I hear the phrase "begging the question" frequently on the radio, television, and in miscellaneous conversations around me. It seems that I only rarely hear it used correctly (in its logical sense). Do other areas of the US and other countries also have people using this phrase literally, as in:
Radio announcer talking about senseless violence on civilians in foreign land: The atrocities of war beg the question of whether it is all worth it. Are the dying children worth the egotistic pride shown by the state's Parliament?
BTW, here's a logical definition (from one of my favorite dictionaries, next to Ambrose Bierce's
Devil's):
http://skepdic.com/begging.html
It would be interesting to know how the phrase was coined. The word "beg" as defined in the dictionary does not seem to make any sense if you try to parse the phrase a word at a time.
it's not about parsing the phrase, it's just another sense of the word beg.
6. To take for granted without warrant; esp. in to beg the question: to take for granted the matter in dispute, to assume without proof.
1581 W. Clarke in Confer. iv. (1584) Ffiij, I say this is still to begge the question. 1687 Settle Refl. Dryden 13 Here he's at his old way of Begging the meaning. 1680 Burnet Rochester (1692) 82 This was to assert or beg the thing in Question. 1788 Reid Aristotle's Log. v. §3. 118 Begging the question is when the thing to be proved is assumed in the premises. 1852 Rogers Ecl. Faith 251 Many say it is begging the point in dispute. 1870 Bowen Logic ix. 294 The vulgar equivalent for petitio principii is begging the question.
The vulgar equivalent for petitio principii is begging the question.
One can hardly blame hoi polloi for misinterpreting such a nice point when the only use of this aberrant definition is in the phrase in question.
It's certainly not the only instance of a "proper" definition changing in the common speech from what it meant originally.
Faldage dijo: It's certainly not the only instance of a "proper" definition changing in the common speech from what it meant originally.
Now, c'mon, F... I think that's a moot point.
Fiberbabe thinks that's a moot point.
Silly girl.
Let's see some of you beggars "beg" something other than a question.
well, without giving it too much consideration, and merely referring to the citations cited above: begging the meaning; begging the point in dispute.... oh, here's a use for the first instance: begging the meaning of the word beg.
I supposed that everyone had been hoping to avoid this, but
all right, I will make the move, ya buncha chickens!
http://wordsmith.org/board/showflat.pl?Cat=&Board=miscellany&Number=40
Dr. Bill wants me to "beg" something other than a question.
I beg your pardon?
Jackie kindly points out that time back way back (on the zeroth anniversay of this board's birth, if memory serves) Bryan (a New York State college professor) asked Is anyone else sick and tired of people misusing the phrase "to beg the question" ?
I'm tired of people complaining about this so-called "misuse".
jackie, that (original) begging-the-q-thread is undoubtedly a microcosm of AWADtalk, compleat with a 180-degree turn on my part!
...and faldage fumes
I'm tired of people complaining about this so-called "misuse".so why didn't *you call a yart?!
So when do you think the popular definition of "to beg the question" will make it into the dictionaries. I can't believe it is too far off since you even see the incorrect use in newspapers - accepted (or passed over) by editors.
Next time we have a dictionary editor on CHAT we should ask.
Myself when young did eagerly frequent
Doctor and Saint, and heard great Argument
About it and about: but evermore
Came out by the same Door as in I went.
Did you never get trapped in a revolving door?
Let's see some of you beggars "beg" something other than a questionWhich brings to mind "Beggar's Banquet," one of the greatest rock albums ever recorded! So why don't we have one?...a Beggar's Banquet, I mean...an interthreadual potpourri of easy pickins'! Who'll bring the food?...Who'll bring the drink? Who'll get The Rolling Stones to play? Who'll chase me away for posting a phrase like
interthreadual potpourri?...ouch!
W'ON challenges: Who'll chase me away for posting a phrase like interthreadual potpourri?...ouch!
I will.
I will.Thanks, AnnaS...
somebody had to do it! But I was wonderin', just a bit, about the, uh, absence of a wink or a smile?
somebody had to do it! Not to worry, Darlin'-- if anybody chases you off, I'll chase after and bring you right back. I do have teletransportation powers, you know--right, Marianna?
WO'N,
Thanks. And here you go, for the benefit of others:
... in my own pathetic wry way, I try.
btw, your PM isn't working??!!
Thanks for the link, Jackie. When posting questions, I usually check the archives about half the time. I'd better make it all the time from now on. After rereading the old messages, I'm surprised at how few of the current regulars are listed there.
When posting questions, I usually check the archives about half the time. I'd better make it all the time from now on.Not to worry, Sweetie. It's often interesting to see what newer people have to say. But this particular one struck a chord, in that at the time, we lamented loudly over how that thread was going on, and on, and on.
Thinking of some threads since then, I got quite a laugh, remembering our lamentations! Chee, we didn't know we had it so good!
When I first joined the board, over a period of a few weeks I trawled back through the whole of the archive (mind, it twarnt so big then!) and I remembered this thread, Jackie. But my searches drew a blank - think I searched only on 'begs' +the question. Thanks for disinterring it for disinterested parties
I think that the "Yart" concept stinks. If some newcomer wants to post about something that was discussed six months ago, I don't think they ought to have to go way back and read all the old crap. The oldtimers can simply ignore it. There are not enough new posts as is, why discourage any of the newcomers? I still resent bitterly being told to look up "ayleurs" and spending two hours on it, and it sure as hell was not worth it.
Dr. Bill, I think a YART it is as "stinky" as the herein emoticons constricting our verbal sensibilities into certain boundries. It is useless without a link pointing out the *issue... almost like copying a whole post to respond the same way to a different question
.
Like mav, I did spend my first few weeks here digging into the complete (much shorter) history of the people and posts available... because I believed pesonalities were valuable enough (I was correct IMHO) to take the time to *attempt to taste. A YART is just one of the (limited) flavors that life offers in this vein.
I remember asking IP to dig deeper into the history of posts... not to criticize (like I have any propensity for that
) but to open to him what I thought at the time was a necessary insight into the people he was "conversing" with... YARTing may be the "call" but not the intent...(for me, that is).
It certainly helps when Pooh-bahs, who clearly know, lend a hand... invisible or not.
>I think that the "Yart" concept stinks.
and that, itself, is a yart, bill. and I hate this feeling that I need to defend my coinage -- but the concept is (of course) a two-edged sword. it can be used (per jackie) to inform that something interesting or amusing exists, or it can be used in exasperation. i'm sure it has been used both ways. [shrugs]
scathing, even scatalogical, terms...Geez, Max, wha'd I miss?!
Max demands : Lighten up guys!
I've already had my say on this sore point, so I'll be brief. Yart related ribbing is fine for regulars (trying to avoid being scatological), but many a fresh 'maverick' has not returned due to the 'light-hearted' derision achieved through innocently asking a question - this is undeniable.
Anyway, here's another thread about 'begging the question' for Brandon:
http://wordsmith.org/board/showthreaded.pl?Cat=&Board=words&Number=13000
> it is in exhortation, not as a demand
You're just begging for it, eh! :-)
To earnestly advise or to demand, that is the question.
In the end it does matter two hoots what you intended your imperative usage to be, but what it was understood to be. And I say it was a demand. Considering I did misquote you, I will still (against my better judgement), (reluctantly) accept your explanation (this one time) (as a favour).
trapped in a revolving door?
I mo beg off from this one.
I do know a long joke that involves being trapped in a revolving door.
You do that veteran.
This 'begging the question' phrase has salted many an old wound round here - it's probably a wise turn.
What was that tag again?...
Rapport was established only superficially
This is the first time I have ever done this. People, let me repeat myself: It's often interesting to see what newer people have to say. But this particular one struck a chord, in that at the time, we lamented loudly over how that thread was going on, and on, and on.
I was not calling a "yart". For the third time, this particular one struck a chord. Even if I had been calling a "yart", to me that is not necessarily a negative thing.
I am quite willing to see it as someone telling me that there is info. that I or others might want to look at.
If I had known that that post would bring out all this
negativism, I would not have made it. I will say that we
old-timers did not seem to realize the effect that using this kind of tactic would have on newcomers, but since so many of you have pointed this out to us, this behavior has pretty much ceased. There really is no need to keep bringing it up. If apologies were made, they were made. If they weren't, it's a bit late now, but just in case, I apologize.
but just in case, I apologize
Me too!
what on earth is everyone on around here - and who's got mine?! 8<)
what on earth is everyone on around here
Would folks kindly see my post of Tue Jul 31 06:36:41 2001
in I & A, under Memorial: how to contribute?
I know that we can't help getting upset at times, but.
I also keep in mind that I am so thankful that the last words my beloved friend got from me were words of love, and how I would hate it if the last words I got from or gave to someone I cared about were ugly. Actually, come to think of it, it wouldn't matter who it was--I hate to think of anyone's final words being remembered as ugly. We never know when something might happen, people. [/sermon]
To try to get everyone back into our usual jolly humor, and relative to "beg", why don't we all just say, like H*Y*M*A*N K*A*P*L*A*N, "I big depotment." No, that has nothing to do with a department store. If you've never read it, I highly recommend The Education of Hyman Kaplan by Leo Rosten. A real classic for linguaphiles and screamingly funny. I haven't been able to google it to provide a link, but I did see a link to Amazon to buy it.
Shouldn't that be H*Y*M*A*N K*A*P*L*A*N?
Bingley
...clearly intended in jest. Lighten up, people! 
...those rare occasions when I resort to the imperative, it is in exhortation, not as a demand. So there! 
...In the end it does matter two hoots what you intended your imperative usage to be, but what it was understood to be... I object!
Doesn't *anyone take these emoticon thingies seriously?
b'youth - Your generosity exceeds your honesty...
>Doesn't *anyone take these emoticon thingies seriously?
some would use them as a cover for saying really nasty things. I seem to remember dr. bill saying this is the reason he wouldn't ever use them -- if what you say can't stand alone, maybe you should consider not saying it at all. (my apologies, bill, if i've misrepresented your views ;)
tsuwm - your point is well taken... if I assume I understand it.
Emoticons may hurt the process of understanding (especially the way I use them
) but as long as one is aware of the potential for misunderstanding, and can take the time to correct it... they exist for a reason (although ®actually why may be in question).
...if what you say can't stand alone, maybe you should consider not saying it at all. To this, I say, they stand with words as part of what I say. There are times when I don't use them, and I would be happy to explain to anyone what they mean when I do use them, if my point in using them hasn't been taken.
These aren't the only form of communication that needs clarifying... that is why this board exists.
I would expect more "questions" regarding my use of elipses than emoticons, but, then again, I expect nothing...really.
...and I pointed no cyber-fingers (I use them my own self). I'm just sayin'....
Yeah, like Max said. This medium is devoid of body-language nuance (she said, merrily stating the obvious), hence the emoticons. How many times has my dry humor been mistaken for something other than humor, because I failed to use a
or
?
~~~~
Meanwhile, Max, please say that "kick the neighbour's cat" is just an expression....
or course you wouldn't kick the cat.. its a well known fact that you kick the dog or the bucket, and as for the cat, if there is enough room, you swing it, or failing that, figure out a way to skin it!
either way, the cat comes back!
one emoticon that always irked me in text mode was the way LOL was used. folks would tack in on to the end of something they just typed and it always looked (to me) like they were just tickled pink at their own wit, and I was being *urged to see the humor of it all. now, I could see using it to respond to someone else's post, but laughing at one's own joke.... I tend to have the same reaction to other forms.
Anybody ever play "kick the emoticon"? [the-no-emoticon-emoticon]
kick the neighbour's cat
Have my cat. Please.
HEY !!!
just lay off the cats, willya !!!!
Any one wishing to kick, swing or skin their cat, or their neighbours cat (isn't there a biblical injunction against that,? there should be: "Thou shalt not kick thy neighbours cat, nor covet his wives") will have to kick, swing or skin ME FIRST !!!!!!!!!
Come all ye kittens that labour and are sorely pressed and lay you down beneath my shady leaves! Let me lead you on to a land flowing with milk and catnip!
Our Commando writes :Come all ye kittens that labour and are sorely pressed and lay you down beneath my shady leaves! Let me lead you on to a land flowing with milk and catnip
Indeed, dear Rhuby ... and may I intrude with a sidebar on adopting pups and kittys ? Go first to your local vets ... they often know of good dogs and cats in neeed of loving homes... because current owner can no longer care for a pet or has a move that precludes taking a pet with them or because the family cannot take in a pet when the owner has died. That way, the vet has a health record for your adopted animal.
If the vet has no adoptees, try the local shelter or the breed rescues ... (any vet or shelter is glad to show you a list of local-to-you Rescue People, libraries often have lists, too) oft times a rescued pup or cat has been ill used and needs lots of love, in return they are so loving and grateful it breaks your heart.
I have always loved cats. But far too many people are irresponsible about failing to limit their pets' reproduction. What is worse, they just stop feeding the kittens, forcing them to prey on wildlife and breed uncontrollably in the wild.
Cats are fine as long as they don't go to the bathroom everywhere except outside, don't throw up every once in a while, and aren't so old that humans of their age are legally dead.
ROTFLMAO that one's for you, tsuwm!
I love that comic strip!
ASp, sotto voce
that one's for you, tsuwm! but... it was appropriately positioned!?
oh, that was probably your point. never mind.
http://members.aol.com/tsuwm/
Great cartoon, Faldage - thanks!