Since we're verging on the fatal 99 posts, I started a continuation. Here's my last post and
linguistic question:
Curiously enough, Italians aren't blanketed into the the term
Hispanic, though Italian men are often referred to as
Latin Lovers. And, actually, the Italians and ancient Romans are the only true
Latins, so how did Latin come to mean Spanish culture? Perhaps because Spanish is more directly derived from Latin than any other language except for Italian?...Faldage? emanuela?
And what is the differenece between Latin and Latino in describing Spanish-speaking people and culture?
Words?You mean there are no words on this thread? What have I been reading?
And don't forget Jackie's
Phenomenal Women. Mebbe Jackie and WW could relocate their posts, if they like...or mebbe not, whichever.
The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language: Fourth Edition. 2000.
Hispanic
ADJECTIVE: 1. Of or relating to Spain or Spanish-speaking Latin America. 2. Of or relating to a Spanish-speaking people or culture.
NOUN: 1. A Spanish-speaking person. 2. A U.S. citizen or resident of Latin-American or Spanish descent.
ETYMOLOGY: Latin Hispnicus, from Hispnia, Spain.
USAGE NOTE: Though often used interchangeably in American English, Hispanic and Latino are not identical terms, and in certain contexts the choice between them can be significant. Hispanic, from the Latin word for “Spain,” has the broader reference, potentially encompassing all Spanish-speaking peoples in both hemispheres and emphasizing the common denominator of language among communities that sometimes have little else in common. Latino—which in Spanish means "Latin" but which as an English word is probably a shortening of the Spanish word latinoamericano—refers more exclusively to persons or communities of Latin American origin. Of the two, only Hispanic can be used in referring to Spain and its history and culture; a native of Spain residing in the United States is a Hispanic, not a Latino, and one cannot substitute Latino in the phrase the Hispanic influence on native Mexican cultures without garbling the meaning. In practice, however, this distinction is of little significance when referring to residents of the United States, most of whom are of Latin American origin and can theoretically be called by either word. •A more important distinction concerns the sociopolitical rift that has opened between Latino and Hispanic in American usage. For a certain segment of the Spanish-speaking population, Latino is a term of ethnic pride and Hispanic a label that borders on the offensive. According to this view, Hispanic lacks the authenticity and cultural resonance of Latino, with its Spanish sound and its ability to show the feminine form Latina when used of women. Furthermore, Hispanic—the term used by the U.S. Census Bureau and other government agencies—is said to bear the stamp of an Anglo establishment far removed from the concerns of the Spanish-speaking community. While these views are strongly held by some, they are by no means universal, and the division in usage seems as related to geography as it is to politics, with Latino widely preferred in California and Hispanic the more usual term in Florida and Texas. Even in these regions, however, usage is often mixed, and it is not uncommon to find both terms used by the same writer or speaker.
Am still unclear, WO'N, about the reason why 'Latin' in the first place; shall post when I find something more.
In what way is "Asian" a less meaningless, potentially insulting "generic clubbing" than Oriental
I would think that might be due to the fact that Asian simply refers to the land mass that a person originated from; whereas Oriental is an expression in one man's language to describe or refer to everything that is/was different from his own Occidental experience. When this same language has now become the communication tool for most people in the twenty first century, the cultures that fall under the umbrella term "Oriental" might feel at variance with all the things that the word was used to imply. Especially when it was not a term designed to refer to a specific race or an ethnic group or a culture. It was and is a descriptive term and not everyone or every culture that it broadly embraces, might agree with the characterisation. To the best of my knowledge, it was used derogatorily, much like 'natives'. I am not certain that, all it meant those days was exotic but I have met people who find the term insulting, and I understand that.
The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language: Fourth Edition. 2000.
The real problem with Oriental is more likely its connotations stemming from an earlier era when Europeans viewed the regions east of the Mediterranean as exotic lands full of romance and intrigue, the home of despotic empires and inscrutable customs. At the least these associations can give Oriental a dated feel, and as a noun in contemporary contexts (as in the first Oriental to be elected from the district) it is now widely taken to be offensive. However, Oriental should not be thought of as an ethnic slur to be avoided in all situations. As with Asiatic, its use other than as an ethnonym, in phrases such as Oriental cuisine or Oriental medicine, is not usually considered objectionable.
> Especially when it was not a term designed to refer to a specific race or an ethnic group or a culture. It was and is a descriptive term and not everyone or every culture that it broadly embraces, might agree with the characterisation.
The same still holds equally true for Asian, and I have spoken to many from the subcontinent who will not accept being called "Asian", insisting on "Indian." hi TEd
Doesn't talking about boundary definitions get deadly dull after a while?
Not to those who find it interesting, by.
A) Many of these terms take on a aura of contempt and are replaced by other words, not tinged with the contmptible; that these new words are later replaced for the same reason merely points to the fact that it is the underlying concept that is somehow considered contemptible. It is to this attitude of contempt that we should direct our corrective thoughts and not to the language being used to describe it.
2) If words like Latin, Hispanic, oriental and Asian are rejected because they lump together people of vastly differing cultures, what of the term people of color?
Thanks for the post on Latin/Hispanic, maahey!
I finally found the etymology of
Latin-America, Latin America, at
http://wikipedia.org/wiki/Latin-America, evidently not as directly connected to the Romance Languages (Spanish, Portugese, French) as most folks, including myself, would have assumed:
>Latin America
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.
Latin America refers to the American countries south of the United States, comprising all of South America, Central America, Mexico, and the Caribbean.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Etymological note: Treating the term literally, one might expect the term to apply to cultures and regions in the Americas deriving from cultures speaking Romance languages (those descended from Latin). However this is not the case and French-speaking Quebec in Canada is not part of Latin America. Yet this was the original intention of the term -- "Latin America" was first proposed during the French occupation of Mexico (1862-1867), when Napoleon III supported the Archduke Maximilian's pretensions to be emperor of Mexico. The French hoped that an inclusive notion of "Latin" America would support their cause. That Mexican citizens eventually expelled the French while retaining the term "Latino" is perhaps one of history's more charming ironies. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Latin American countries include:
Mexico
El Salvador
Belize
Guatemala
Honduras
Costa Rica
Nicaragua
Panama
Colombia
Ecuador
Peru
Chile
Argentina
Uruguay
Paraguay
Bolivia
Brazil
Venezuela
Cuba
Dominican Republic
Puerto Rico
In addition, Spain and Portugal are considered to be the Mother Countries of Latin America.<
Gee, it seems to me that exploring the semantics, nuance and etymology of words and terms is what we do here, and why this is being publicly knocked on AWAD is a curiosity to me. PC had always been a pertinent discussion here, with its restructuring of language as its foundation, going all the way back to the start in 2000 with tsuwm's thread. There are more than enough threads to read and explore that will pique the interest if others do not. Those of us who have been here for awhile should know that public ridicule of a thread found uninteresting or boring is not the AWAD way.
in defense of by (who really needs none from me), I thought he was expressing a valid point with his subject and merely asking a question (i.e., doesn't this get boring?) in the body--so why is he being singled out for personal challenge?
as an aside, those who are still posting to the main thread, now that it's passed 99 posts, would seem to be either (1) lazy and/or (b) rude. the reason for this judgment is that the 'rule of 99' has been explained recently as well as many times previously. I hope that I'm not missing any non-boring posts therein.
Thanks, tsuwm for supporting those of us new to the board who haven't ventured around long enough to have assimilated the past (millions of threads) you carpal tunnels share. While it's fun to see you all riffing off one another, it is not always easy to jump in.
Personally, I meant no offense to the good folk in here when I said something similar days ago, and I appreciated all of those who addressed me either in here or in private.
The upshot was that I stopped posting on this one, which is just fine.
I enjoy everyone's ramblings, and hope that you veterans remember how different it is for the stangers and newbies to post than for all of you.
And Juan, you have always been one of the kindest, and for that I am grateful. I look forward to anything you post.
And happy new year and happy birthday(s) to all of you....
maria
>Latin America
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.
Latin America refers to the American countries south of the United States, comprising all of South America, Central America, Mexico, and the Caribbean.
I don't understand this definition. Belize is Latin American? Bahamas? Surinam?
by wasn't being singled out, tsuwm.
There were a few comments by a few folks on the thread along the way, some of which I parlayed with humorously
, but after awhile...
Here's a more thorough definition from
http://encyclopedia.com, AnnaS:
>Latin America
Related: South American Geography
the Spanish-speaking, Portuguese-speaking, and French-speaking countries (except Canada) of North America, South America, Central America, and the West Indies. The 20 republics are Argentina, Bolivia, Brazil, Chile, Colombia, Costa Rica, Cuba, Dominican Republic, Ecuador, El Salvador, Guatemala, Haiti, Honduras, Mexico, Nicaragua, Panama, Paraguay, Peru, Uruguay, and Venezuela. The term Latin America is also used to include Puerto Rico, the French West Indies, and other islands of the West Indies where a Romance tongue is spoken. Occasionally the term is used to include Belize, Guyana, French Guiana, and Suriname.<
>Doesn't talking about boundary definitions get deadly dull after a while?
I'm not a big fan of borders, but this thread seems to me to be more about the use of language than the concept of boundaries, and, as long as it remains thus, it will be interesting to me.
'rule of 99'
It might be noted in passing that the ninety-nine posts is the total number of posts that any one page can display. This includes the initiating post. The number noted on the main forum page is the total number of replies, which does not include the initiating post. Thus a new thread should be started when *that number equals 98.
Oh dear! I believe this one was the hundredth on that thread. I posted on the original, since the posts that it was in response to, are there. Am not so certain that this will be relevant here, but in strict adherence to the Rule of 98 or 99, here goes....
from original thread, 'PC gone mad'
I am sorry you didn't enjoy the poem, Jackie. To me, it reads as if the author starts out in a self consciously reassuring fashion and as the words roll on, the mood effortlessly segues into one that is confident and celebratory. In an environment that constantly floods us with utopian sterotypes of beauty and perfection and where eating disorders by association, are ever on the rise, this poem seems like a gentle yet firm reminder of all the glorious diversity of beauty in the form of creation. And thus echoed Herrick's words:
A sweet disorder......
....Do more bewitch me than when art
Is too precise in every part.
Thanks Jackie, for posting the poem; It was a pleasure to read.
Thank you for the etymological note, WO'N; was exactly what I was searching for too.
It is to this attitude of contempt that we should direct our corrective thoughts and not to the language being used to describe it
I couldnt agree more Faldage. Reminds me of a daily (almost) family squabble. Many discussions or arguments at home tend to get derailed because of dad's intolerance with improper word usage. Mum always is telling him to get "behind" the words. The general point of angst being, that it is not only what something IS that is important, it is equally important to focus on what it is PERCEIVED TO BE. Indeed, if words were once used to translate contempt, then the same words get tainted by those attitudes and are continually perceived as deriding. And therefore, even if they aren't strictly derogatory in today's changed circumstances, they are probably PERCEIVED as being such.
Thanks maahey, your words have reminded me of one of those great light dawning moments, many years ago, when someone I respected said: “Come on, Dave! I know you’re right, but the truth doesn’t matter, its what people PERCEIVE to be the truth that you have to deal with. Perception is everything.” Sadly, it is so true and it takes so long to change our perceptions!
the truth doesn’t matter, its what people PERCEIVE to be the truth that you have to deal with
No wonder my head is getting flatter and flatter...
==========================================================
Yes, mm, we old-timers kind of got educated the hard way, but we by and large do try to keep in mind that newcomers can't be expected to know everything. Rule of 99? Pooh--a means of convenience, not something to get fussed at over. You-all, just jump in whenever you've a mind to; though I know it can be disconcerting when no one responds. That's why I try to as often as I can. But please don't assume there is a specific, negative reason if you don't get a response; sometimes people only have time for a "flying visit". (Which reminds me, I shouldn't be here now!) If anyone has a question, feel free to ask me; if I know the answer, I'll be happy to provide it.
“Come on, Dave! I know you’re right, but the truth doesn’t matter, its what people PERCEIVE to be the truth that you have to deal with. Perception is everything.” Sadly, it is so true and it takes so long to change our perceptions! Bullshit! Perception is bullshit! You with the balls to be alive should slap the jigger of so-called "preception". If truth is not semantically "truth" then why does anything matter? Sheep graze, then one day they die.
Why thank you Wordwind. I can now see how a sensitive person would take my "Bullshit" comments and perceive them to be personal. This perception would be wrong. But the indignation that I feel and tried to express is very real. I think that we sapiens are in danger of becoming less than alive; inanimate things, sculpted and manufactured by an effete culture.
And if we continue tip-toeing through this life, afraid to speak out in fear of offending even the offensive, we will become much like cattle, mindless, harmless, creatures that munch grass but don't offend. Sorry, but I perceive myself as a self-righteous one-man crusade against this deterioration.
And if we continue tip-toeing through this life, afraid to speak out in fear of offending even the offensive, we will become much like cattle, mindless, harmless, creatures that munch grass but don't offend.
Hmm; I am one who has distinct bovine tendencies, yet I feel I must respond to this. There are several aspects to your stance (which, by the way, I agree with in principle).
One is: WHY are you (anyone) speaking out? Do you honestly feel that an important point has been overlooked? Or would you be doing it, for ex., to create an uproar, or just because you can? If it's for one of these last two, then I have to say I wouldn't do it.
Another thing to consider is HOW you speak out. If you are brash, abrupt, and rude, you're less likely to be listened to. Though there are times that justify more or less forcibly "grabbing the microphone", I think. I hope I never find myself at an occasion like that--the very idea scares me to death! Uh-oh--I just remembered: I have one of those times coming up soon--the next time a certain committee meeting is held. (I just took in a deep breath to help me "get ready"!) But this is a time it's necessary, I believe; though I doubt that it will do much good. My best hope is that I'll prick a few consciences; if anything actually changes, that'll be gravy. The gist of it will be that, while we shouldn't ignore real problems, wailing and hand-wringing not only do not solve problems, I hold the belief that it can cause actual harm. Y'all wish me luck, please.
“Come on, Dave! I know you’re right, but the truth doesn’t matter, its what people PERCEIVE to be the truth that you have to deal with. Perception is everything.” Sadly, it is so true and it takes so long to change our perceptions!
Bullshit!……….. I think that we sapiens are in danger of becoming less than alive; inanimate things sculpted and manufactured by an effete culture. - milum
Peace, Milum, peace!
The guy didn’t say that I had to ACCEPT other peoples’ perceptions of the truth, he said that I had to deal with them, because people act according to their perceptions. The truth doesn’t matter to them because they don’t believe it, so they will act according to their own perception of the truth. I had to deal with that and correct their perception of the truth because I needed their help to get the job done.
Not sure about the connection between the sheep you finished with and the bulls you started off with. Bulls rush in where sheep fear to tread and all God’s chillun gotta scratch fo’ a livin’, even sheep that safely graze.
I give you one of the best loved songs of the American people and wonder what the PC folks will ever make of it if perhaps it does get dusted off, maybe by some high school band if our next war and parade season coincide:
When Johnny Comes Marching Home Again,
Hurrah! Hurrah!
We'll give him a hearty welcome then
Hurrah! Hurrah!
The men will cheer and the boys will shout
The ladies they will all turn out
And we'll all feel gay,
When Johnny comes marching home.
The old church bell will peal with joy
Hurrah! Hurrah!
To welcome home our darling boy
Hurrah! Hurrah!
The village lads and lassies say
With roses they will strew the way,
And we'll all feel gay
When Johnny comes marching home.
Get ready for the Jubilee,
Hurrah! Hurrah!
We'll give the hero three times three,
Hurrah! Hurrah!
The laurel wreath is ready now
To place upon his loyal brow
And we'll all feel gay
When Johnny comes marching home
A rousing version can be experienced via [italics]Stalag 17[/italics], the film.
You've come a long way, Juanita!
Huh?
You've come a long way, Juanita!Huh? Go to the profile page and read the first two previous messages, W'ON. Obviously a sock-puppet.
You've come a long way, Juanita!It's just that the meaning here escapes my ken.
Those of us who have been here for awhile should know that public ridicule of a thread found uninteresting or boring is not the AWAD way.
- and -
And Musick will teach you to be tough-skinned. Listen to Musick. Musick is very tough-skinned.
I account for both of these on 'humankinds' seeming refusal to perceive what was actually® *said. If politics were more focused on meaning something to humankind collectively and less on borders and how to seperate the *winners from the loosers (Hi, Juan) there would be no need for being PC... but this isn't what *we teach kids so we all live with the consequences.
... the meaning here escapes my ken.
Time to put more words on the barbie.
Gee whiz, gwz--I'm trying to figure out whether there's something you're trying to get across in your post above. I'm wondering whether you think, or would have us think, that Juan is homosexual, since your subject title is a take-off on an ad for cigarettes marketed to women. And if that is so, I am really wondering what you might be trying to accomplish?
Completely apart from the personal reference, your post could be interpreted as denigrating to gays, and besides the fact that I personally don't like that, this is not the place for it.
If gwz thinks that someone's being gay makes that person a potential target for ridicule then that is gwz's problem. That it may have been intended as an insult need not mean that it be taken as one. It becomes either a statement of fact or a simple mistake. If the latter, we can merely consider it an incomplete pass.
Oh, I took gwz's comment a completely different way.
Juanita = Johnny, as In 'When Johnny Comes Marching Home"; I don't think it is referencing our Juan. And I thought the gist of his post was similar to that which many of you have taken in the pc thread about the contemporary meaning of many well used words changing dramatically to now primarily mean something entirely different. *I* took the post to be anti-pc, that gwz thought it silly that some would no longer be comfortable with the song as new innuendo has arisen both relating to gender (women, as well as men now in the military) and sexual orientation.
Until proven otherwise, I'm not sure offense was intended.
I certainly could be wrong, but that's my initial reaction.
mm
mm, you may be right--there's some unhappy history behind our paranoia(s).
HEY GWZ, WHAT DID YOU MEAN WHEN YOU CHANGED JOHNNY TO JUANITA?
THANKS,
MILO
Sometimes he has the silly notion that the best way to get an answer is to ask a plain question rather than endlessly agonizing over possible interpretations as we normal people do. We try to be sure that he has a good supply of his medications. If he stays on them, he's harmless, mostly.
>You've come along way, Juanita!
Oh,my. I hope that I was not that inaccurate in my thinking that "Juanita" was close to being a feminine equivalent to Johnny.
"Janey" or "Jenny" simply slipped right past me yesterday. There must be some Sheenas in the Armed Forces, too, I'd imagine, by now. I don't see many women sailors, but I do run into a few soldiers and Air Force personnel. I've seen "Juanita"
on nameplates pinned to the chests of more than a couple of them. Anyway, it's likely that a few members of the Armed Forces named Juanita will be embarking on their "great adventure" someday soon. I heard a WW2 general use that term in the March Of Time series. This "PC Gone Mad" thread got me wondering, some of it focused somewhat on pieces of music: sing-along songs, hymns, etc. I really wonder how Pete Seeger approached his decision to participate in making some song lyrics politically correct for our times. I thought about that old patriotic ditty I mentioned. Then I thought about that Ol' Woody Guthrie
and all that righteous folk singing that went on since his time. I tried to imagine a band of teenage activist Chippewas singing "This Land Is My Land." My subjectivity yesterday was absolutely uninvolved with the one called WO'N.
In reply to:
a take-off on an ad for cigarettes marketed to women
Talking about products marketed specifically to women (we weren't? Well, we are now), I was wondering if someone could help me understand a TV ad. It's, obviously, shown here, but I think it must be international since the scenes and actors are generic rather than particularly Indonesian and the commentary is in English. We see scenes showing that various things that used to be particular to women (fashion, facials, and jewellery) are now indulged in by men as well. But now this company (I think it's Nokia but I'm so bemused by the ad that the name of the product completely passes me by) has produced a handphone specifically for women.
And I'm sitting there thinking, why? Do women use handphones differently from men? Is the space between their ears and their mouths markedly different? The handphones look much the same as any others. If they have special features which women would find more useful or desirable it's not mentioned.
Has anyone else seen this ad, and if they understand it could they let me in on the secret?
Bingley
the space between their ears
Be careful.
Is the space between their ears
Be careful.
...and their mouths markedly different?
Yet, somehow, Faldage can differentiate... please enlighten...
careful schmareful
[white]careful schmareful[/white]
Hey! What's wrong with a little out of context quoting among friends?
I thought I was doin' *us a favor by obfuscating (in my own mind) that we hooked up on the same "out of context" part of Bingley's context, yet continue to *not answer his inquiry.
My bad.
he he he
answer his inquiry.
Since I've never used a cell phone that I thought came near close enough to my mouth (it's always up around my cheek somewhere) I don't think anatomy has much to do with it. It's parbly one a nem thangs if you have to ask you'll never understand the answer.
Doesn't matter which kind. I'm waiting to hear what Musick has to say about mouths.
I'm sure, especially after the last time I said something about mouths... which, btw, I haven't heard the end of...
... no, really, I *haven't!
For Wordwind
http://wordsmith.org/board/showflat.pl?Cat=&Board=miscellany&Number=91061
Well, someone has to pay for the roads. We really can't have people not paying their fair share of taxes. Gosh. The next thing you know we might give tax breaks to poor people, and, per Leona, only the little people pay taxes.
All seriousness aside, I assume this refers to diesel engines. Why aren't the authorities actively encouraging this, since the oil they are using is (gasp) a renewable energy source? There shouldbe a ready market for someone to go around with two tanks on the back of a truck, one with clean veggy oil and the other with dirty. Sell clean, take away cheap, filter it to produce motor fuel, and sell it to the public while collecting the appropriate road use taxes. I'd use it.
