In the AWAD mail today, there is a fascinating graphic of the tree diagram of all languages of the world emerging from Indo-European. Unfortunately I do not know how to load an image - been here so long, but never found the need.
It is just beautiful!

you mean this one ?

Yeah! Thank you. I just thought it deserves a place on Awadtalk! Gorgeous picture!

I was wondering where the Pacific Languages stemmed from, but now I see its just Indo/European

a tree diagram of all languages of the world emerging from Indo-European

Just the Indo-European languages, so the diagram excludes most of the 4,000 to 5,000 languages in the world.

Help, please! The term 4-5K languages? Japanese etc.?

4-5k

four to five thousand.

Thanks, I thought that after I posted it. At first
I thought it might refer to something specific like
the Y2K scare, back in 1999.

The term 4-5K languages?

I've changed it in the post to be expanded.

Thanks, but I was probably the only one who did not
understand. Looks good now, though.

You can't DO that! You've rendered Luke's and buffy's posts irrelevant! [Just pretending outrage]
Yes maybe the diagram is not all inclusive, but I just liked the way it was laid out. I read a book on mind maps once. Apparently that is how we think. Apparently, that is how our thoughts look if diagrammed.

I believe that, Avy. Sometimes one word sends me off in a direction and then out to another and another. It would be good to have access to a reference map like that to get back to the original thought.

I read a book on mind maps once

Do you have a title or author? There's a good book which discusses (amongst other things) how diagrams (like trees) developed in European books: Walter J. Ong Ramus, Method, and the Decay of Dialogue: From the Art of Discourse to the Art of Reason 1953. Peter Ramus was a humanist and an education theorist in the 16th century. Anyway, I am not convinced that we know what thought or thinking is (really) and how thoughts are "mapped" out in the brain. A tree diagram like the one in the link are good at showing relationships between languages, but there was (early on) a competing map of language development to the orthodox Stammbaum theory (family tree), and it was called the Wave Theory. That languages develop over time like the waves on a pond after a pebble has been dropped in, overlapping and expanding waves of change. While we're on it, some linguists who study semantic fields (i.e., how words can be grouped together by meaning rather than form) draw diagrams similar to the one under discussion. (See the Wikipedia article on tree model.)

No. Too long ago that was. I borrowed it from my Swiss boss at the time. Decay of dialogue? Sounds interesting. Is it about the death of aesthetics in dialogue? Does it say why rhetorical devices are more or less dead? Regarding mind maps, do google mind maps... That was pretty much what the book was about. I am not sure the mind maps haven't been subconscoiusly inspired by the shape of the neuron. There is no reason why the node should be so spider shape or the base of the branches so thick. So that's how your thoughts look like a neuron.

If mine could be mapped that well, and looked so
magnificent, then even I would be impressed.yuk

John McWhorter feels that there is more to it than a simple tree diagram. I particular he believes that English grammar was highly influenced by Welsh grammar in its (English's) early days in England and that Proto-Germanic was influenced by a Semitic language in its early days, citing the fact that about one-third of the words in the Germanic languages are not from any known PIE roots and that the ablaut series for strong verb tenses is seen in no other branch of Indo-European. Read all about it in his Our Magnificent Bastard Tongue.

Sounds good. I've added it to my wish list there.
I would hope it is not too complicated.

just as an aside, Amazon's bargain price is six(6) dollar-bucks, and yet the Kindle price is more than double that(!) at $12.99. they really need to do something about their pricing.

I particular he believes that English grammar was highly influenced by Welsh grammar in its (English's) early days in England

Hard to say one way or another without seeing the evidence. Conjecture is fine, as are SWAGs, and I do enjoy McWhorter's linguistics, if not his politics. Off the top of my cold-addled head, Celtic languages are VSO and Germanic ones tend to be SOV changing towards SVO.

and that Proto-Germanic was influenced by a Semitic language in its early days, citing the fact that about one-third of the words in the Germanic languages are not from any known PIE roots and that the ablaut series for strong verb tenses is seen in no other branch of Indo-European.

This same, well-known situation, has led others (e.g., Theo Vennemann) to suggest that Germanic developed from a creole mid-way between (Pan-)European and Proto-Indo-European. There was a philologist in the 19th century who studied the Semitic substrate in Indo-European. It makes sense because a lot of technology and products came out of the Middle and Near East.

OTOH, ablaut is a huge part of Indo-European phonology and morphology. It alos exists in other languages (e.g., I have a book on ablaut in Moroccan Arabic). I have not read the book you link to -- yet.

His argument on the Welsh influence is based on the use of what he calls the meaningless "do", in particular in questions and the negative. E.g., "Do you come here often?" as opposed to the normal IE "Come you here often?" or "I don't drink milk" versus "I drink not milk."



Is the ablaut used to mark tense in any non-Germanic languages?

His argument on the Welsh influence is based on the use of what he calls the meaningless "do", in particular in questions and the negative.

Seems a mighty slim peg to hang such a pronouncement on. I'd have to look at his argument and then at Welsh. Any idea what other historical linguists have to say about it?

Is the ablaut used to mark tense in any non-Germanic languages?

Yes, but not only. It was originally something to do with the change from a tone system to a stress system of accent. You can see traces of ablaut in IE languages such as latin, Greek, and Sanskrit.

And, come to think of it, what were those Semites doing mingling with the Germans?

It probably is for the likes of us. The thing to do is not to be fazed by what don't understand and try to understand a bit more than you do.

He does admit it's controversial. You'd have to read the book but remember, it's not written for linguists. I forget if it has references to any of his more detailed studies.

He does admit it's controversial.

I also wonder if he based his observations on Modern Welsh or Old or Middle Welsh. It's quite possible that the periphrastic do formation entered Welsh from English. (The thing to do would be to speak with a couple of Celticists or Welsh philologists.)

It seems to me that do not V for V not is something that started to happened around early Modern English (16th century CE). The more I ponder it, the less seriously I take it.

Really good advice. Thanks.

I've just ordered it, so I'll know soon enough.

Still on my wish list: finances !