I just want to relay something that was said by a student this morning in class. His class had earned a music party. The boys' team had earned most points for correct reponses so they will bring the CDs we'll play for the 20-minute party. They can bring whatever selection they want as long as the selection has no profanity or subject-matter inappropriate for 5th grade school children to hear about. Parents sign a release form.
One boy told me while getting ready to leave, "There's no good music to bring here next week."
I asked, "Why not?"
He said, "Because all the good music has cuss words."
There's a world of commentary in his take on popular music. In his point of view, there is no popular music that is 'good' out there that is without 'cuss words.' I'm not suggesting at all that he thinks 'cuss words' are an essential characteristic of good music. But I am sorrowed to have heard his observation that all the 'good music' that's out there (e.g., music with perhaps interesting rhythms, instrumentation, etc.) happens to have 'cuss words' in it as a sideline.
Too sad. Just this one boy's view whether it's reflective of his friends' views or not. Just too sad.
one view is that this is just reflective of the extremes that today's younger generation has to go to in order to be unique. (see tattoos, body piercing, etc.)
(personal aside: when I were a lad, the mother of a good friend threw out his new Kingston Trio LP; one song offended her -- something along the lines of "don't give a damn about a greenback dollar".)
http://www.geocities.com/Nashville/Stage/5476/A_Artists/Axton_Hoyt/greenbackdollar.html
I've noted the same problems when trying to choose music for Friday night Taekwondo classes. Any student is allowed to bring music they like, because the Friday class is more casual. If the group doesn't like one CD, we try another. But the CDs can't have swear words and that makes it very hard to choose something, even from our collection. And we're not "young punks" any more. I'm especially annoyed that we can't introduce this group to the great fun of ska music, because all our CDs have one or two songs with a swear in it. I keep meaning to make a mix CD of swear-free songs, but haven't had time yet.
Remember, Rhett Butler's, "And, frankly, my dear, I don't give a damn!", rocked the sensibilities of movie-goers in 1939. Not a real long time ago. And, of course, Scarlett replied, "Neither do I...and don't call me Frankly!"
Scarlett replied, "Neither do I...and don't call me Frankly!"That musta been in the Leslie Nielson re-make.
--------
Someday there will be no cuss words left... but that'll be the same day we all speak the same language.
Personally, I think we all do already, but not enough are taught to *listen to each other.
>one view is that this is just reflective of the extremes that today's younger generation has to go to in order to be unique. (see tattoos, body piercing, etc.)<
AMEN! And just what is the next generation going to have to do to establish themselves? And the one after that....and so one???? I know it can get worse than it is now.....but geez, Im-a-feared for all of humanity!
My son comes out of his room the other day, with 6 safety pins across the front of his perfectly good, not torn t-shirt. Now in "my day" we used safety pins to secure torn clothing, and we hoped no one noticed......
>And just what is the next generation going to have to do to establish themselves?
believe me, you really don't want to know...
re:And just what is the next generation going to have to do to establish themselves?
The pendulum swings.. and we will find our selves with super conservative grandchildren! In the 1920's things got loosey-goosey-- in the fifties, thing were all straight laced again.. they started to change in the mid 1960's, and parents were agast at their children..and their behavior..
in one letter in an dear abby/agony aunt collumn, (it was in the 'brin'tel breif',a column in the Forward, a yiddish language paper) an elderly couple didn't know what to do... there children (now in their early, mid and late forties) wanted to know their parent 'wedding' date, so they could plan a 50th wedding anniversary party..
the problem was, they had never married! and what's more were too embarassed to explain this to their children,, since one of their children was in a dispute with a grandchild,who was living with out the blessing of wedlock, which was making the parents very upset! what goes around comes around!
My daughter, is more more politically conserative than i am, and my father, while only a rockerfeller republican* in many ways was still much more conservative than i am!
the northest, and NY in particular were home to the most liberal members of the republican party, and while they didn't dominate, they did have alot of influence. since nelson was then governern of NY, and a powerful influence, this part of the party got called 'rockerfeller republicans'. today, the republican party is extremely right-wing, and the NY/rockerfeller republican influence is unfelt.
Two words: Lenny Bruce.
A big part of Bruce's introduction of profanity into his comedy material was the self-professed theory (as stated in his biography, but I can't find the quote), that through the use of constant repetiton these words will eventually lose their sting, their profane edge if you will, and thus be rendered harmlessly into the language as just "another word.". And his theory has proven to be true to a degree. We've seen this process change suck and sucks (i.e. they really suck, that sucks) from words considered too profane to ever be uttered in public or on screen, into a cutesified expression now uttered openly by most kids in the land (the gap thoroughly bridged by the use of the term by MacCauley Caulkin in Home Alone). Another example would be bullshit, which is viewed as a pretty tame expression instead of vulgar anymore, and has now crept as a colloquialism onto network TV.
>On August 3, 1966, Lenny Bruce died of a morphine overdose at age 41. Born
as Leonard Alfred Schneider in Mineola, New York, Bruce joined the Navy at
age 16, serving in WWII until 1946. After the war, he briefly studied acting
but turned to stand-up comedy, making his national debut on the Arthur
Godfrey television show. Bruce became one of the most influential comedians
in show business history, the first to lace his routines with profanity and
scatological language (he was arrested many times for obscenity and even
banned from performing in England). Bruce brutally satirized many of the
taboo topics and sacred cows in American society, building a devoted group of
fans and an equally large group of enemies. His 1965 autobiography "How to
Talk Dirty and Influence People" was a bestseller. Bruce struggled with drug
problems most of his life, finally dying of an overdose in 1966. After his
death, he became a cult hero, many fans considering him a martyr to the cause
of free speech. A critic of the American judicial system, he once said:
"In the Halls of Justice
the only justice is in the halls."<
However, I can't defend all the excessive and gratuitous flow of profanity in lyrics and some movies as "free speech"...is it really necessary for the work? That's the criteria I usally use. When you're doing a historical, period piece, I believe in historic accuracy...I mean, WWII soldiers hitting the beach at Iwo Jima didn't use "lousy" as their strongest expletive, their most vulgar language. "Platoon" and "Saving Private Ryan" finally let soldiers in battle talk the way they really spoke. But does a film like, "From Here to Eternity" need that absolute realism in language to work?...no, I don't think so. And I can't understand the hateful words that have become a part of a lot of now-mainstream pop music. But, then again, that's street poetry, and they have the right to write it and perform it. But does it have to be marketed to 8 year olds? (and, still, there has to be some kind of line...no one can say sanctioning rape, for instance, is necessary to the form, or a lyric that should be released...and questions arise if something that so directly hurts another person is even legal to endorse and/or promote). Censorship makes me shudder. But the coarsening of, and the bombarding of, our children with this stuff makes me shudder, too.
Whit'--your overview of Lenny Bruce's point of view--was that what Musick was driving at with his "Someday there will be no cuss words left... but that'll be the same day we all speak the same language"? Musick?
ww - Unless we all live within (or at least next to - within 'view') each others' cultures, we'll never all speak the same language... this shows how true natural polarization works... manifest most clearly in the difference between the sexes. The age of communication we live in may help 'bridge the gap', but my driving point was:
"Getting someone to hear you doesn't mean they're listening."
(ps - I *usually make this point with the words 'listen' and 'hear' in the opposite juxtaposition, but I started this time the 'other way around')
John Denver was my favorite musician well past my teens. My brothers liked Queen and Frank Zappa, though, which I couldn't stand. When my next younger brother came to live with me, I got a chance to really listen to FZ all the way through and discovered I actually liked it - curse words and all. Much, much later, while channel surfing, I saw a clip of Freddie Mercury doing We are The Champions - I think it was from his last performance before he died. Electric. Now I'm a big fan of both (not that Queen is big into the cussin, but FZ certainly is).
I've long had the opinion that the vast majority of music is garbage. But it's not confined to any particular genre (is that the right word to use for music?). Another example: I was pretty convinced that rap was The Earthly Embodiment of Stupidity - but then I heard Baby Got Back and I tell ya - I really, really like that song. (It's still kinda stupid, but I do like it.)
Maybe you could have an assignment where they ask their parents for two songs that were THEIR favorites growing up and play the songs in class. Since most "music" of any particular style is crap, the students will have a much easier time finding something that's good if they're willing to try different things.
I had a coworker who sent to school at St. Olaf's. This is I think some catholic school where The Big Thing On Campus is their choir. It doesn't sound that interesting, but he loaned me some CDs. Skeptical is not the word. I was strongly antipathetic to wasting even two seconds on it, but I just popped it in one day and let it rip. Some of these can almost bring tears to your eyes. I listened to one of them all the way through several times (the CD, not just one song) before I realized these jokers weren't even using instruments. They made all that noise with just their natural equipment.
k
St. Olaf's has a supreme reputation, especially for choral achievement.
What was disturbing--and sad--to me in my student's comment was all the 'good' music had 'cuss words.' It was disturbing that for this one boy, in the entire, rich world of popular music with all its various form of garbs, that for him (at least for him) he could not look forward to a music celebration because he could take no good music to school. And I began to wonder why in this child's experience all of the pop artists he knew and admired used profanity? Think about it. Suppose someone here wanted to get permission from Anu--all of us--to put together a book for high school students, say about communication over the Internet--and then decided to scrap the project because all the good threads had profanity in them.
Maybe this student is drawn to popular music that has 'cuss words' because something in his make-up is drawn to what is forbidden. Maybe. But perhaps the problem is profanity is part and parcel of pop music. Since I don't follow pop music [well, I am a Dixie Chicks fan and their music is sometimes controversial]--the music parties are where I get my brief exposure--I do wonder. About the state of language in that world.
An aside: My father's favorite hummingbird is back. Boss Hog. He's the hummingbird that fights off all the rest from the feeders on the farm. Oh, I realize it's a different Boss Hog every year, but we like to pretend it's the same aggressive male. Anyway, yesterday I dropped by Barnes and Noble and bought Seals & Crofts from 1972--"Summer Breeze"--just for the "Hummingbird" cut. Hadn't heard it in years. Still exciting and good to hear. I don't think it had any profanity, but.
I think profanity may be part and parcel of 'some' pop music, but not all. Not being a big fan of pop music, I couldn't say for sure. But I think my own kids are kind turned off by it. I think my oldest is most fond of Smashmouth (which I only know from Shrek) and the youngest likes Beethoven, Jimmy Buffett, and April Lavigne. (Okay, Jimmy Buffett does get a bit rowdy ... not sure whether he curses, but it can't be that frequently if he does.)
Is it possible the kid was prone to hyperbole? I mean, a lot of times kids are not really great at communicating exactly what they think (I kinda suspect the same is true for a lot of adults) - mostly because they don't really have the mental discipline to work through exactly what they think or why they think it.
I really missed out on the music part of my education when I was growing up. Unlike with my experience with gym class where my "teachers" were mostly incompetent losers, and some of the other courses where it was a mix of bad teaching and good teaching along with my own boneheadedness, my music teachers, I think were mostly pretty good. My failure to gain anything of value there was entirely my own fault. (Music was the only class I was ever thrown out of - and rightly so.) Of course I'm not trying to say your scenario isn't a tragedy. I have some regret now for my former intransigence. I suspect that boy will too, if he really believes what he says.
OTOH, it seems like a digression could be made under the umbrage of the SOL
"Investigate, the third strand, involves students in the study and practice of music theory through music reading, notation, and sight-reading. It also requires the use of critical thinking skills to analyze the manner in which music is organized. Students will identify the style and distinctive characteristics of music which delineate each of the basic music historical periods, as well as the influence of twentieth century technology and compositional techniques employed in all genres of music. Students will also investigate the vocal timbres that are unique to children, adolescents, and adults. Students will be guided in the development of criteria for making informed artistic judgments about music, and the other arts, and for evaluating the role of music in society."
Also, I wonder if you could send home via "infogram" or communicate by other means this episode to parents. It's kinduva double-edged sword there - I know I used to really get insulted by the "advice" my kids bring from the schools.
But it's possible to make a statement, I think, that parents could be informed by (and presumably read between the lines). I mean, I think parents would be interested in this - even if this particular boy is failed, perhaps some other parent could gain some insight and appreciation for "your" job. I don't think you would even have to comment on the situation. Simply relating the event might be sufficient for most people to connect the dots.
k
> good music has cuss words
I think he's pretty much on the money - depending on how you interpret it. I assume that by music, the boy means a tune with spoken or sung words rather than instrumental music. Children we know love deft lyrical constructions, particularly ones which are witty, outlandish and rhythmic. And everybody knows at least one 'dirty nursery rhyme' or perverse corruption of an original - so why is it so surprising, or disturbing that kids like Eminem? Wordsworth tried to convince his readers of the honesty of 'everyday language' but apparently many weren't listening. If, for example, hiphop offends though, it's because it's not meant for everyone, it captivates though realistic portrayals of certain groups of society. A Viennese waltz or N’SYNC will offend me, because to me its heartless, soulless, unfeeling tripe.
If I'm not mistaken 'cuss' comes from 'curse' which has strong religious ties. It's interesting that now, much the same as the time of the ethnic bias imposed by the conquerors of 11th century England, the Latin word 'faeces' and the French 'poop' are considered fine, whereas the Anglish 'shit' is still 'crude and vulgar'. The idea of 'cussing' represents something which is adversarial in nature, something about which one wishes to express strong feelings of opposition. This stance is intrinsic to hiphop often seen as the vent and outlet for young male aggression. If we take the role-model heroine Brittany Spears as a counter example, one's got ask: Is a man talking about a young girl dressed up like a 'hoe' worse than a girl doing exactly that for money and being idolised by her impressionable peers? In such a well-documented society of repression as the U.S. there will always be backlash against swear words which, in turn, gives their usage credence and effect - but talk about double standards! In time we will realise that that which we regard as 'strong language' is above all a product social conditioning and that even the worst bloody[sic] swear words fade into the mush of standard vocab eventually. Some country boy who is now 'the king' was considered a danger to society once, and now 'the most dangerous threat to American children since polio' (GWB) is Eminem! Well funk that!
belligerentyouth...
Do you think good music necessarily contains profanity? I doubt it. As far as cuss...curse...religious ties go: I don't believe there's very much of religion expressed in popular music containing profanity. If there is, point me to the group just so I can satisfy my curiosity.
I'm not arguing here that in order for music to be 'good' it should not have profanity. That is far from my argument. There are too many examples of music that has qualities many enjoy that also happens to have a 'cuss' word here and there or maybe all throughout.
Some good music has profanity. So be it.
The whole point of my expressed disturbance over this ten-year-old boy's description of what he calls 'good music' is that 'all the good music has cuss words'--and then his ensuing disappointment that music with 'cuss words' is not allowed to be played at school. I would never criticize this boy for what he has learned and how he has come to evaluate music. I simply listened to his explanation after I'd asked him why he wasn't looking forward to the party. And I learned what was his point of view. But it disturbed me that he had not found a body of songs from which he would have gladly--like many other children--brought a few to school that would have still fallen under that range of what can be played in a public school. I brought it up here because I suspect that this boy is probably not alone in how he feels about the music the school allows, and also because musical lyrics are part of what expression is about; ergo, our word board discussions.
Someone up there in the thread earler--perhaps it was Fallible--pointed out that it is probably a trait of the boy's age to exaggerate. Perhaps he does have a few songs he likes that actually don't have any 'cuss words.'
But it is this boy's overall impression of language in song that I find disturbing--I certainly would feel the same kind of disturbance if my own daughter expressed that all the 'good music' has cuss words.
Ten years old? This is no age of innocence--scatological, damning words rhythmically and evocatively capturing and somehow affecting his attention and concept of goodness? But more disturbing: his concept of allness or his world view.
What is lacking is a sense of balance.
> Do you think good music necessarily contains profanity?
Yeah, I can see I didn't make myself very clear. I certainly understand why you see his comment as 'disturbing', but I was trying to see it through the eyes of a kid though, who looks for attention through the shock value of abrasive language. I mean, he may just have thought it a dope thang to say in the first place. When you say, 'Bring in some music' I doubt he's thinking of the world of music that is evoked in your mind. I think he probably only sees the power of 'music' amongst his peers in a very direct, raw and crude use of lyrics which will attract attention and make him look daring in front of his friends. The group entertainment factor of comic novelty music (like the aforementioned 'Baby got back') is very high. Assuming this standpoint, and with the lewd possibilities stricken, I'm not sure I could think of much 'good music' to bring in either.
Aside: I just discovered the delights of the throat singers of Tuva (or Tyva) via the great story of Paul Pena's journeys there. Anyone interested in singing in general or perhaps familiar with Tibetan monk or Bantu pygmy singing will be enthralled by this music.
My son comes out of his room the other day, with 6 safety pins across the front of his perfectly good, not torn t-shirt.
I guess you can be glad they're not across his perfectly good face!
Aside: I just discovered the delights of the throat singers of Tuva (or Tyva) via the great story of Paul Pena's journeys there.
Isn't Tuva the place Richard Feynman made a crusade of also?
If so there is a delightful NPR TV broadcast on the subject.
Genghis Blues is the name of the program Crispy (by) is refering to.
http://www.genghisblues.com/
>My son comes out of his room the other day, with 6 safety pins across the front of his perfectly good, not torn t-shirt.
I guess you can be glad they're not across his perfectly good face!<
That I am, Anna, that I am! But, his disposition of late seems to be highly suggestive of that happening sometime in the not so distant future! And I, of course, have to pull out that favorite parental phrase: "not while you are living under my roof!"
From Saki's "The Secret Sin of Septimius Brope":
"To think that a scandal of this sort should be going on under my roof!" said Mrs. Riversedge indignantly.
"I wonder why it is that scandal seems so much worse under a roof," observed Clovis; "I've always regarded it as a proof of the superior delicacy of the cat tribe that it conducts most of its scandals above the slates."The whole story can be found at:
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/doklands/Clovis/SeptimusBrope.htmlBingley
Oh, that is delightful, Bingley! Thanks for sharing! Made me smile :)
PS......did you know that if one hits the 'Check spelling' button before posting, and the post has 'Bingley' in it, that spellcheck corrects Bingley to 'bingo'?
Just thought that was kind of cute......... :)
The wine-pourer was among the favorite authors of my youth.
Not read that story, though.
thanks,
k