How do you pronounce "Adler"

At least 65% of the people seeing my last name "Adler" pronounce it as "Alder" and maybe 10% as "Atler". I was telling a friend who has a Sailboat using "Adler/Barbour refrigeration" about this and he said "'Alder'
like in my refrigeration?". He was not joking, for 20 years he thought it was "Alder" not "Adler". Now there has to be a reason that so many people have trouble with this and I would love to know what it is or where to find the answer.

I would blame dog for giving so many people dyslexia.

Good one, tsuwm!

Welcome, Carltree.

Sorry about that. I was just thinking about our tendency to make new input fit patterns we are familiar with, and yet--alder is not all that well-known or used a tree name.
Maybe they're thinking of the letter pattern of older or
elder.

Two other things: your part of the country is my husband's favorite vacation spot; and, can you tell us how Kill Devil Hills got its name? I never have gotten around to trying to look it up. (LIU, as you may have seen it here.)

Nice to have with you with us Carl. I am utterly bewilderd by the difficulties you describe. I have no idea how people could get Adler misslepped in their minds like that. When I hear Adler, I automatically get an image of a very old manual typewriter, followed by an image of the old German flag, complete with Adler. It might be interesting to see how many countries, use an Adler as their national bird. I suppose if the problem proves incurable, you could concede defeat by changing your surname to Eagle. I do admire your patience, though. I live with people constantly misspelling my "real" name, and it drives me nuts! I suggest that you spend as much time as you can here, among people who are meticulous in their use of language. Here at least, you will always be "Adler", never "Alder", or "Atler".

here, among people who are meticulous in their use of language

That's a foul calumny! Some of us are particulate in our misuse of the luggage

Have you noticed anyone making the same mistake referring to Irene Adler from the Sherlock Holmes stories?

Bingley

My guess is, those people instinctively want to avoid the dilemma of how to pronounce the initial vowel in "Adler" (at least 4 possibilities), so they fall back on Alder, which has a "consensus pronounciation"

.
My own last name, Sieber, (correct pronounciation like "Sea'ber"), is generally copied as "Seiber" and pronounced "Cyber" in Anglo-Saxon contexts, whereas Germans can't resist adding a final 't' to it!.

And I was (in my mind) pronouncing your last name 'zee-ber' - assuming false Germanic pronunciation authority. (Serves me right!)

As for Adler, though I am familiar with the Irene Adler reference (as which Holmesian would not be?) the first thought I had was of the psychologist/psychiatrist Adler - wasn't he the third in the holy trinity begin by Freud and Jung?

And, no, I would not dream of pronouncing (or spelling) the name 'Alder' (being perhaps more likely to 'correct' it the other way - from Alder to Adler...)

I have often thought the same, but although I am very familiar with alder as a tree being an outdoors type person, I don't think many would be. Now 'elder' is a real possibility. We keep our sailboat on Albemarle sound about an hour from Kill Devil Hills and have never thought of how it got its name. I will find out though.
Carl (Tree)

"My guess is, those people instinctively want to avoid the dilemma of how to pronounce the initial vowel in "Adler" (at least 4 possibilities),"
Now that is something I never thought of and may be the best explanation yet. Thanks.
Carl

Bingley-- you failed me! I was sure as i read the thread you would point out there is a actually a term for the process-- ( i have heard it, but it was a fleeting reference.)
there is a term for Adler becoming Alder, and Pretty becoming Pertty-- where a letter is transposed in pronounceation. Could it be a pertty effect? do you know the term? I think you must! if i have come across it in reading, you must have! Of course is I wrote from home, where i have a nice selection of reference books, in stead of from work....

Helen, I am not the accomplish�d Bingley, but I think when letters are transposed, it is called a reversal.

gee, I thought that the transposition of letters was called a "transposition of lettres".

but seriously, there is a linguistic term that is used for the transposition of two phonemes (letters or sounds) in a word: [b/metathesis. examples of this are seen in the development of the word 'crud' from 'curd' and the (mis)pronunciation of 'pretty' as 'perty'!

see also Anu's own entry on metathesis: http://wordsmith.org/awad/archives/0500

Metathesis also explains why we have three and third rather than three and thrid.

Bingley

Metathesis also explains why we have three and third rather than three and thrid.
Ok, but we still have thread

- so why does metathesis strike in one place but not in another? I think we are onto something very subtle here. BTW, I always thought that phonemes were sound units (rendered in general by several letters) not just vowels or consonants. Each language has familiar and less familiar phonemes. So "adl" in English is an unfamiliar phoneme (it doesn't occur in any genuine word, to my knowledge), whereas e.g. "oodl" or "atl" are familiar ones, which would not be changed to "oold" or "alt".

I don't think anyone knows why metathesis or any other linguistic change occurs. The best we can do is to say with some precision what has happened, not why it happened.

A phoneme is indeed a sound unit. Change the phoneme and you have the possibility of changing the word. (For example in word change the phoneme /d/ to the phoneme /k/ and you get work instead of word.) But phonemes are not exactly the same as sounds because different languages divide up the possible sounds available into different phonemes. For example, /l/ and /r/ are different phonemes in English but the same phoneme in Japanese, hence their problems with River Valley Road. If you listen carefully, you will discover that the English /l/ is pronounced differently at the beginning and end of syllables. I'm told that in Welsh each of these realisations of the English phoneme (called allophones) is a different phoneme and can occur in any position.

I hope the above isn't too addled for you to understand. (Sorry wseiber, not a word non-native speakers are likely to come across very often.)

Bingley

I hope the above isn't too addled for you to understand.

Not fair -

- the sound in addled is not the same as that in Adler. Now, ad lib, badly, sadly and others have the same (or nearly the same) sound values. But I don't think they're common. Of course, if you ignore the vowel sound and focus upon the consonants alone, you get some interesting ("swings both ways"?) combinations: baldly, boldly, wildly and the like. If we can pronounce those, then we can pronounce Adler.

It sounds like the people who can't pronouce your name have never heard of the famous harmonica player.

http://uwadmnweb.uwyo.edu/ahc/exhibits/adler/

or perhaps they pronounced his name wrong too!

In reply to:
the sound in addled is not the same as that in Adler

True, but the difference, at least in my pronunciation, is not in the vowel but in the allophone of /l/ being used (a final "dark" /l/ rather than an initial "clear" /l/.

Bingley

Let me thank everyone, I have learned a lot. I am obviously in the company of experts and I hesitate to say anything. That being said, when I try to pronounce 'adl' I have to do a lot more with my tongue and mouth than when I try to pronounce 'ald'. I wonder if this could be a factor.

Carl

when I try to pronounce 'adl' I have to do a lot more with my tongue and mouth than when I try to pronounce 'ald'. I wonder if this could be a factor.

You may well be right. A number of languages show this tension between simplifying the sounds (to make them easy to pronounce) and complicating them (possibly to make them easier to distinguish, and also perhaps to demonstrate prowess).

If you will forgive a mildly off-topic diversion, Devanagari, the most widely used script in India, actually has rules about phonetic elisions of the sort seen in alder, and addled - except that they are with regard to the nasal consonants, rather than the 'r', 'l' or 's' sounds that are otherwise the most commonly elided.

Consequently, they recognise that before a 'p' or 'b' sound, for instance, the most appropriate nasal sound is the 'm' sound, not a 'n' sound, and most words are structured that way. If, for whatever reason (say through prefixes, as in anpad {unschooled}) a different nasal sound is required before the consonant, it is given its full value, rather than being elided (as would be the case of the 'n' in 'ing', for instance).

In English, I suspect, one of the reasons we have this problem is the sheer prodigality with which the language has borrowed its vocabulary from other languages. We are subject to a barrage of words that were never meant to be pronounced in English (Adler being one of them). It then 'makes sense' for us to slowly, but surely, mould them into pronunciations that most suit our tongues (literally).

Thus, in the States, nuclear is more commonly nucular, and realtor becomes reelator. In the UK, more often than not, I hear people saying pacific rather than specific. And so on. In that sense, you may well lose the battle to keep your name - sometime in the future, one of your descendants will start spelling it Alder (and pronouncing it the same way) and it will have too much inertia to ever come back to the 'right' pronunciation and spelling. As who should know better than me - with an Indian name and an English accent!

cheer

the sunshine warrior

saying pacific rather than specific

Aaargh! yes, that used to be one of the things that drove me up the wall. But when I realised one of the perps in daily contact was actually mastering a serious dyslexia challenge, I kind of mentally gritted my teeth, and tried to think of daffodils

sometime in the future, one of your descendants will start spelling it Alder...

... or Adder, or Auden, or... This kind of transmutation is certainly common over the long run or years, isn't it, both with personal and place names?

... or Adder, or Auden, or... This kind of transmutation is certainly common over the long run or years, isn't it, both with personal and place names?

This reminds me of a friend whose last name is Bloch, pronounced Block. Most people would either try to say Black or Blotch. One of her relatives got frustrated with the confusion and changed her name to Block. People promply started calling her Black.

>the sound in addled is not the same as that in Adler.

All right, exactly how is Adler pronounced? I would have pronounce it ADD LUR, with the same ADD sound as in addled, badly and sadly. By the posts here I seem to be off mark.

In reply to:
I am obviously in the company of experts and I hesitate to say anything.

Heavens, don't be put off by some of the more meretricious postings we indulge in. You are our expert on English as it is used in your community and profession and we'll always glad to hear from you about that and anything else you may wish to contribute. If you've had a look round you may have noticed that we do not confine ourselves to linguistics and the more arcane parts of the OED.

Bingley

I would have pronounce it ADD LUR, with the same ADD sound as in addled, badly and sadly.

Sorry for any confusion, Bel. My point was simply that addled has a different 'l' sound in that there is a schwa between the 'd' and the 'l' sounds in addled, whereas in Adler, sadly or badly the 'l' follows the 'd' without a schwa (neutral, unaccented vowel) in between. So the 'dl' in Adler is effectively a compound consonant. This is not the case in addled.

cheer

the sunshine warrior

and a Happy new Year to you!

Can't you just change your name to Smith??? ;)

>Can't you just change your name?

It seems to be more widespread than I realised. Only the other day a freind was telling me that two brothers and their families had decided to change their names. Their children were nearing school age and decided that it was easier to change all their names than putting up with the comments that they had endured as children. I don't think it was Smith that they chose, but not far off. Their real name was ... Crapper.

This site is addictive. You know, of course that Mr. Crapper was a man who made toilets -- in England I believe -- and being proud of his work he put his name on the product and so came into use the phrase :"Where is the Crapper" meaning "Where is the toilet." Lacking legal eagles dedicated to preserving proprietary names for thier clients the name came into common use and Crapper became toilet and vice versa.
As to other name changes, an acquaintance of mine changed his last name to April from the Italian Fiacaprile to save his daughter the inevitable slings and arrows of feckless freshmen. The word play was even directed toward him and he was a soldier and he had a gun! Some people have no sense of self preservation. Aloha to you all. wow

be very careful when spreading legend and myth regarding words around here; you might find yourself in the crapper

I think we've covered (no pun) this one before, so I'll just provide an apposite link:
http://www.theplumber.com/crapper.html

Dear tsuwm, Thank you for the link. Since I am new I did not know about the prior discussion and found the info at the plumbing site very enlightning. I blush to have promulgated a myth. Goes to show that even one as intelligent, enlightened and perfect as I can make mistrakes. I appreciate your sending along information and not just making me feel like I was being rapped on knuckles. If everyone here is as empathetic I have found a happy place that I hope you will let me join .... I promise to mind my manners and think and check before post. Aloha, wow

In reply to:
If everyone here is as empathetic I have found a happy place that I hope you will let me join .... I promise to mind my manners and think and check before post.

Welcome to the club, wow! When I first arrived, I blundered in with so many questions that had already been answered, a new acronym was coined in recognition of my total lack of finesse. Yet Another Rehashed Topic, and judging by your contributions thus far, my position as yartist laureate is under no threat.
On a slightly more serious note, the archive of posts here is huge. Bear that in mind when you use the search function, looking for keywords in an attempt to avoid yarting. I would suggest that if you don't find something in a relatively short period of time, jump right in. Someone will be able to provide a link as tsuwm did, and you will have saved yourself hours of hunting through a very distracting haystack looking for a specific needle. If someone as inept as I can eventually fit in, I'm sure you will have no trouble. SHARE AND ENJOY.