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Posted By: Logwood Simplification of insidious sentences - 12/23/05 08:12 PM
In the application-test for the translation college (which I am to submit within a week) they gave us particularly insidious sentences to see if we could figure them out. In most of them the "catch" was a no-brainer, but a few sentences did manage to get the better of me. Here they are:

1. It may be used in the hardness testing of plastics with pratically no change. (I'm not sure I see the catch here)
2. He took a car from the pool. ("pool" as in "storage", right?)
3. She crossed the green. (what does it mean? is it an idiom? should I just translate it as it sounds?)
4. The Federal Bank surprised Wall Street big time. (where's the catch here?)
5. Empty vessels make the most sound. (I know it's an idiom, what does it mean? I didn't manage to google an answer for that).

Would appreciate any help.
Posted By: sjmaxq Re: Simplification of insidious sentences - 12/23/05 08:24 PM
"green" here refers to a green "space" a park or other public area of greenery. It's a rather English sort of English, I suspect, often used in conjunction with the word "village".

"The Federal Bank surprised Wall Street big time"
My guess would be that the catch is the idiomatic nature of the phrase - "big time" simply meaning "a great deal" or "very much", with no literal connexion to time of any size.

"Empty vessels make the most sound." (I know it's an idiom, what does it mean?

People with nothing to say are the ones talking the loudest. Shakespeare's line "full of sound and fury, signifying nothing" expresses a similar idea. . If you bang on an empty vessel, it will make a lot of noise precisely because it's empty. Likwise, a person bereft of meaningful contributions to a discussion will balther on endlessly, hoping to obscure the absence of quality by the excess of quantity.
The test may come in trying to figure out what to do with them during the translation. But here;s my take:

1. "It may be used" is passive voice, and I would recast as follows: ONe may use the product in . . ..

2. Look up steno pool. It is an idiom for a reserve group. A term you might use in translating is fleet instead of pool. A carpool is a different thing altogether: a group of people who commute together in a shared vehicle.

3. A green is a common or a park. See Boston Common.

4. I don't see a catch.

5. The louder someone is (partcularly in a meeting), the less there is in the person's brain.

Guesses:
1. One might be confused as to whether the prepositional phrase "with..." modifies the "plastics", "testing of plastics," or "it."

2. That's probably close enough, but more, I think, like "reserve."
The main thing is not to use the same words as a swimming pool (unless it has a similiar connotation in the target language).

3. Well, one might make a cross at the sign of some green object - but it should be "transit the golf course" or "walked across the green field."

4. The actions of the Chairman of the Federal Bank surprised investors, etc., many of whom have jobs on Wall Street. (Something like that.)

5. I've never heard this, but I think it might mean something like:
The person who is devoid of ideas or any depth of personality chatters the most.
Posted By: tsuwm Re: Simplification of insidious sentences - 12/23/05 08:58 PM
>2. He took a car from the pool.

this indicates that there is a quantity of autos available to the organization, from which individual members thereof can avail themselves for business of said organization -- like a motor pool in the military.
Posted By: Logwood Re: Simplification of insidious sentences - 12/23/05 09:12 PM
That's as I suspected, tsuwm. Thanks (to everyone who replied)

As for:

1) I'm not quite sure what do you mean, TheFallibleFiend, maybe I just like to believe (self-delude) I'm too smart to even see the catch here..

2) I was able to found a satisfying word for "pool" in the context. And yes, the direct translation of "pool" in Hebrew only means "swimming pool".

3) Ah, I did not even consider that! but it makes perfect sense. I actually intended to translate "green" as the colour. But I get it now, and there's a word that means "lawn, green, grassplot", which I'm glad to use instead.

4) Ah, no troubles here then. I guess I'm just a paranoid sometimes.

5) got it! thanks.

edit; wuuoo... you guys never let me down.
Posted By: Logwood Re: Simplification of insidious sentences - 12/23/05 10:06 PM
In one of those insidious sentences they try to throw us off with "inflammable"... how lame is that eh? there are a total of 25; all sorts of slang and idioms, and sentences that looks the same but means different things... and even words that are problematic to translate to Hebrew... but I think (er, hope) I picked on every one of those skullduggeries...

I just hope the other people were dumb enough to fall for them, so I'll have a clear path for the internship. It's really unnerving not knowing who you're up against...
Posted By: inselpeter Re: Simplification of insidious sentences - 12/23/05 11:34 PM
1) I'm with fallible fiend: the prepositional phrase "with practically no change" could mistakenly be thought to modify "in the hardness testing of plastics." Also, "in the hardness testing of plastic" is an awkward construction, and might be confusing. It would be better cast "in testing the hardness of plastic."

"She crossed the green" means she entered the church on St. Patrick's day.
Posted By: sjmaxq Re: Simplification of insidious sentences - 12/23/05 11:42 PM
Quote:



"She crossed the green" means she entered the church on St. Patrick's day.




Are you serious? Given that the question was asked in an examination context, if your comment was in jest, would not indicating so be in order?
Posted By: inselpeter Re: Simplification of insidious sentences - 12/24/05 12:23 AM
my comment was in jest
Posted By: Logwood Re: Simplification of insidious sentences - 12/24/05 12:38 AM
Truth be told, I'm still not sure I understand the first phrase at all, particularly what the "change" in it signifies (i.e. modification or leftover?)
Posted By: maverick Re: Simplification of insidious sentences - 12/24/05 12:53 AM
> It may be used in the hardness testing of plastics with pratically no change.

The difficulty arises because this is fairly typical of colloquial English usage where speech order gets jumbled. Not only is “the hardness testing of plastics” an ugly construction as already noted, but the end phrase is modifying the start of the sentence rather than the adjoining part – it’s a sort of ‘infix construction’, which is a form of usage more prevalent in Ireland than many other parts of the Anglophone world. My recast for clarity would be:

It may, with very little change, be used to test the hardness of plastics.

edit: oh, and don't confuse 'change' meaning variation (in this example) with 'change' = definition 7b. The balance that remains over and is returned when anything is paid for by a piece of money greater than its price.
Posted By: inselpeter Re: Simplification of insidious sentences - 12/24/05 01:06 AM
>>It may, with very little change, be used to test the hardness of plastics.<<

Yes. And substituting "modification" might make it even simpler to understand:

"It may, with little modification, be used to test the hardness of plastics."

As to what the word "change" means here:

"It" presumably refers to a device or procedure that is ordinarily used for something other than testing plastics. The sentence says that if this device or procedure is slightly changed, it can be used to test for the hardness of plastic, as well.

**

Pardon me for confusing things about crossing the green; I understood you to have said you were done with the examination, but I was mistaken.
Posted By: Logwood Re: Simplification of insidious sentences - 12/24/05 01:12 AM
Ah. Thanks, thanks a lot. I got it pinned now.
Posted By: Logwood Re: Simplification of insidious sentences - 12/24/05 01:25 AM
Ah don't worry about it, inselpeter, I'm smart enough to figure you were joking. Besides, I'm so freakishly pedantic, that if I thought you weren't, I wouldn't let get away with that without more clarifications, explanations and explications. :P

Furthermore, I'll probably be done with it by the end of this month, so I got a lot of time; and I mean a lot!

Edit: I'm looking at that sentence again, it really is a crude construction. These guy go all the way to dupe us... not too shabby.
Posted By: maverick Re: Simplification of insidious sentences - 12/24/05 01:39 AM
> it really is a crude construction

yes... and fairly typical of real-world usage! Good luck
Posted By: inselpeter Re: Simplification of insidious sentences - 12/24/05 01:47 AM
A last note about "change." The potential confusion is that an unwary non-native speaker of English might think it refers to the plastic, and not to the subject of the sentence, "it." The potential confusion exists because "change" might be thought to refer to a "change of state" in the substance exalted noun, "plastics," which is not the subject of the sentence, and not to the lowly pronoun, "it", which is.

A further potential for confusion is that since the phrase "the hardness of plastic" refers to a physical quality of plastic, the temptation to attach the verb "change" to it, and not to the subject, "it," is reinforced.

Whew. I've been trying to make this clearer, but I'm afraid I'm just too tired.

I think the sentences were well chosen to demonstrate proficiency in dealing with specific difficulties a translator is likely to encounter in everyday English writing. It ain't easy. Fortunately, in everyday circumstances, there are usually people you can ask.
Posted By: Marianna Re: Simplification of insidious sentences - 12/24/05 10:57 AM
Quote:

>>It may, with very little change, be used to test the hardness of plastics.<<

Yes. And substituting "modification" might make it even simpler to understand:

"It may, with little modification, be used to test the hardness of plastics."

As to what the word "change" means here:

"It" presumably refers to a device or procedure that is ordinarily used for something other than testing plastics. The sentence says that if this device or procedure is slightly changed, it can be used to test for the hardness of plastic, as well.





As far as I can see, y'all have got it just right, which of course is no surprise...

Logwood: this sentence is absolutely typical of the technical English of manuals, instructions, operating procedures, specifications and such. If you continue working in translation, you're going to come across this type of stuff continuously!
Posted By: Logwood Re: Simplification of insidious sentences - 12/24/05 11:41 AM
If I do get the internship, I'll be translating subtitles for TV (most of the time with a handy script), so I doubt I'll run into these type of stuff continuously! not that I'm relieved, I love to know and crack everything when it comes to English.

Anyway, the thing that bothered me about the sentence is that "change" also means "money received back after paying for goods". That word in Hebrew also means "leftover, waste, extra"-- that's why I got confused in the first place. It was a rookie's mistake in translation I guess.

So this was a one-time-occurence as far as I'm concerned.
Posted By: Logwood "whine and dine"? - 12/24/05 02:23 PM
In one of the articles I need to translate tells about an Israeli reality show (similiar to "for love or money").

"...the contestants try to gain Sharon's affection as they "whine and dine" over a couple of months based at a villa in Caesarea."

My question is what do they mean by "whine and dine"? and the quotations are there for the record.
Posted By: inselpeter Re: "whine and dine"? - 12/24/05 02:27 PM
"to wine and dine" is to court someone's affection, interest, patronage, wallet, etc., by showing them a really good time, specifically, by buying them fantastic dinners and excellent wine.

"to whine" to is complain in an annoying, childlike way.

"to whine and dine" sounds counterproductive, or at least like a less than perfect evening out.
Posted By: Logwood far from out-of-sight? booby-prize? - 12/24/05 03:27 PM
Woouuu, it took you four minutes to answer since I posted. I'm genuinely scared, heh. Thanks for making it clear. I have another question. Questions as a matter of fact.

This is from the same article:

"Everyone knows that most blind dates are far from out-of-sight. Why would you want to suffer one in public? Especially as booby-prize Sharon has already reduced one contestant to tears."

By far from out-of-sight, it sounds like they mean "terrible", or "something you wouldn't like to witness"... but I've never heard this phrase before, not that I remember anyway. Anyone?

By booby-prize, do they mock that the guys are only in it for her boobs? or does the article calls her "stupid", as the exact definition of "booby" indicates?
"out-of-sight" means great, very cool, so yes, "far from o-o-s" would mean terrible. or at least lousy.

booby-prize in this case means she's not a great catch, so yes, stupid.
Posted By: inselpeter Re: far from out-of-sight? booby-prize? - 12/24/05 03:44 PM
"out of sight" ("outta sight") is a colloquialism that was current in the late 60s and early 70s (a period colloquially known as the 60s). It may be older, I don't know, nor do I know its origin. It means "great," "fantastic." If you really liked a woman, you might say "that chick's outta sight." Or, if a news item said Nixon got a pie in his face, you might just exclaim, "Outta sight!"

Something would be less than out of sight if it was, well, less than out of sight.

A "booby prize" is the prize you get if, instead of coming in first, you come in last. I guess because you're the "boob;" though I've never heard the word specifically used in that way, it could be -- a "boob" is, essentially, a loser.

The meaning you suggest, that the male party to the date is a boob, would be a double entendre (as would the meaning that Mr. Sharon is a boob). I don't read it that way though. To say that Sharon is the booby prize though, is an insult to him. [disclaimer: I add the last sentence only for the purpose of a complete answer and clarity]
Posted By: consuelo Re: far from out-of-sight? booby-prize? - 12/24/05 03:59 PM
Out-of-sight

This sentence is playing with double meanings. In the late 1960's people were using out-of-sight as a slang phrase to mean wonderful, gobsmacking, just outstanding!, while the literal meaning is out of public view. To preface out-of-sight with "far from" would indicate that the opposite was true in both meanings of the word.

A booby prize is generally a prize for the person that failed the best at whatever the first prize was being given for.

Edit Geez, Ip, you must have been posting while I was still composing.

Main Entry: 1boo·by
Pronunciation: 'bü-bE
Function: noun
Inflected Form(s): plural boobies
Etymology: modification of Spanish bobo, from Latin balbus stammering, probably of imitative origin
1 : an awkward foolish person : DOPE
2 : any of several tropical seabirds (family Sulidae, especially genus Sula)

from Merriam-Webster Online

A joke prize, usually given in recogition of a terrible performance or a last-place finish. Booby prizes are sometimes coveted as an object of pride and humor.
en.

wikipedia.org/wiki/Booby_prize
somebody got me on ignore?
Posted By: Logwood Two more insidious sentences - 12/24/05 05:36 PM
(gobsmacking? never heard that before. gobsmacking! I think I'll do some etymology work today...)

etaoin, methinks they simply wanted to elaborate. Real thanks for all the input! I'm all translated-out for today but will pick it up tomorrow.

Athough I noticed there are still two sentences I did not translate:

1. the total tube heat transfer surface area must be calculated. (not sure what sort of "tube" they mean.)
2. When you are a celebrity, gossip goes with the territory. (--I understand what it means, but having hard time putting it to words. How would you change the last part if you could?)
Posted By: maverick Re: Two more insidious sentences - 12/24/05 06:08 PM
1. the total tube heat transfer surface area must be calculated. (not sure what sort of "tube" they mean.)

The total heat-transfer surface area of the tube must be calculated.

2. When you are a celebrity, gossip goes with the territory.

As a celebrity, being the focus of gossip is part of the job.
Posted By: themilum Present at the Creation - 12/24/05 07:06 PM
The beat generation of the fifties found it cool for anything to be beyond the norm and "far Out" became de rigueur.

Feeling kinship with the beatniks but praticing one-upmanship to far out heights, the Hippies of the sixties code-worded "out-of-sight".

The three decades that followed produced few exciting new hip words because the people living within them were mostly dull.

Until resently.

"Over-the-top" isn't exactly hip, but hey, "any port in the storm" is def for a generation of button-down robots.
Posted By: consuelo Re: Two more insidious sentences - 12/24/05 07:23 PM
1) This is another shining example of technical writing.
not sure what sort of "tube" they mean This could be a type of pipe (flexible or not) or a transistor type tube. Context of the whole article should help you translate the word meaningfully.

No, Eta, I don't have you on ignore. I was writing my post when both you and IP posted. Since insel's post was long enough to take up the window space, I didn't see yours until much later.

2) Any person who is well known should expect that people will talk about them and if they don't know the truth, they'll make it up.
Posted By: Buffalo Shrdlu Re: too, more inside-ious sentences - 12/24/05 07:27 PM
> ignore

I winked! I winked!

Posted By: Logwood Re: too, more inside-ious sentences - 12/24/05 07:46 PM
There is no context, consuelo, it's a list of sentences!

I knew what the second phrase meant, was just looking for another way to put it.

thanks.
Posted By: consuelo Re: too, more inside-ious sentences - 12/24/05 08:17 PM
Is the Hebrew for tube the same in both meanings?
Posted By: inselpeter Re: too, more inside-ious sentences - 12/24/05 08:18 PM
Hey y'all, I'm taking my GMATS next month, would ye come along ?
Posted By: consuelo Re: too, more inside-ious sentences - 12/24/05 08:37 PM
I'm assuming that since Logwood was allowed to take the test home and given ample time to translate, he is expected to use whatever resources he has at his disposal to complete the work, much as any traslator would do IRL.
Posted By: inselpeter Re: too, more inside-ious sentences - 12/24/05 08:58 PM
I winked, I winked, too!
Posted By: Logwood Re: too, more inside-ious sentences - 12/24/05 10:19 PM
Haha

Yes, we were in fact encouraged to use every resource in our disposal. Of course, if they had known the people I would be asking are you, they might as well have given me the job already...

Seriously, what's a better resource to have than a forum of English logomaniacs? ...all in all, there are so many things intended to entrap you in this test, it's not even funny. I worked out most of them, and look forward for more. And I take my time. After all, I got time! I just hope others won't be as freakishly pedantic as I am. Most of them looked pretty stupid to tell the truth. Ah yes, I know, look can be deceiving.

When it comes down to it, I guess I just wanna be 100% sure of everything. The results of this test may lead me into (radically) different directions in life. But I have only little doubt I won't get it. As the saying goes: the only thing we can be sure of in this life is that we can't be sure of anything.

Anyway, I think I got everything figured out for now. I got only one more article (and a half) to translate and I'd be finally done with it.
Posted By: inselpeter Re: too, more inside-ious sentences - 12/24/05 10:22 PM
"Envision success, be ready for disappointment."
Posted By: Logwood Re: too, more inside-ious sentences - 12/24/05 10:26 PM
You would make a good doctor.
Posted By: consuelo Re: too, more inside-ious sentences - 12/24/05 10:31 PM
What a bunch of winkers
Posted By: Faldage Re: Two more insidious sentences - 12/25/05 12:20 AM
Quote:



1. the total tube heat transfer surface area must be calculated. (not sure what sort of "tube" they mean.)




As far as that goes, total tube heat or even total tube heat transfer might be some specific term in thermodynamics.
Posted By: Marianna Re: too, more inside-ious sentences - 12/25/05 05:24 PM
Quote:

"Envision success, be ready for disappointment."




Or "expect the best and prepare for the worst".

Logwood, I cannot even start to imagine how your examiners mean to assess you and your fellow candidates by giving you lists of sentences to translate without a context! In terms of translator training, I honestly think that a mere exercise in trap-recognition (no matter how clever the traps) cannot say all that much about the linguistic sensitivity in y'all.

Having said that, of course you must do the best you can, and it appears that you will do very well indeed. Best luck to you!
Posted By: Logwood Re: too, more inside-ious sentences - 12/25/05 06:19 PM
Oh, they gave us articles. 3 as a matter of fact-- all in different styles. But they didn't pose much of a problem for me as a few of these sentences did. In the meeting, the orator told us that nearly most of the mistakes of previous applicants were done in the "insidious sentences" page. That's why I was particularly worried about them, and wanted to be more than sure about each sentence.

Thanks
Posted By: tsuwm Re: too, more inside-ious adverts - 12/25/05 06:31 PM
Idiom
Huge selection, great deals on Idiom items.
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Posted By: Faldage Re: too, more inside-ious sentences - 12/26/05 12:55 PM
You want two more insidious sentences? I'll give you two more insidious sentences:

A) Time flies like an arrow.

2) Fruit flies like a banana.
Posted By: Logwood spot-on, inselpeter - 12/28/05 07:48 PM
Quote:

The meaning you suggest, that the male party to the date is a boob, would be a double entendre (as would the meaning that Mr. Sharon is a boob). I don't read it that way though. To say that Sharon is the booby prize though, is an insult to him. [disclaimer: I add the last sentence only for the purpose of a complete answer and clarity]




Heh, you guys and your lawyerlike disclaimers... I just wanted to say that I finally read the end of that article, and you were actually spot-on with that.

"...the name of the show lends itself to all sorts o political satire as long as the current prime minister is on the job."
Posted By: yeocomico Re: gobsmack - 12/29/05 09:30 AM
I recently read an interview with William H Macey, and noticed he used the term gobsmacking, remembered he also used it in ( I think) Happy, Texas. Had not heard it before, but it sounds like Minnisotoan, or Iowan.
Posted By: maverick Re: gobsmack - 12/29/05 02:06 PM
Hi yeo, welcome to the madhouse!


I’d say that’s from the UK, more probably. Gob is a word with many meanings, but the commonest is a crude or colloquial reference to the mouth – and its documented use in the OED predates the settlement of Minnesota or Iowa:

north. dial. and slang.
a. The mouth.
1550 Christis Kirke Gr. xx, Quhair thair gobbis wer ungeird, Thay gat upon the gammis.


There are plenty of gob~ words and phrases in regular use here, including gobsmacking to mean something like ‘truly amazing’, although interestingly the OED has nothing for either this form or in a hyphenated version. Guess it’s too new and irreverent to have found its way into widespread print yet!
Posted By: Buffalo Shrdlu Re: gobsmack - 12/29/05 04:01 PM
welcome, yeo.

being from the Great Plains, I can't say that I heard gobsmacking there, and would agree with mav that it seems a cross-pond term.

a good one!
Posted By: AnnaStrophic Re: gobsmack - 12/29/05 04:01 PM
Quote:

I recently read an interview with William H Macey, and noticed he used the term gobsmacking, remembered he also used it in ( I think) Happy, Texas. Had not heard it before, but it sounds like Minnisotoan, or Iowan.




Yo, yeo and welcome! And here I'd always thought the expression was Australian.

Anyway, I saw in your bio you enjoy "fictionary" -- I believe that is the same game as what we play around here, Hogwash. Check out the "yarak" thread in Wordplay and please do join us for the next round.

(off to listen for malapropisms from my cats...)
Posted By: Jackie Um...another word on green - 12/31/05 03:52 AM
Golf courses have greens. I doubt that that was the ref. in the test question. Possible, though.

Hey, Anna--been having some ups and downs, lately? "Yo, yeo". Note to all: I am getting ready to wink, now. Here goes:
What a wunch we are!
Posted By: wofahulicodoc Re: Um...another word on green - 01/01/06 01:34 AM
What a wunch we are!

I choose to interpret that as a portmanteau word rather than a spoonerism, and would endorse the sentiment entirely. wunch = wonderful + bunch

And as it's almost that time (actually past that time Eastpondially) - H A P P Y.. N E W.. Y E A R, everybody!
Posted By: Bingley Re: gobsmack - 01/18/06 04:36 AM
I've certainly heard and maybe even used 'gobsmacked' to mean flabbergasted, but I don't recall ever having heard 'gobsmacking' before.
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