin pretty much. And it's dead, even though it bloody well won't finally lie down!

Come to think of it, does anyone have a wooden stake or a box of silver bullets with "Et tu awadtalke" engraved on them? [Note that I'm assuming that one Awadtalker in Latin (stealing the whole word, not its parts) is sec. dec. masc., or awadtalkus -i m]

Posted By: jheem

(s)talking Latin - 02/26/04 06:07 PM

And [Latin]'s dead, even though it bloody well won't finally lie down!

I think of Latin as a very old friend, reports of whose death have been much exagerated. Words like bus for omnibus and orientate for orient don't really bother me that much. The reason I dragged Latin into it, is because there's usually some appeal made to the way the words would be formed in the language from which they are borrowed. &c., &c.

As for AwadTalker in Latin, hmm, not sure, but how about: AwadTalkitor? Nah, too strange a hybrid.

Posted By: sjmaxq

Re: needing to ort oneself - 02/26/04 06:32 PM

Well, if finding the correct declension for awadtalk, capfka, how about the Latin for ayleur?

Posted By: Capfka

Re: needing to ort oneself - 02/26/04 09:17 PM

Sounds pretty fourth to me, Max, from ayleus -us m professional bullshitter.

Latin is dead, jheem, even though the corpse keeps sitting up and asking for a drink during the funeral. If it's an old friend of yours, then I suggest you do the decent thing and nail the coffin lid down and let us get on with the inhumation.

A language which isn't spoken on a daily basis by anyone (except for a few nutcases in southern Europe who don't reproduce anyway, I guess), is dead, d-e-a-d. Genetically our language has inherited many of its traits as have lots of others, but that doesn't mean it hasn't shuffled of its mortal coil. Look at the blue tinge to the skin. Notice how it isn't breathing. Look at the garrotte around its neck (it had better still be there; it was the best piano-wire that money could buy).

Dead. Finito. Kaput.

Posted By: AnnaStrophic

I don't get it, Pfranz - 02/26/04 09:30 PM

You like playing around with Latin. You know more about the grammar than I do. OK, it's not spoken anymore (except among Catholic clerics as a lingua franca), but gee whiz! I'm glad we have it, like jheem said, it's an old friend. You vying for the position of assistant board curmudgeon or somethin'?

Posted By: jheem

tsk - 02/26/04 09:41 PM

OK, it's been buried. You can rest easy now, no undeed argots'll be coming round to disturb you. Now, where was I? Oh, yes, the word orientate. Just got birthed a minute or two ago. It's an English word that anglophones of a certain temper seem to disdain. Well, well, well. Can't have everthing.

Posted By: boronia

Re: Verb this - 02/27/04 01:11 AM

And now, back to verbing...
I was on the subway tonight and saw a poster for some menopause medication: "Trialed by doctors. Trusted by women." I certainly would have preferred "Tested by doctors." Then you'd get the (to my ear) very nice tested/trusted thing happening.

Posted By: Bingley

Re: Verb this - 02/27/04 04:48 AM

In reply to:

I was on the subway tonight and saw a poster


Am I the only one who on first reading this thought "Oh, who?" and "How did you recognise him/her?"?

Bingley

Posted By: Capfka

Re: I don't get it, Pfranz - 02/27/04 09:43 AM

Nope, ASp, I'm not being curmudgeonly, I'm simply being truthful and objective. I like the language and for a number of reasons. However we use and abuse Latin, on the whole, for its explanatory power in relation to English rather than for its own sake as a medium of communication. The language itself is now fixed in time; it cannot change "naturally" through usage and outside influences. In the end, knowledge of it will quietly melt and wither away with the inevitable effluxion of time ..

Posted By: jheem

the setting Sun - 02/27/04 01:02 PM

However we use and abuse Latin, on the whole, for its explanatory power in relation to English rather than for its own sake as a medium of communication.

I'd have to not agree with you. I was not trying to regulate the usage of or disparage the non-word-hood of orientate. I was just trying to show what the facts are in Latin, and what they are in English. Part of any explanation of a word's history, especially a loanword like orient, involves the language it was taken from. Once taken over though, it belongs to the borrowing language. I just pointed out that the word is different from others taken over from Latin, in that once it got into English it mutated in such a way that, while it appeared to be following the rules of Latin grammar, it was in fact breaking them. This is a common enough occurence, e.g., when people write virii instead of viruses. From a purely descriptive POV, both plurals exist in English, along with some others, and from a purely descriptive POV, no plural for the word virus exists in Latin. This has nothing to do with Latin's morbidity. It's just another amusing story in the history of English. I'm sorry if I seemed to imply that using orientate is somehow wrong. I don't think it is, nor would I try to explain its incorrect state by recourse to Latin grammar.

In the end, knowledge of it will quietly melt and wither away with the inevitable effluxion of time ..

Yes, as it will with all languages, English included, but that doesn't stop us from speaking it at the moment, or using it to explain things.

Posted By: inselpeter

Re: I don't get it, Pfranz - 02/27/04 01:58 PM

<<with the inevitable effluxion of time>>

Is a thing inevitable which is (already) ongoing? If latin is already 'efflucted,' is the memory of it an effluvium? Does anyone *use* 'effluvium' who isn't Faulkner?

Posted By: Capfka

Re: I don't get it, Pfranz - 02/27/04 03:01 PM

Well ... you do, Insel! I just happen to like the word effluxion. And yes, both of them come from the same Latin root ...

Oh, and jheem, I wasn't commenting on orient/orientate at all in relation to killing off Latin! I think that premeditated linguicide hath its own rewards.

Posted By: tsuwm

Re: effluxion - 02/27/04 03:37 PM

for those who might be interested in actually using effluxion, it usually denotes flowing out (of liquids), or passing away (of time).

Posted By: Buffalo Shrdlu

Re: effluxion - 02/27/04 03:39 PM

thank you, your Grand Effulgency!

Posted By: maahey

Re: effluxion - 02/27/04 06:08 PM

Why this suffix? Won't simple old 'efflux' do?

orientationize

orientalate

Faldage, which is the worst of the lot?





Posted By: Faldage

Re: effluxion - 02/27/04 06:21 PM

Orientificatationalize.

Posted By: Capfka

Re: effluxion - 02/27/04 06:22 PM

in actually using effluxion, it usually denotes flowing out (of liquids), or passing away (of time).


Well, it was time (as stated directly in my post if you care to re-read it, your OED and bar-ship), then it has effluxed (efflucted?) most correctly. I would have thought.

Posted By: maahey

Re: effluxion - 02/27/04 06:23 PM

It certainly wins!

Posted By: jheem

anatolian form-learning - 02/27/04 06:26 PM

Why not eastmakingness?

Posted By: maahey

Re: anatolian form-learning - 02/27/04 06:31 PM

I know it is rather late in the day to be asking this: But, what is the etymology of the VERB orient?

Posted By: jheem

Re: anatolian form-learning - 02/27/04 06:34 PM

Look back at my first posting in this thread. Back a coupla days 'go.

Posted By: Buffalo Shrdlu

Re: orientatinizing ourselves... - 02/27/04 06:35 PM

way back on Tuesday from our esteemed jheem:

Orient is from the present participle oriens 'rising' from the deponent verb orior, the past particple of which is ortus. So, the verb should be ort and the noun should be ortion.



Posted By: Faldage

Re: orientatinizing ourselves... - 02/27/04 06:38 PM

According to the COED the earliest noun citation antedates the first verb citing.

Posted By: maahey

Re: orientatinizing ourselves... - 02/27/04 06:39 PM

Yes, but what I am trying to say is, that etymology works for the noun. Why should the east figure in a word that means align/guide

eta, thanks!
EDIT:
Just caught orientatinizing; IMO, a close contender!

Posted By: Faldage

Re: orientatinizing ourselves... - 02/27/04 06:42 PM

Its earliest definition is 'to arrange so as to face east' or summat like that.

Posted By: jheem

Re: orientatinizing ourselves... - 02/27/04 06:44 PM

It makes sense that orient would come into English as a noun, and then later be turned into a verb (first with zero-suffixation and then with the anomolous -ate ending). This reminds me of a whole slew (not slough) of French verbs that were borrowed into German that end with -ieren from Fr -ir and German -en: double infinitival endings.

Posted By: maahey

Re: orientatinizing ourselves... - 02/27/04 06:45 PM

Aah! Thanks Faldage!

Posted By: tsuwm

Re: you would have thought - 02/27/04 07:38 PM

Capf', my (knee-jerk) reaction was due to "If latin is already 'efflucted'", (which rather differs from "If Latin has efflucted in time"), not to your previous; if you follow.

Posted By: Capfka

Re: you would have thought - 02/27/04 08:26 PM

A likely story ...

Posted By: grapho

Re: needing to ort oneself - 02/28/04 06:35 PM

a living language violating a dead one

Latin isn't dead. It's just buried in modern english.

© 2017 Wordsmith.org