Linguists, awaken. Here's a transplant
American Sign Language (ASL) has something called a classifier. Most English-speakers aren't aware these exist because they are mostly dead in our language (since long before the Dark Ages). In spoken language, a classifier is a morpheme (syllable or letter combination) you can add to a word to "classify" its semantic class, verb type, shape, orientation, etc.
For example, in Brandonese (made up language), suppose the following suffixes (also applies to prefixes and infixes) existed:
-li means vertically-oriented tall and skinny
-la means vertically-oriented short and stocky
-pi means horizontally-oriented long and skinny
-pa means horizontally-oriented short and thick
and finally, the word for a stone pillar is kolo
If I visited a decimated Greek temple, I could say in Brandonese that I saw many "kolola and kolopi" but few "kololi and kolopa." You'd understand I meant that most skinny columns were on their side while most thicker columns were still standing.
In ASL, there are classifers that describe objects that are saliently flat (both 2D and 3D), rounded (with various sizes from 2-inces to about 3-feet in diameter), arching, rough, tall and skinny, vehicular, four-legged, etc, etc. This makes the language extremely visual in a very small number of movements.
I could say using one classifier and a little body movement (note I never used a sign) that a car sped down a winding road at those New England 12% grades and swerved off to the left side of the road and rolled four times.
Wow, my post was getting long. I should practice that time-honored laconic tradition of shutting up and getting to the point. With the classifer issue (cloudily) on the table, can anybody think of some good English classifiers?
I know that the sn- prefix used to classify the nose (snicker, sneeze, snoop, snot, etc.) and that the gl- prefix used to classify light (glimmer, glare, glory, etc.) Others?
Brandon
some good English classifiers?
I think any of the examples you mentioned are leftovers from long before we called our language English. They probably date back to something like Proto-IndoEuropean or even earlier (we need a real linguist on this forum). This reminds me of the way some languages treat what we laughingly refer to as gender (no relation to sex at all, just a way of categorizing different objects). These languages might have one gender for long thin objects, another for round objects and still another for flat objects.
Brandon, you have instilled in me a fervent desire to learn ASL - what you've described is just incredibly fascinating to me.
Now, you say that you could communicate that complex tale about the perils of driving in New England (as a native Bostonian, I know such points are important to communicate). And you say you could communicate it without using a sign. I don't want to quibble over how ASL denotes its various components, but I want to be sure I understand - the classifiers are communicated via signed language, right? Is there such a clear distinction between them and the actual signs?
In the very clever and clear Brandonese example you've given, the suffixes seem as if they'd be meaningless without the base word (that is "li" wouldn't really communicate anything, but "kololi" presents a clear image). But in ASL, it seems that the suffixes can stand alone. How is it that the suffixes (i.e. the classifiers) can communicate concepts like "car" and "road," which seem like they'd be the base words to which suffixes would attach?
Finally, at the risk of seeming over-literal - please tell me that there is not a classifier for "New England," and that that part of your example was meant more figuratively. If it existed, would it be a koloNE? (not since the Revolution, I guess)
Post-finally - the only thing that comes to mind that even vaguely resembles a classifier comes from Spanish. When one wishes to emphasize a particular quality about something, one adds the prefix "re-" to the adjective, so something that is really bueno is rebueno, and beans that have been cooked a long time are refritos (not refried, as it's typically translated). But this simply adds emphasis to the base word, it doesn't change its nature or provide more information about it.
one adds the prefix "re-" to the adjective, so something that is really bueno is rebueno
Comes from the Latin prefix re- which was an intensifier. The repetition meaning that we English speakers seem to have assigned to it was a special case. But then as I understand there is a way in ASL of indicating that something is repeated rather than done just once.
I understand there is a way in ASL of indicating that something is repeated rather than done just once.
In ASL (like many other languages, none Western, though), repetition and plurality is often shown through reduplication. To sign that there were two cups on the table, you could sign TWO CUP or you could just sign CUP twice to indicate plurality.
Maybe there is reduplication in English. What does the Eastern prison Sing Sing translate as from its native language (isn't it Native American?)? Any examples of reduplication in English?
Brandon
A classifier in ASL is like the -li in spoken language: it is a smaller component that adds meaning. In ASL, I "classify" the vehicle by using a specific handshape. I then manipulate the handshape in a variety of ways (movement, palm orientation) and manipulate my body and face to provide meaning.
I suppose you could say I used the sign for CAR because I used the classifier for a car, but linguists would argue that one should keep the two groups separate. Widely swinging the CAR classifier shows the winding road. A Widened eyes, an O-shaped mouth, and the jerking of the CAR convey speed. The body also swings with the CAR, and when it rolls off a cliff, the CAR rolls and the body shadows its movement. I threw in the NE 12% as extraneous info.
The classifier doesn't mean much of anything unless it is manipulated or used somehow. If I purely showed you the classifier CAR, there wouldn't be any meaning assigned to it. Even if I wanted to communicate that the car existed and nothing else (Latin erat), I would need to add a certain type of movement to convey that "being."
Brandon
examples of reduplication in English
Teeter-totter or see-saw, supposedly from its continuous back and forth motion.
I suppose you could say I used the sign for CAR because I used the classifier for a car, but linguists would argue that one should keep the two groups separate
Sounds almost like a polysynthetic language.
I suppose you could say I used the sign for CAR because I used the classifier for a car
I promise I will let this issue rest soon, but I've got another question: does the above mean that there are unique classifiers for particular attributes of a car (e.g. a long car, a short car), which are distinct from, say, the classifiers for a stone column? I had assumed the classifiers would be common to all base words. That is, that there would be a single classifier for "tall" and it would be applied to trees, people, kolos, etc.
I think I'll go to the link you gave now.
Hyla,
Not all classifiers can be used to describe things; that is to say, they are not general base forms to be applied to everything. Using the stone column example, I could say that -li and -la are only applicable to inantimate objects, and that if we were talking about animate objects, it would have to be -bi and -ba.
The classifier used in the CAR example is the classifier for any vehicle. It isn't polysynthetic because the signer uses the handshape and motion very distinctly different when it is "classifying" compared to merely being used as a sign.
You could classify something as being flat and smooth, but logically, that classifier would only apply to physically existing objects that could fit into that category (sheet of paper, calm waters, Pergo flooring, and even a metaphorically-used poker face).
When signing or classifing CAR, you could signify a long car by using a specific arm movement (farther from the body), puckered lips, and a head tilt to the side. You could convey a short car by holding the sign or classifier in tight to the body, keeping your head pulled up and back, and piercing the lips together tightly.
My apologies for the longwindedness. In all the on-line discussions I've had with others (including graduate classes in ASL linguistics), we always struggle with written forms of conveying such intricate visual detail. I'm still waiting for the digital video revolution...
Brandon
Indonesian has classifiers too, though not as elaborate a system as Brandon describes for ASL. Indonesian classifiers are mainly used in counting things, e.g.,
dua ekor kucing (two cats, ekor literally means tail and is used as the classifier for animals)
tiga batang rokok (three cigarettes, batang literally means tree trunk and is used as the classifier for cylindrical objects)
empat lembar foto (four photos, lembar literally means sheet of paper and is used for small flat objects)
lima bidang tanah (five plots of land, bidang means field and is used for big flat objects)
enam buah mobil (six cars, buah means fruit and is used for objects that don't have their own classifier)
tujuh orang guru (seven teachers, orang means person and is used for people).
They're mainly used in more formal language and can be omitted without changing the meaning. Indonesians often try and use piece or unit as a classifier in English. Five piece car to mean five cars, for example.
Bingley
Brandon offers his apologies for the longwindedness.
Apoplogize not, good Brandon. This is extremely fascinating and just what this board is here for.
Thanks for the Indonesian lesson in classifiers. I especially liked the tiga batang rokok (three cigarettes, batang literally means tree trunk and is used as the classifier for cylindrical objects) . Maybe the tobacco companies can include that imagery in their campaigns...
Brandon
Thought I'd posted this but cannnot find it, so ...
For finger spelling with pictures illustrating how-to :
http://dww.deafworldweb.org/asl/abc/az.html I had posted the home page but upon checking the plain .org address it says discontinued.
Know any reason why Brandon?
thank you Bingley-- you included the only word from Indonesian that i was conscious of knowing..
tujuh orang guru-- and now i can count-- dua, tiga, empat, lima, eman, tujuh-- well amost count-- one pretty important number missing..
English has some classifiers, in the form of suffixes-- for small, een( from the irish)-- eeny meeny-- very tiny, or smithereens or ette from the french-- luncheonette or cigarette-- and one for about --ish sevenish or redish and in US-- for political scandel we now have -gate (watergate or monicagate, or whitewatergate)
i think there are others too. Most are vestages, but like doubled words- (attitude, schmatitude, or zig-zag) they are not the normal way of intensifying meaning-- but will occationaly crop up.. and they are understood-- gate is very well understood!
an other thread discussed some of the very old (and rapidly disappearing) feminizers.. actor (actress), aviator (aviatrix) waiter, (waitress), steward, etc. the feminist movement has helped.. but these classifers were disappearing even with out that trend.
http://dww.deafworldweb.org/asl/abc/az.html
I had posted the home page but upon checking the plain .org address it says discontinued.
Know any reason why Brandon?
DeafWorldWeb has been having its ups and downs recently. Not exactly sure why typing in the home address doesn't work, so stick to the extended version and backtrack.
Brandon
In reply to:
and now i can count-- dua, tiga, empat, lima, eman, tujuh-- well amost count-- one pretty important number missing..
You had to ask, didn't you? 
Satu = one, for example satu meja (one table). But there is also a prefix for one (like English has bi- for two), se-. The prefix is used with classifiers, so sebuah meja, seorang guru, etc.
The prefix is also used in higher numbers:
sepuluh ten, duapuluh twenty
sebelas eleven, empatbelas fourteen
seratus one hundred, delapan ratus eight hundred
seribu one thousand, sembilan ribu nine thousand
Now class, seratus enambelas ribu lima ratus sembilanpuluh satu = ?
Bingley
Now class, seratus enambelas ribu lima ratus sembilanpuluh satu = ?
oo oo, I know!
116 591
Betul. (that's right)
Bingley
tiga batang rokok (three cigarettes)Just a query: is
rokok directly related to Dutch
roken, meaning "to smoke"?
If so, I find it interesting that it should be used in Indonesian... May I venture that this word only refers to cigarette or tobacco smoking and that there is another word family that refers to "natural" smokes, such as that of a fire etc.?
[having-for-the-moment-a-bit-of-very-idle-time-on-my-hands-e]
Marianna
I'll wait to hear if rokok is from the dutch-- but it wouldn't surprise me-- after all the dutch east india company had colonies in indonesia.. the first time i ever had indonesian food was in Amsterdam.
i love it– i convinced some work mate to eat at an indonesian place– they had some simple stuff-- i had a "chili" made with anchovies.. little dried anchovies.. complete with their heads.. and delicately used my chop sticks to pick up a little head (the best part, the bones are crunchiest) complete with eye balls.. No one wants to eat there again (at least not with me)..
actually-- all the food was interesting-- but some of the translations sounded very un appetizing .. Instead of "tripe" they had-- "Stewed cow stomach" and instead of Chitlins (or chitterlings) they had "Pig intestine" and the dish i had-- anchovies in a chili pepper sause-- i would never thing to call "chili". A rose by any other name might smell as sweet--but food names do conjure up certain images-- and some are less appetizing!
Faldage - This adds new meaning to my Dad calling my brother and I "P
eat and ReP
eat".
ofTroy - The meaning of "-gate", although not all that clear
, has a certain sonant transparency coming from its original form that us 'older folk'
who were there as the original "foolishness" unfolded have which young'ns don't.
The lack of dignity assigned to those working in the service industry (the public version of M+S) prompts me to not stoop so low as to take away their gender (did I say that
), and I'm not sure I have noticed any significant decrease (in 'waitress' at least) as you suggest (although most I know thumb their collective noses at anything with a mass motivation for PC.)
Was the Latin -ismus and the Greek -ismos refering to the same condition?
In reply to:
is rokok directly related to Dutch roken, meaning "to smoke"?
Presumably that's where it comes from. I didn't know the Dutch word. As of troy said, Indonesia is basically the independent Dutch East Indies.
rokok means cigarette, merokok means to smoke (a cigarette or tobacco), perokok smoker
asap is smoke, or fumes. berasap give off smoke, or be smoky, mengasapi to smoke (think kippers) or to fumigate, pengasapan fumigation, smoking (of kippers, again).
Bingley
I know that the sn- prefix used to classify the nose (snicker, sneeze, snoop, snot, etc.) and that the gl- prefix used to classify light (glimmer, glare, glory, etc.) Others?
I came across another classifier remnant in English last night as I was browsing David Crystal's Language Encyclopedia: sl- for things are are disgusting or low (slither, slug, slime, etc.)
another classifier remnant in English How about
gr-, for things unpleasant: grimy, gritty, greasy, gross, grungy, gringo
