The grammar gurus

I doubt that any of these grammar gurus can tell you why we would need two words for comparison of countable (fewer) and measurable (less) quantities if the one being spoken of is of a smaller value than the other but manage to scrape by quite well with only one if the one is of a greater value (more).

manage to scrape by quite well with only one if the one is of a greater value (more).

Yes, after I posted that, I pondered that problem, too. But I'd already self-replied once today so I thought I'd let it go.

It's one of those distinctions I just have to shrug off. Ten items or less doesn't bother me, but I'd have a problem with "The guy in front of me has less items than I do." But still, more is always more.

But still, more is always more.

... unless you're Mies van der Rohe.

Touché, already.

Touché already.

Somebody hadda say it, slithy.

...only one if the one is of a greater value (more).

Surely there's manyer than that.

It's one of those distinctions I just have to shrug off.

I dunno....It still bugs me. But then, I'm keen on precision in language and grammar (though I will confess to being a bit of a baddie when it comes to splitting infinitives). "Due to" when people mean "owing to" or "because of" drives me absolutely bananas!

Due to/owing to

Due, owing, what's the difference?

Dear MG: my dictionary says:
due to
1 caused by; resulting from !an omission due to oversight"
2 [Colloq.] because of: widely so used despite objections by some grammarians !the name was omitted due to oversight"

OK, what's the difference between caused by and because of?

And note: I did not ask above what the difference was between due to and owing to, I asked what the difference was between due and owing.

I think this speaks to the point, Faldage..

Due to has been widely used for many years as a compound preposition like owing to, but some critics have insisted that due should be used only as an adjective. According to this view, it is incorrect to say The concert was canceled due to the rain but acceptable to say The cancellation of the concert was due to the rain, where due continues to function as an adjective modifying cancellation. This seems a fine point, however, and since due to is widely used and understood, there seems little reason to avoid using it as a preposition. [emPHAsis mine]

The American Heritage® Book of English Usage. Copyright © 1996 by Houghton Mifflin Company

and while I'm there..

The traditional rule says that you should use fewer for things that can be counted (fewer than four players) but less with mass terms for things of measurable extent (less paper, less than a gallon of paint). But people use less in certain constructions where fewer would occur if the rule were being followed. You can use less than before a plural noun that denotes a measure of time, amount, or distance: less than three weeks, less than $400, less than 50 miles. You can sometimes use less with plural nouns in the expressions no less than and or less. Thus you can say No less than 30 of his colleagues signed the letter and Give your reasons in 25 words or less.

The American Heritage® Book of English Usage. Copyright © 1996 by Houghton Mifflin Company

what's wrong with "10 or less"?

Nothing. Apart from the obvious grammatical error it's just an abbrevaition of "10 items or less than 10 items". But that's just stupid.

Now, what's wrong with "Special today!"?????

You can use less than before a plural noun that denotes a measure of time, amount, or distance: less than three weeks, less than $400, less than 50 miles.

Well, duh! Even though it appears to be counting, it is, in fact, measuring and less is the "proper" word to use in those circumstances. You could hardly expect one to say, "Buffalo is expecting one inch or fewer of snow today."

> What's wrong with "10 or less"?

Doesn't touch me at all (since the medication).

>Special today? ...
I had a special yesterday, but will tomorrow turn out special too?

Speaking of signs, The Wall Street Institute has a sign up here that reads:
'Learn English Free!'
..but from who, huh.. [g]

Just 'member: DRIVE SLOW!

Urgh.

Harking back to due to/owing to:

I would say, "The concert was due to start at 8 pm, but owing to one performer's illness, it began late."

I wouldn't say, "The concert was due to start at 8 pm, but due to one performer's illness, it began late."

I would say, "The Weather Network claims a snowstorm is due to begin this evening." (if I wanted to phrase it that way - in reality I'd probably say, "The Weather Network says we'll have a snowstorm tonight.")

I would NOT say, "Due to climactic conditions, we're supposed to get a snowstorm this evening."

"Due" is an indication of something forthcoming; not an indicator of reason.

It's like "light years" - another usage that is often mangled these days. Light years measure distance, not time. You cannot ACCURATELY say, even in jest, "He's light years older than I am." You CAN say, "Your modification of this plan is light years from my original idea."

And it's not, "He's older than me." It's, "He's older than I [am]."

ron pedantic [/rant]

thanks, everybody. very enlightening, keep going

There are 10 types of people in this world. Those who understand binary, and those who don't.

No, no, Rube. There's *three kinds of people; those that count and those that don't count.

There are ten types of people in this world. Those who understand binary, and those who don't.

Yes, but. We write a one and a zero in binary, which looks like 10, but it's still "two," meaning successor-of-one, no matter what base we use. Binary writes "1, 10, 11, 100," but those numerals still mean "one, two, three, four".

wofa, sure and it should have been written There are 10 types of people in this world. Those who understand binary, and those who don't.

-ron o.

There are 10 types of people in this world. Those who understand binary, and those who don't.
NOW I get it! :-)

Damn. I shouldn't have tried to write it so fast. I've edited it above to make more sense.

no, now you've edited it and made it more confusing!

In reply to:

---

I would NOT say, "Due to climactic conditions, we're supposed to get a snowstorm this evening."

---

I hope you wouldn't, although it would be interesting to see (or experience) a climax that altered the weather.

it would be interesting to see (or experience) a climax that altered the weather.

aw, we all've had a few that made the earth move...

AUGH! Stop it, stop it, stop it, you two!

I hope you wouldn't, although it would be interesting to see (or experience) a climax that altered the weather.

Gives a whole new meaning to a wet and warm front.

Ohmigawd--I am dying, you-all! Geez! Don't you dare mention this if I do get to meet you face-to-face!

ROTFL

Due to anticlimactic conditions, a cold front is moving in.

Are you callin' me frigid, Bub?!?

Ahhhhh! For a minute there, I thought Jackie was reverting to her old gutter police action. I guess we corrupted her better than we thought C'mon back to the gutter, luv. It's warmer here. <EG>

But seriously, folks. There is some hope after all. I just saw in my local Stop-and-Shop that the sign reads "Express Lane - 12 items or fewer"

Following binary *style sequences 12 would actually® *be "6" in... would it be called "trinary"?
(e.g. 000=1, 001=2, 002=3, 010=4, 011=5, 012=6, 020=7, 022=8, 100=9, 101...)

000=1, 001=2, 002=3, 010=4, 011=5, 012=6, 020=7, 022=8, 100=9, 101...

Don't care much for your starting point there, moose. How about:
000=0, 001=1, 002=2, 010=3, 011=4, 012=5, 020=6, 021=7, 022=8, 100...

Trinary sounds good, though.

Yeah... it's just us moosicians. We st(y)art counting from juan.

you did pretty good to get past four!

get past four

Nemmine the hiccup at 020, 022. Ifn you're gone start at 1 start at 001.

I hope you wouldn't, although it would be interesting to see (or experience) a climax that altered the weather.



Like Rubric, sometimes I write too fast....And I am my own worst editor.

sighhhhh

As far as I know the word for base-three numbers is "ternary." It can also refer to mixtures/solutions of three substances which, like metal alloys, can have different properties from the individual components.

For the number-system usage see, for example, http://ips.ifmo.ru/en/course1/chapter1/lesson1/.

http://kosmoi.com/Science/Mathematics/Number/ also looks like a place to do some nice browsing, in other fields too.