Loo-uh-vul


Thanks, FF! All this time I've been trying to pronounce it right for Jackie and could only manage Lureville! Hey, Jackie!!! I'm hiring Fallible as my Loo-uh-vul dialect tutor!

Which thumb do you use to hit the space bar? Can you change? Easily? SSF

The above statement is a non sequitur. WW

I know a non sequitur when I see one, and that ain't one... neither (pronounced ny-ther) was the next one...

First I apologize to Mme. Curie for missing her point about nuclear and nucleus. In my mad dash to jump on my horse and ride off in all directions I didn't notice that she was pointing out that you don't hear people saying nuculus for nucleus. There are at least two reasons for this. One of the reasons for the pronunciation nucular is that there is an extensive support system of other words ending in -cular, approximately four times as many as words ending in -culus given the relative numbers m-w.com gives when fed "*cular" versus "*culus". The other reason is that nuclear is considerably more common than nucleus with 7,410,000 google hits for nuclear versus 967,000 for nucleus. I suspect that if you listen you will hear nuculus, just not nearly as often as nucular.

The point of the thumb thing was that it is a set pattern in your muscles as is pronunciation.

As for intelligence having an effect on our ability to alter speech patterns learned early in life I have merely to point out that many otherwise intelligent people have great difficulty learning new languages after childhood and often those that do never speak it with a good accent. On the other hand, many people of average intelligence or below learn to speak foreign languages late in life and can speak like a native.

As for learning new pronunciations, the President of the United States has plenty more important things to worry about than how to pronounce nuclear. He could be coached for hours and practice saying "NOO-CLEE-ER" for hours and then have it all dissipate when he's up at the speaker's platform, as anyone who has experienced public speaking knows well.

Five minutes, Faldage. That's all I want. While he's brushing his teeth, for instance. He won't have to practice long. Honestly. After he spits out his toothpaste.

The thumb on space bar is muscular, true, as is speech. However, when we speak, we are actively engaging our minds. When we hit the space bar, we are using an automated response. I don't have to think "hit space bar" when I'm typing. I think of the words, type them out quickly, listen inwardly to the sound of the sentence I type, but I don't think "space" in between the words as I read over them. When I speak, however, I do think more consciously than when I hit the space bar. Carbohydrate, for instance. I used to pronounce it "carbohydrit" instead of "carbohy-drate". Somebody corrected me. So now when I speak the word carbohydrate, the little speech coach in my brain reminds me to employ the ATE sound instead of the IT one. (Who knows--carbohy'drit' may be an acceptable pronunciation by now. Thus progresses the language in its many-garbed parade of possible sounds.)

I still believe:

1. President Bush could quickly modify his pronunciation of 'nuclear'; if he cannot with a modicum of effort, well, at least he gave it a good shot (five minutes--honestly--while he's walking downstairs, for instance); learning to pronounce "nuclear" for President Bush would not be as hard or time-consuming as Faldage would have us believe;

2. Nuclear is an important word with important ramifications; it should be pronounced correctly;

3. Public speaking on a national level requires some discipline from its speakers, and they should attempt to use standard pronunciations when speaking on topics of importance;



4. Mispronunciations are somewhat different from allowances made for accent;

5. The mind is more consciously engaged when speaking to an audience than it is when hitting the space bar.

6. Yes, Faldage, President Bush is engaged in "more important" things than learning to tweak a pronunciation of a word. But he's not engaged in those more important things all of the time. He relaxes. He satisfies his curiosity. He reads. He yawns. He rides a horse or two. During those more relaxed times when he is exercising his curiosity about the language, he might think to tweak his pronunication of nuclear. I would never suggest that he so tweak when he's actively engaged in a crisis, just as I wouldn't try to tweak a pronunication problem of my own when I'm teaching.

Best regards,
WW

Here ya go, Dub. Make you a nappointment.

president@whitehouse.gov

. When I speak, however, I do think more consciously than when I hit the space bar. Carbohydrate, for instance. I used to pronounce it "carbohydrit" instead of "carbohy-drate". Somebody corrected me. So now when I speak the word carbohydrate, the little speech coach in my brain reminds me to employ the ATE sound instead of the IT one. (Who knows--carbohy'drit' may be an acceptable pronunciation by now. Thus progresses the language in its many-garbed parade of possible sounds.)

I agree, WW, that pronouncing a word correctly is a relatively minor habit to fix as opposed to a muscular reflex action like thumbing the space bar or being right or left-handed for that matter (and, BTW, Faldage, one can train themselves, in baseball, to be a switch hitter and to bat with both hands with a modicum of effort ).
I used to pronounce discombobulate as discom-boob-ulate (and I still like the latter better, dammit! ), but once I learned the error of my mispronunciation I immediately made the correction and have never lapsed back into the "boob" form unless it was intentional, because now I know it's wrong. Ditto hackneyed (pronounced hack-need)...I used to pronounce it hack-neyed as in eye. I think if Bush's error were brought to his attention he could correct it very quickly...but two things come to mind as to why this is not happening. 1. All his kiss-up staff and cronies have never pointed it out to him. 2. They caught it, but to correct it after his fluent use of the incorrect form would just highlight his linguistic foppery and provide fodder for columnists and the late night comics, so they prefer to just leave it alone....political expediency is the only approach these guys know or care about (they don't care about his intellectual stature or the example he sets for school children).

Hey...what we could all do is e-mail our favorite columnists (Dave Barry, Leonard Pitts Jr., Richard Cohen, Kathleen Parker, etc.) and point this situation out to them! Fight fire with fire, I always say!
(and be sure to send them the link to this thread! )

I wrote to President Bush, Faldage. This is what I wrote:

Dear President Bush:

Although I realize you have little spare time, I wish you would consider learning to pronounce "nuclear" correctly. When you give your speeches, you consistently mispronounce "nuclear" and your mispronunciation becomes a distraction from the content of your speeches. I have heard various people in your TV audience say that they were so distracted by your mispronunciation of "nuclear" that they couldn't concentrate on content; instead, they were counting the number of times you said 'nucular.'

I realize that people from different parts of the country speak with accents that do affect their pronunciation. However, when a person in your position speaks before audiences, I believe it is advisable to make sure that standard pronunciation is used so that the speaker is understood.

I am en elementary school teacher and I try to make sure that pronunciations I use in class are standard pronunciations. I also have a keen interest in how the language does change--how certain pronunciations that were not standard when I was young have become standard. However, in the case of "nuclear" your own pronunciation, which sounds like "nucular," creates the kind of distraction from content that I do not believe you would want. I am sure you want your audience to focus on your speech content rather than on a perhaps awkward mispronunciation. I write this suggestion respectfully. And, no, I do not believe you would lose one vote because you mispronounce "nuclear," but you would certainly gain some respect for pronouncing correctly an important word.

Best regards,
Theresa Ranson
Spring Run Elementary School
Chesterfield County Schools
Midlothian, VA

DubyaDubya writes to Dubya. You gotta love it!

Very good, Dub. I sincerely commend you for this action. I will have no more to say on the matter in this forum.

4. Mispronunciations are somewhat different from allowances made for accent;

As I have recently learned, history tells us that there are enough examples of how the pronunciation of the English and American Languages developed to prove that this statement is not sufficiently answering the question I posted twice earlier in this thread.

And I repeat... If the mispronouncer doesn't "know better" how long does it take 'til it no longer qualifies as a mispronouciation? [blank stare]

Here ya go, moose, er, muse...

If someone lives in a dark hollow up in the mountains and the handful of folks he communicates with understand him, and if he doesn't know it's a mispronunciation and none of
the other folks know its a mispronunciation and use it back...then it beomes a new word. Enlarging on this scenario, it is increasingly difficult in the modern world to coin a change in usage without the bulk of your listeners knowing it's a mispronunciation. So if everybody starts using nucular, not knowing its incorrect, because their leader chooses that usage, then it becomes a word...but the fly in the ointment is, the rest of the English-speaking world would have to fall in line, too. Since most people are NOT going to start using nucular instead of nuclear, and most people, in this case, are going to know nuclear is the correct pronunciation, then Bush is incorrect and the prospects for nucular becoming the new word for nuclear are almost nil. This, of course, would have to apply on a word to word basis...but I don't see this happening on a large scale anymore. With the influence of the mass media the proper option is always evident. Language is just not as vulnerable to the old verbal "pass the message along" aberrations, anymore. So, musick, when does a mispronunciation become a new word in this modern technological culture?...not likely anymore. Although, in the same respect, the rapidity of new coinage now spreads with lightning-like fury.

You gotta love it!

I do.
Three cheers for DubDub the direct!



Now, what else does Bush say wrong?...

Why do college presidents never become President of US? Woodrow Wilson was president of
Princeton before he was elected President of US. His pronunciation was probably excellent but
that does not seem to have made him a great president.

Can it be that peerless pronunciation is not predictive of prestigious presindencies?

Wilson wasn't all that bad a President. Certainly his successor was far worse.

Now, here are two trivia questions:

Who's the only union leader to become President?

Who's the only King to become President?

Both US presidents.

I remember Ronald Regan was president of actors' union, can't remember exact name.
A King who became president of US sounds trickier. Gotta ruminate that one.

Edit: A King who could have become President of the US:
William Rufus de Vane King, (1786-1853), 13th VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES.

Who's the only King to become President?


Ooooh! Oooh, ooooh! I know! Pick me! Pick me!
Also the only President never to be elected to nationwide office.. Gerald Ford, né Leslie Lynch King, Jr.

Faldage,

Why did he change his name. Weird.

But so did Clinton.

Sounds like Hollywood.

Ford, Gerald R(udolph) (1913- ),
Early Life (((copied from Encarta encyclopedia, then excess deleted)))
Ford was born as Leslie Lynch King, Jr., in Omaha, Nebraska. In 1913 his mother, Dorothy, left her husband (they divorced in 1914) and took her son to live with her parents in Grand Rapids, Michigan. At a church function, she met Gerald R. Ford, whom she married in 1916. Although he never formally adopted Dorothy's son, Ford gave her child his name-Gerald Rudolph Ford, Jr. That name became the future president's legal name in 1935.

Why did he change his name. Weird.

He was worried about the "right-to-life" issue. Lynch King