FatherSteve asked about the origins of the expresion >"The Saracens are at the gate." <
but what about other expressions..
Nyer's eat "danish" a sweet breakfast roll.. in Denmark there is no such thing, the closest you can come it to a Vienna roll. which is, of course unheard of in Vienna!
and while i have spent very little time in Vienna, i never once saw the little sausages that are common sold in tins as Vienna sausages. do they exist in Vienna? and how about other foods or items, would i find a cabinet like mine in Wales? Its sold in US as "Welsh dresser".
Well, Helen, down here we say a "New York minute".
Now, as to a Welsh dresser--mav told me that he dresses with a nude vicar. Oh, no, wait--he said renewed vigor. Must be all that rain.
The only person who ought properly dress with a nude vicar is the nude vicar's spouse. So sayeth this vicar.
>Nyer's eat "danish" a sweet breakfast roll..
I know, teacher, I know!
There is a Jewish delicacy called a knish, which is dough stuffed with various substances and baked or fried. Around the turn of the century (well, not this past one) an Italian deli owner in New York began making rolls with sweet dough and stuffing them with a sweetened soft cheese. He didn't have a name for it, but soon he had all these Jews coming in asking for "da knish" and that's how the name came about.
well only if you allow for cheese danish-- and not poppy seed or prune..
and what about what "a NY steak" commonly known in NY as a London Broil-- and what do londoners call that cut of meat? (and what cut is it? i dunno. Daddy was a butcher, and I never learned how to by meat i just placed orders)
and knish, which is dough stuffed with various substances they are basicly Potato (with some variations, like potato and onion) and kasha. One kasha knish and you don't need (and can't!) eat again for a week. a little kasha goes a long way
*Kasha is buckwheat groats. **groat--hulled grain broken into fragments larger than grits.
Okay Jackie how big is a grit? groats (uncooked) about 1/4 a grain of large grained rice. (such as a carolina rice), about 1/3 the size of a medium (Italian) grained rice and not as fat around as a short grained sticky Chinese rice grain! so about 1/3 the size of the Chinese rice too.
Good for breakfast, or mixed with Pasta, or ground into flour, to make buckwheat pancakes--either with straight buchwheat flour, or mixed with white flour.
>would I find a cabinet like mine in Wales? Its sold in US as "Welsh dresser"
That would be Mrs Catherine Zeta Jones Douglas.
I do have a Welsh dresser and I once lived in Wales. Unusually this may be a rare "correct" example.
http://www.decibel.co.uk/ceramicsjournal/journal001/welsh/welsh3.htmOn the other hand. I posted a little while ago that I had never seen an "English muffin" until I went to New York. I am also suspicious of "Belgian waffles" - we just call them waffles and I can't remember seeing them as any kind of speciality in Belgium (although I'm willing to be corrected). The Netherlands specialise in pancakes, so I suppose Belgium must make waffles.
We have several brands labelled as "American" when the closest the product (eg rather indifferent ice cream,
not Hagen Das or Ben & Jerries) has been to America is that the person who made it has a distant relative there.
>commonly known in NY as a London Broil
I've never heard of it, I'll seek one out. I'm not completely sure what "broil" means.
My sister's ex-mother-in-law (boy, that's a mouthful) was from Belgium. She and all her family before her, made a waffles but they eat them as snacks, not breakfast food.
In reply to:
I'm not completely sure what "broil" means
I think UK and NZ English are at one on this - "broil" = "grill" 
The Belgian Pavilion at the 1964-1965 World Fair in New York featured Belgian waffles as a national dish. I coveted the ones served with fresh strawberries and whipped cream. So I guess the Belgians thought of them as theirs. That any help? I particularly loved the Irish Pavilion for the coffee on cool days
and the Indian Pavilion for the great food -- my first intro to real curry! And I made a good friend there.
Returned to Fair in '65 and it was even better. Aloha, wow
Look what's in the opening paragraph in Jo's link
(I added the bold):
...the time when Welsh culture was loosing its distinctive characteristics...
Hey Max,
Canadian English equates "grill" with "fry" on as the Americans sometimes call it, the griddle or "grill" is used to describe a "Charcoal Broiler" or BBQ. "Broil" usually is used to descibe cooking either over an open flame or under it.
>She and all her family before her, made a waffles but they eat them as snacks, not breakfast food.
I'll concede on waffles being Belgian then.
Myself, I'll stick with Belgian chocolate - heavenly!
I wonder where the idea of pancakes and waffles for breakfast originated? The Dutch seem to like pancakes and Eastern Europeans are fond of blini.
I posted a while ago that I had heard that breakfast was important when people were travelling on the wagon train to the West. The fires were still going from the night before, so it was the best time to cook a hot meal, pancakes were quick, easy and filling.
One of my American friends was amused when she met some elderly American ladies in a tour group in Paris. One of them turned to her and said "Do you know, they gave us bread for breakfast!"
I think UK and NZ English are at one on this - "broil" = "grill"
Oh no they're not, me old son!
I've never heard other UK people use the word "broil" - and if they did, they would probably consider it closer to "boil" than "grill", just because of the sound.
I think the only place you would hear it here would be in an American hamburger place. They talk about char-broiled burgers and I'm sure most people here haven't a clue what they mean. I'd always guessed that it was some kind of charcoal grill, which sounds like it is true.
'broiled' is supposed to be healthier than 'fried' (both are done on one type of 'grill' or another in a restaurant).
broiling involves letting the grease drip through a grated grill or pan -- less grease with your meat; on a flat grill, you fry the meat in the grease. BBQing is a type of broiling/grilling.
>on a flat grill, you fry the meat in the grease
The problem is that we would never fry on a grill. We fry in a frying pan. We grill under a grill (a grill has a flame or electric element above the grill pan which slides underneath). The only place we might grill with the flame underneath is a on a barbecue but we'd probably call that barbecuing, not grilling.
what do you call an "industrial grade" frying grill -- restaurants don't all fry in pans, do they?
I don't know. I'll find out.
The Canadian recipe books I have refer to broil as putting a piece of meat on the top rack in the oven and turning on the top element only. With red/white meats, this is often done in a two-tier dish to let the fat drip off. With fish (which is usually leaner) it is done in a regular dish.
In reply to:
I think UK and NZ English are at one on this - "broil" = "grill"
Oh no they're not, me old son!
I've never heard other UK people use the word "broil" - and if they did, they would probably consider it closer to "boil" than "grill", just because of the sound.
Please pardon the delay in replying, I had to hunt around for a shop selling sackcloth and ashes. My post was ineptly worded. Your reply proves the point I intended to make - that NZ and UK English treat "broil" the same way. When I first saw the word, I had no idea what it meant, and assumed it was some sort of boiling. Then I came across it in contexts which suggested to me that it was more like grilling. As I was of the impression that "grill" is widely used in UK English, as it is here, I posted that "broil = grill." I hope this incident has shown why one should never ask me to write anything in which unambiguous clarity of meaning is critical.
no, tsuwm, my weekly treat is breakfast out, and my eggs are cooked on a flat grill. (as are the bacon rashers, and even muffins, (corn muffins, not english) are toasted on the grill. small coffee shops all have flat grills, and friers (for french fries) almost nothing is cooked in a pan. eggs, pancakes, hash browns, (potatoes), bacon, the whole lot is cooked on the grill.
under the grill is a slide out tray (a salamander) , it is used to melt cheese onto hamburger buns, and such, but its not a hot as the grill. In someplaces it is used to warm the plates!
broiling requires an open flame. either above or below. (wendy's "flame broiled" is redundant)
obviously, you're all too posh! never worked as waitressess or waiters in greasy spoons the whole lot of you.
and yes jo, pancake (sometime, but becoming archaic, Jonnycakes--a contraction of journey cakes) are breakfast food. jonny (or jonhie) cakes are made with corn meal (maize) and there are buttermilk pancakes, which are as scrumptious, but a different texture than, buttermilk biscuits. in the north,they are served with maple syrup.. center states fake maple syrup, in the south, corn syrup or molasses top them. dark corn syrup is very similar to treacle. many places add fruits or nuts to pancakes-- and good ones are still good when cold, and can be eaten out of hand, plain for a mid day snack. bad ones end up something like hard tack!
and i guess its true, there is no such thing as a London broil to be had in London! (my kids are veggan, so family holidays never included steak houses, or even pubs. No one wanted steak and kidney pie, or even micky d's!)
when i went to london children in tow, we ate curry several nights in row--so as not to (have a row)
wendy's "flame broiled" is redundantHa! The Rosetta Stone! Here in NZ, Wendy's® uses the slogan "flame
grilled. As Clouseau might have said: "Case closèd!"
sackcloth and ashesNothing to forgive, Max
I was surprised, and a little disturbed, to think that Kiwis could veer from the Mother Tongue in such a fundamental fashion, given that I've been good friends (drunk lots) with many Kiwis and considered my knowledge of Kiwenglish passable. Hence a slight (unnecessary) tone of outrage..
Whilst looking up the name for those flat oblong things (griddles) that you can use to fry large quantities and make American pancakes, I found a fundamental difference between UK and US cookers.
The kind of cooker/(stove?) that is usually found in a British home has a separate grill, usually above the oven with the food cooked under the heat in a "grill pan" (a two tier affair with a rack resting above an oblong metal tray, as described). I read that US cookers usually have an oven which doubles as a grill if only the top element is used.
Just to complicate matters, in more modern/more expensive cookers the grill is slightly larger and can be used as a second oven. Some cheaper models have a combined single oven/grill AGAs and some range cookers do not have grills. See cookers at
http://www.comet.co.uk for more pictures of
fairly ordinary cookers than you may ever want to see. I couldn’t find an equivalent American site.
As an aside I am always surprised that French holiday homes rarely have an oven, only a hob. Ovens are obviously not considered to be important.
>when i went to london children in tow, we ate curry several nights in row
Very sensible too. Did you know that the top British dish is now Chicken Tikka Masala (coming to you direct from ... don't get started Shanks, I know that no such dish exists in India!)
don't get started Shanks, I know that no such dish exists in India!I've long since got used to the notion that our national dish (in the UK) is best described, like the movies, as having been 'inspired by' Indian cooking!
I don't know. I'll find out.
I think I'm going to go with griddle. I've never seen one of the things called broilers, here but they may well exist.
http://store.yahoo.com/bowery/gridbroil.html
a site with a picture of the most common type cooker in small restaurants:
http://www.bigtray.com/catalog.asp!catid.10810.html a grill
unfortunately, the pictures of salamanders are not available. Hobart is one of the leading companies for industrial food equipment-- at least in NY there might be others in other part of the country.
a real restaurant, as opposed to a coffee shop/greasy spoon, might have something like this:
http://www.chefsupplies.com/chef/item.cfm?Section=Equipment&SubSection=Cooking&Category=Ranges&ID=790080In US, we tend to have stoves, and or ranges, not cookers (and no one, but the very rich have anything like an AGA! )
http://geappliances.com/shop/prdct/ckng_gas/It has become trendy to have Restaurant type stoves, (which most small coffee shops would not have) with 6 to 8 "Burners" and in some case the burners can be covered with a griddle, or a broiler. Like above, but with out the 2" side grill. They also have salamanders, a drawer under the burners for "cooler broiling" good for toasting the top of a meringue on a pie, or creme bruile. (since the heating source is above the food, and heat tends to rise, it is not as hot.)
Most US stove have a broiler area-- in electric stove it is the top oven heating element, in gas stoves its a drawer unit under the main oven. I have a "cook top" and separate wall oven with a "broiler drawer" below. (see ge site)
gas or electric would depend on the area. NY is privileged to have the highest KWH rates for electric power in the country. It is rare to find electric stoves in the area.. Where gas is not piped in, householders use
bottled propane gas. In other part of the country, electric stove/ranges are the norm.
even BBQ-- you do that on a grill (often out of doors) but BBQ is it not just grilled food. a steak cooked on my grill is not BBQ'ed, its just grilled. BBQ food is also grilled, but , oh forget it.... BBQ mean something different in every state! i think Aussies use BBQ to do what we would call "grilling"
one characteristic of BBQ is sauce-- sometimes as marinade, sometimes as poaching liquid, sometimes added while cooking. the sauce can be sweet, or tomato-y, or sour or smoky, but its always a bit spicy. every region has a different type sauce, and a different time to add the sauce, and different food that is most often BBQ'ed.. pork, beef, chicken, seafood, lamb, turkey.. all are BBQ'ed
cooking (home cooking) doesn't seem like a specialize activity, but it seems there are different terms used in all parts of the world.
appliances:
Range/stove/cooker, hot tray, microwave, toaster oven, rotisserie, indoor electric grills, convection ovens...
pots:
sauce pans, saute pans, fry pans, pots, woks, bain maries, griddles, steamers, rice cookers, pressure cookers, electric kettles (just now becoming popular in US) gem pans (that one is almost archaic!) but M-W 10th knows what a gem is!
other--
so use a colander or sieve? when you use a spatula is it plastic or metal; if metal, shaped like a wooden tongue depressor or shaped like a shovel?
a recent house guest at my house couldn't figure out how to use my can opener-- and i have a simple hand cranked model...(standard issue in US)
Thanks Helena and Tsuwm, I'm much happier now!
I think that the restaurant stuff is fairly similar, Hobart is a common brand name - I think especially for their steam oven. Although I used to do the accounts for a small cafe when I worked in an Arts Centre, we didn't need any new equipment while I was there, so I never had reason to look through the suppliers catalogues.
I was interested to see the word range used for a cooker. We would only call something like an AGA (yes, they cost £3,000 new plus the re-inforced floor, so not for everyone, except in Joanna Trollope books) a range, although they now make double width electric and gas cookers and call the ranges (I suspect because it sounds more up-market). My grandmother called a cooker a stove, so it always makes me think of something from the 1950s. There is a cooker company called Stoves which is doing quite well at the moment, making ranges. Apart from that, the ranges and stoves shown don't look too dissimilar.
>electric kettles (just now becoming popular in US)
This came as rather a shock to me as a young person, setting foot in a New York apartment for the first time. Arguably the most civilised place on the planet, yet how does one boil water? In a pan on the stove, very strange, I thought. How on earth does one make a cup of tea? Fortunately the lack of electric kettles soon dimmed in my memory. The thing I really remember .... was my bare foot encounter with the 4 inch roaches, en-route to the bathroom in the middle of the night. I loved the way they scuttled away as I turned on the light. "Ah - civilisation", I murmured to my crunchy but attentive audience as I calculated the cost bringing forward my return ticket to London by three months and twenty seven days.
In retrospect it was a good thing that I didn't, I may have met tsuwm battling his way through the diesel fumes in London!
Next instalment, the spiders of Queensland
In Québec we use only the word stove for what you call range/cooker.
The word cooker is only used in the description of a pot with an air-tight cover that quick-cooks food. It is called a pressure-cooker.
What is a HOB you speak of?
>What is a HOB you speak of?
Amazing isn't it. I think that we are entering the world of bread rolls and English as a local language. If someone talks about macroeconomic indicators, transcendental meditation or transubstantiation everyone knows what we’re talking about. The minute we get down to the gas or electric hotplate on the top of a stove, all our communication skills fail us!
The hob is the bit on top of the stove (or maybe recessed into the work-surface) that provides the heat for cooking.
The point about electric kettles is that when one is young, one assumes that everywhere is a bit the same. Travelling provides insight into life at home. It had never occurred to me that an electric kettle was a very British item, probably to do the fact that we have traditionally drunk more tea than coffee.
On the other hand … American fridges … wow!
Don't laugh. French Canadians call an electric kettle a duck (un canard). I assume it is because of the bill-like pouring spout.
What did you say in the yellow print?
My old eyes just turn it into a blur and it looks like a yellow line! Anyone else have trouble with yellow print? wow
Sorry - old joke - just highlight it and you'll see, it's a bit like having invisible ink but I'll move on, I think.
belMarduk wrote: Don't laugh. French Canadians call an electric kettle a duck (un canard). I assume it is because of the bill-like pouring spout.
Here in NZ, we refer to cookers, stoves, ranges interchangeably. Hobs usually referred to the part of an open fireplace where you could put the kettle to boil. On electric ranges, we call the hot plate an "element", although old geezers may still use "hob". With gas cookers, I usually hear "putting something on the gas". But then we don't refer to petrol as gas (much) except when using American slang such as "step on the gas". It's no wonder English is such a hard language for foreigners to speak colloquially!
Never mind the colloquial ... just plain old pronunciation can do you in. "Did you eat" can become "jeweet" or even worse plain "jeet?".
In Hawaii you are likely to be asked "Howzit?"
In Northern New England there's an "insider" greeting :
"Do you think they'll have it?" The imagination displayed by the answer is critical! My favorite is : "Don't know but they just went down the road with the rope." Leaves room for even more speculation. wow.
>old geezers may still use "hob"
I'm in good company then!
(Actually I think hob came back into use when they needed to find a word for the bit built into the work surface that contained the gas burners and electric elements, when they separated the cooker(stove) out and built the oven and grill(broiler) into the wall units, does that make sense to anyone except me - I doubt it)
Before we move off the subject (possibly for a very long time) - one last question.
Traditionally we had boiling and roasting chickens. I haven't seen a boiling chicken for years, I expect they used to be old stringy things but they don't bother selling them any more (except to chicken soup manufacturers).
I see references to "broiler chickens" on US web sites - judging from what has gone before these must be made to be grilled. So what do you call roasting chickens?
>less grease with your meat
I forgot to say this sounds really unpleasant to me. I might grease a metal hinge but I certainly wouldn't want it near my food!
(We would let the fat drip through)
>I forgot to say this sounds really unpleasant to me. I might grease a metal hinge but I certainly wouldn't want it near my food! (We would let the fat drip through)
obviously, with one of those flat grills shown in the above links, there's no place for fat to drip. hamburgers and the like do fry in their own grease; excess grease is scraped with a spatula into a channel in front or back of the grill (but usually after the meat is done grilling).
joe (I was not a fry cook, but I worked the other side of a large plate glass window from one] friday
>I might grease a metal hinge
No you've missed the point. I know that what you are saying is fine. We obviously use the word grease in different ways. I wouldn't associate the word grease with food, although we might talk about cleaning a greasy plate caused by the fat from the food. When I hear the word grease the first thing that would spring to mind would be removing thick black axle grease from an engine part, the next thing would be something like Vaseline or the grease that used to be used to slick back hair (as in the film). Hence my reaction to the idea of a hamburger frying in grease (even though I saw you use the Phrase "its own").
I'm coming to the conclusion that New Zealand English (lovingly known as "Zild") isn't English-based or Americanised, it's been damned well balkanised!
We use "grease" for all of the meanings mentioned above. Context sorts out the differences. After all, you may cook a burger patty in its own grease, but you sure as shootin' won't cook it in axle grease. Well you might, but I wouldn't. Quordlepleen may disagree ...
"Fat" and "grease" are interchangeable, but only up to a point. There are implications in both words which mean that in some cases you'd use "fat" or "grease" and at other times only "fat" or "grease".
>Fat" and "grease" are interchangeable, but only up to a point.
So it would be OK to go on a low grease diet then?
So it would be OK to go on a low grease diet then?
Well, not unless you want to starve. Another, slang, use of "grease" in Zild (and probably other dialects of English) is to refer to fish and chips, although it's usually "greasies". The derviation is obvious!
no... no... no... grease is what you get when you grill fat!
, but you sure as shootin' won't cook it in axle grease. Well you might, but I wouldn't. Quordlepleen may disagree ...No dischord here! The last greasies I had (Thursday) may well have been cooked in axle grease - queasies would be nearer the mark.
Traditionally we had boiling and roasting chickens. I haven't seen a boiling chicken for years, I expect they used to be old stringy things but they don't bother selling them any more (except to chicken soup manufacturers).
yes, it hard to find an old soup chicken any more this side of the pond too. broilers are small chickens, that are broiled (rather than roast) they have to be somewhat small to cook through before the outsides get burnt. a half chicken is a serving for a broiler, (sometimes a quarter). Julia Child in one of her cook books details sizes of fowl, from cornish game hens (not from cornwall, i suspect) to soup hens. I think she used the USDA (dept of agraculture) but i checked there site and couldn't find the info. broilers are usually (at least in NY) about 1 kilo, to less than 1.5 kilos (2.25 to 3.25 lbs) roasters are 2 or more kilos.
There are still boiling chickens here. They are the hens that are all layed out (don't correct me on layed…that’s how we say it and now now, no lewd comments from the gents!!) They are usually huge and quite inexpensive. They are also the only chickens that have a target-use printed on packaging. I expect we can *&!^ well do what we want with the other ones
tsuwm…but what about when you grill bacon. Is the stuff left over grease or fat? What about when it solidifies?
>but what about when you grill bacon. Is the stuff left over grease or fat? What about when it solidifies?
okay, by definition - grease is rendered (melted down) animal fat; when grease solidifies, voila, fat!
okay, by definition - grease is rendered (melted down) animal fat; when grease solidifies, voila, fat!Ah hah! We'd call (food) grease "oil", then.
Surely you don't fry things in "cooking grease"??
(or "olive grease", "corn grease", "groundnut/peanut grease"...)
okay, by definition - grease is rendered (melted down) animal fat; when grease solidifies, voila, fat!
Ah hah! We'd call (food) grease "oil", then.
Surely you don't fry things in "cooking grease"??
(or "olive grease", "corn grease", "groundnut/peanut grease"...)
No of course not, once its solid its fat (and yes you can by chicken fat in a little package in NY grocery stores.)
but olive and peanut never solidify-- they are oil. Olive oil, corn oil, and you would grease the pan with butter or lard before cooking (say a cake). and other instructions might say "drain of all the grease/pan dripping except 2 tablespoons full, add flour... for making a roux.
Vegetable oils advertize that food cooked in their oil doesn't taste greasy.
in a pinch, i have used "crisco" a brand of solid vegetable shortening (solid oil!) as a grease. the main bearing failed on my concrete mixer in the middle of job, and a improvised with a large brass washer and some crisco!
i did mention i was--past tense--once married?.... Not any more.
you would grease the pan with butter or lard before cooking
Likewise, Helen, but that's a verb.
Vegetable oils advertize that food cooked in their oil doesn't taste greasy.
Likewise, but that's an adjective.
i have used "crisco" a brand of solid vegetable shortening (solid oil!)
Yes, we have solidified oils, but we would probably call them "lard" (or just "fat").
I suppose we fail to distinguish between oils that can solidify ("grease" to you) and oils that don't (and therefore remain "oil" to you).
Weird, isn't it? All these things we take for granted, and that are just so everyday we can't imagine any different kind of perception/language.
P.S. We'd talk about draining of all the fat or oil except x spoonfuls, though we do talk about "dripping". You used to be able to buy beef dripping, in fact, and it served as a quick snack spread on a slice of bread.
>>you would grease the pan with butter or lard before cooking
>Likewise, Helen, but that's a verb.
well, what noun do you suppose that verb was verbed from??
>>you would grease the pan with butter or lard before cooking
>Likewise, Helen, but that's a verb.
well, what noun do you suppose that verb was verbed from??
'Tis true, tsuwm. We'd grease axles as well as pans. But grease as a noun would only apply to mechanisms for us.
Beef dripping? my mother used to wax about wonderful breakfasts of "fried bread" --bread fried in bacon drippings. but i don't think most people in US would use drippings for bacon grease-- drippings are what you get from a roast (leg of lamb, beef, turkey).
( i grew up hearing drippings used for both bacon and roasts, but I don't think most in US would use the same word for both. Drippings are desireable, bacon fat is grease. But i could be wrong. I grew up hearing the words used interchangably but I don't think they are.)
and in ny, there is a ethic treat, the crispy bits of skin and stuff that get strained out from schmalz-- kosher rendered chicken fat. the favorite or best behaved child would get all the crunchy stuff, bits of derma and meat. Now every one is health conscious, and no one admits to eating such foods.
Schmaltz was used as an alternative to butter for meat meal, since food laws prohibitted mixing dairy food with meat.
and yes greasy is an adjective, but the point is, greasy is a word used with food-- not just axels--come to think of it, i get my car "lubed" not greased.
I sent this thread to the Vegetarianism Promotion Board, who have/has expressed their/its sincere thanks. Please watch out for the forthcoming ad campaign.
In reply to:
The kind of cooker/(stove?) that is usually found in a British home has a separate grill, usually above the oven with the food cooked under the heat in a "grill pan" (a two tier affair with a rack resting above an oblong metal tray, as described). I read that US cookers usually have an oven which doubles as a grill if only the top element is used.
How on earth do Americans make cheese on toast (aka Welsh rabbit/rarebit)? Surely they don't make it in the oven. it would make such a simple snack far too much trouble.
Bingley
My Grandmother said "drippings" as mentioned here although she was third generation in USA. My Mother said "drippings" only when she meant the residue that would be used for another cooking procedure. I say "drippings" for the bits left in the pan when I'm making gravy for turkey. So perhaps it's a generational difference as well as Mother County - Colonies thing?
As to rarebit I make mine in a double boiler to prevent scorching.
When a child, I heard rabbit for rarebit! I was appalled anyone would eat a lovely soft cuddly rabbit. I wondered if perhaps Welsh rabbits were not as darling as American rabbits and easier to justify killing. The thoughts that run through a child's mind often remind me of a routine by Robin Williams.
Now, as to quail on toast... wow
When a child, I heard rabbit for rarebit!Pretty good, since that's the way it's pronounced. Contaxt is everything, eh?
that's the way it's pronounced
Interesting, shanks - not in my childhood. It was given a value somewhere between rabbit and rare-bit.
What? and risk nightmares?
Actually two ways:
Most people butter one side of two slices of bread. They assemble it as sandwich, with the buttered side out,cheese in the middle and cook in fry/frying/saute pan (or on a flat griddle, or in a sandwich maker) and "toast" flipping it over to cook both sides. It is called amazingly enough--grilled cheese (sandwich) It can be fancied up with bacon, or tomatoes. It is most commonly made with the "plastic" processed American cheese.
For an open face (one slice of bread) sandwich, we'd use a toaster oven. but then it would be a melt-- as in a Tuna melt-- bread with tuna salad, (tuna, chopped veggies and mayo) a slice of tomato, and cheese on top.
There are other melts, but I think tuna is the most common.
A toaster oven would toast the underside of the sandwich (bread) and at the same time melt the cheese.
A toaster oven is about the size of bread box, and it's close to being the #1 appliance in states. i'll look for a site with an picture since Jo didn't have a clue what a toaster oven was. Either it's very american or goes by an other name elsewhere. (and welsh rabbit -- what do they call melted cheese sandwiches in Wales?)
An american cheese sandwiches are really goo-ey cheese encased in two slice of bread. They are not really melted cheese (a la fondue) poured over toast (points) which is how welsh rabbit is portrayed in american cookbooks.
But grease as a noun would only apply to mechanisms for us
Just backtracking here a bit, fisk - because re-reading your post has got me (half-)remembering the Shakespeare line about "Greasy Joan doth keel the pot..". Can't get much more this second, apart from Marion's nose being red and raw - but I realised this stuck way back in childhood for me as an image of grease = yuk for food. Of such fragments whole language edifices are built...?
I believe the "stuff strained out" of schmalz is called gribeness (all short vowels), which, like schmalz, is a Yiddish word, which opens up a whole new world to explore. There are lots of Yiddish words and expressions used in US English by Goyim as well as Jews.
Chickens in the USA are quite different from what they were not very long ago. In fact, the universal use of the word chicken and no other for that genus of poultry is new; you used to hear "hen" a good bit, but no more. In the olden days (up to maybe 25 years ago) you could still buy, cheap, a "stewing hen", an old one which had outlived its usefulness as a layer and which would be tough and scrawny, therefore sold to be stewed. They have totally disappeared now. When you go to the market now, you have a choice of a roaster, which is usually 4 to 7 lbs. in weight; and a broiler, which is a younger bird and smaller, maybe 2 to 4 lbs. Of course, they keep getting bigger and bigger. Back in the 70's, when we had 3 sons to feed and wanted a 6 lb. fowl, we had to buy a capon.
I believe the "stuff strained out" of schmalz is called gribeness i think your right-- it was a food i knew of, but never had... (it was too much of "family treat")
my Jewish friend where appalled at my eating habits– so much trayf!
in our house, the best dinners were roast of beef, and "please can I have some of the
blood" the juices that drained from the rare cooked meat were the best treat!
needless to say such an request would not have played well in the jewish deli– the only delis that sometimes had a fresh hot, roast of beed to slice for a sandwich. one had to go to the German deli for rare roast beef as a "cold cut" but the didn't deli's didn't serve the blood, cold meat didn't offer any.(still rare meat is juicier than well done meat) The Italian deli's cooked the beef well done too, and spiced it.-- not how i wanted it!
Jewish friends could understand that I had no injunction against pork– but
blood! 
I was at a bar (a good Irish bar) for a party, and as the waiter sliced the roast, I looked about and asked "do you have a spoon, can you server me some of the blood?" The waiter looked up, saw my blue eyes, rosy cheeks and pug nose, and said "ah an irish lass!" ( he also kindly found a spoon.. it wasn't that long ago, and "Lass" is a real stretch!)
I learned a good deal of culture and geography from local store keepers. Luckily, my neighborhood had a wonderful ethnic mix– bakeries as well as deli's came in ethnic varieties, only more– Greek and French as well as Italian and Jewish.
the french made the best butter pastries, the italian's had wonderful things with nuts and cremes made with cheese, but you went to the jewish bakery for bread.. Prejudice in our house was directed to styles of cooking–"buy some bread– but don't go to the italian bakery– their bread is no good!"
all the shops decorated the wall of their shops with maps, and pictures of their homelands. Or had special treats for saints days I had never heard of or holidays I didn't know of– Purim is still "hamintashes" to me–
It was a wonderful education– not only is all my taste in my mouth– but half my education came that way!
My lifelong love affair with good food has a precise beginning. My family background is Pennsylvania Dutch (i.e., German) on both sides. I grew up in Harrisburg PA during the 1940's and early 50's. Our diet was the typical Germanic meat and potatoes one with occasional forays into fancy items like canned asparagus (ugh). Harrisburg was an unbelievably provincial place then; everybody we knew was just like us, and we knew no Catholics, Jews, coloreds, or any other ethnicities. My parents, however, were pretty open-minded; they just didn't get any opportunities to try meeting new people, my mother having plenty to do with a slew of children. My father, since he worked for the railroad, did meet a lot of different people.
One evening, I guess around 1945, he came home and announced that we were having company for dinner; that they were Italian, and that they were going to bring food and cook it for us. Dolores and Sam, God bless them, arrived with the makings of a traditional antipasto, which was promptly laid out in intricate detail on a large platter, and knocked our socks off, since we had never imagined that food could be a delight to the eye as well as to the palate. But the tour de force was spaghetti and meatballs. When I tasted it, I thought I had died and gone to heaven. There had never been anything so delicious. And different -- we had never before eaten anything made from cooked tomatoes, we only ate tomatoes raw. Spaghetti and meatballs is now considered hopelessly old-fashioned and fake Italian, but I don't care -- 50 years later it's still my #1 favorite meal. From then, I've been trying out every cuisine and ethnic food imaginable and have had a wonderful time doing it, even if I have to sacrifice to get the lard off every so often. At the same time, I still have a fondness for Pa.Dutch foods as well, although they are getting harder all the time to get and making them yourself is a pain.
I also recall vividly the evening in 1956, after we had moved to Bucks County PA, my father taking us all for a ride to the Italian section of Trenton NJ to try out a new food which we had never heard of but which was then all the rage, called a "tomato pie". We couldn't imagine a pie made with tomatoes, but when we tried it, we liked it very much. It later became known as a "pizza."
somewhere between rabbit and rare-bit
The story as I got it was that it was called Welsh rabbit because the Welsh were too poor to afford real rabbit. This was a joke since the standard method of getting (not cooking) rabbit would be to poach it. The rarebit variation would be from a misunderstanding of the joke. Since there is no rabbit in the dish it couldn't be Welsh rabbit and must have been rarebit misheard. In my youth it was a cheese/egg mixture scrambled and served over toast. The classic recipe uses beer but we were a largely non-drinking household.
It later became known as a "pizza."I remember my first experience of Trenton NJ pizza like it was yesterday. I had been working since 4am, and it was now 3pm, so at the counter we chose our selection of topping, and from a small illustration figured we were hungry enough to manage the 'large' size, 1 each. They served this absolutely delicious thing the size of a cartwheel!
Ahh, Mav, we are dating ourselves. I remember large pizzas too. When large meant more that a 1 and 1/2 foot diameter. They don't make them like that anymore.
of troy, your version of welsh rabbit sounds much more complicated than what we used to have. Toast one side of the bread in the grill pan. Turn the bread over and put on strips of cheddar, and then put it back under the grill and wait for the cheese to melt.
Bingley
dating oursleves
True, bel. With the rampant inflation that marketing has foisted upon us, to describe the 'large' portion as anything less than titanic would now be understatement!
But Mr B, methinks you confuse Welsh Rarebit with simple Toasted Cheese, the which were not the same.
Here's my recipe for Welsh Rarebit
Toast some bread on one side in a toaster-oven or under broiler.
Assemble :
1 tablespoon butter
1/2 pound mild soft cheese cut in small pieces
1/4 teaspoon salt
1/4 teaspoon mustard
1/3 to 1/2 cup ale or lager beer
one egg -- slightly beaten
Put butter in a chafing dish (or double boiler) When butter is melted add cheese and seasoning. As cheese melts add ale/lager very slowly then the lightly beaten egg.
Pour melted rarebit on the UNtoasted side of the bread and serve. A lovely late night snack!
Rarebit may also be made without the beer but you need other ingredients. If you want that recipe then let me know.
wow
No! NY and northern NJ pizza is still 15 to 18 inches in diameter. Pizza hut and other chains don't have them that way, but NY pizzeria do.. I don't know about Trenton, but i expect they still have this style. you can even get them that way in southern NJ, just out side of Philly.
One pizza is cut into 6 or 8 slices, and sold by the slice Two slices is a lunch special--$3. near where i work (right next to NY city call and civic center)
I still remember my first slice too, in the Arther Avenue section of the bronx, 15 cents bought a slice and a 8 oz fountain soda. It was heaven! the best part, was it was a meat free food! it very quickly became our favorite food on "fast days"--when we couldn't eat meat.
In reply to:
portion inflation
You are so right about inflation of at least the descriptions of portions etc. This brings to mind the delicious description jumbo shrimp, which is now so common that nobody recognizes it as an oxymoron any more.
jumbo shrimp, which is now so common that nobody recognizes it as an oxymoron...BSE gets everywhere, doesn't it!
In reply to:
But Mr B, methinks you confuse Welsh Rarebit with simple Toasted Cheese, the which were not the same.
They were in our house. I obviously had a deprived childhood. Though if it has to involve beer to be Welsh Rarebit, perhaps not.
Bingley
Hi Bingley,
Welsh Rarebit may be made without beer and it is equally delish. If you want that recipe, send me a private and I will send recipe, also private, to avoid boring others.
RE BIG PIZZA : I have just discovered a local spot where New York Pizza, HUGE with thin crust, is being made and sold. And joy of joys for single folk they also sell pizza-by-the-slice. Oh frabjus joy!
wow
I've stayed out of this one - my dear old late mum used to make Welsh rarebit with cheese and something else, definitely not beer, and it doesn't seem to be the same thing at all. It was made separately to the toast and was spooned on to the toast. I guess she had the recipe from my grandmother, who was English but from the Welsh marches ...
>jumbo shrimp, which is now so common that nobody recognizes it as an oxymoron any more.
I'm gonna stick my neck out here. Conventional wisdom is that jumbo shrimp is an oxymoron, but I'm not convinced CW is correct in this case. Shrimp's an animal, and the word comes from (apparently) an OE word for to shrink up. So there's definitely a relationship to smallness, but I maintain that so long as there are different sizes of the animal you have to be able to make the distinction.
Thanks wow, but cheese is something of a luxury item here, so I rarely buy it.
Bingley
cheese is something of a luxury item here...... poor soul - so you are forced to live on jumbo shrimp, then, Mr B?
"Right" said TEd. "but I maintain that so long as there are different sizes of the animal you have to be able to make the distinction
For many of us, a size up from shrimp is a prawn. Certainly, they're scientifically the same thing.
are prawn a size up? or just an alternate word? mum alway called shrimp prawn, but "dublin prawn" are not jumbo shrimp!
local stores don't even use the words Jumbo shrimp anymore, but sell them by # per pound--(8 to pound, 6 to a pound) shrimp
shanks:
>For many of us, a size up from shrimp is a prawn. Certainly, they're scientifically the same thing.
Perhaps. Perhaps not.
My dictionary says a shrimp is a. any of various . . . crustaceans of the suborder Natantia, many species of which are edible. b. Any of various crustaceans similar to the shrimp.
My dictionary further defines prawn as an edible crustacean of the genus Palaemonetes and related genera, closely related to and resembling the shrimps.
But my point was that jumbo shrimp should not be categorized as an oxymoron because it does not mean big little. But I'm not prawn to carrying on this thread :). Shall we (s)cuttle it, or do we have to ask Jazz and Shona?
Hydromorons - certainly none of the shrimp I've eaten seemed very bright, but I guess it's hard to shine intellectually when you've been cooked.
The denizens of the Land of Oz (known in Zild as the West Island) used to have an expression, "raw prawn", to describe, I believe, idiots. Can anyone from Oz confirm or deny this? Or have you all just taken off to thrown another prawn on the barbie?
In reply to:
The denizens of the Land of Oz (known in Zild as the West Island) used to have an expression, "raw prawn", to describe, I believe, idiots. Can anyone from Oz confirm or deny this? Or have you all just taken off to thrown another prawn on the barbie?
Yep, CapK, it relates to idiots, or more precisely to being naive or gullible. I've only ever heard it used as part of the expression "Don't come the raw prawn with me", meaning don't try to fool me.
And as you have hinted at in your post, and in a recent Fosters ad, we throw prawns on the barbie, not shrimps. In truth, I've never done either, but I've enjoyed the results.
Shall we (s)cuttle it, or do we have to ask Jazz and Shona?
I don't associate with the shrimp. They stay near the surface and I prefer lounging around the ocean floor. I play the sax with the lantern fish.
but sell them by # per poundWhich reminds me to ask: What do you United Statesians call
#? Is that what you refer to as a pound sign? I ask, because it gets confusing when told to press the pound sign on the telephone keypad - I could spend hours looking and still never find
£. To my NZ ears, this is yet another case of some making a complete
hash of the language.
What do you United Statesians call #? Is that what you refer to as a pound sign? I ask, because it gets confusing when told to press the pound sign on the telephone keypad - I could spend hours looking and still never find £.
MaxQ,
Yes it is called a pound sign.... arrrggghhh ..... to me it is, because I have had music training, a sharp on the G scale.
I never thought how it would sound to those who have money called pounds! How provincial of me.
At least they call the dot in dot-com a dot and not a period! And a star is a star is a star is a star.
WOW
#In the US, it's usually referred to as the pound sign. We don't have to worry about the British pound. This matter has been discussed in some detail before:
http://wordsmith.org/board/showthreaded.pl?Cat=&Board=words&Number=99.
By the way, I assume the English measuring system was still in use at the same time as the current British currency system. You say it's confusing to call # the pound sign, but wouldn't it be much more confusing to have weight and money have the same name, especially when a pound doesn't weigh a pound?
Max Q asks: What do you United Statesians call #?
Yup when one of US'ns says press the pound key, that's the one we're talking about. We also call it number sign, hatch (if we're archeogeeks from the 70s), or little tic-tac-toe boards (if we're trying to be terminally cute).
The Wise old Woman said: a star is a star is a star is a star.
Us old archeogeeks sometimes call it splat.
In the US, it's usually referred to as the pound sign. We don't have to worry about the British pound.Thanks for the links, JazzO - I did a search, but did not go back far enough to find those references. Since Britain is still the largest single source of foreign investment in the US, I'm not sure whether the last sentence I quoted is entirely accurate.
As to the currency/weight dilemma - I was born 4 months after NZ switched from pounds to dollars, and we have always used
lb. as the abbreviation for pounds (avoirdupois or troy, it matters not) as opposed to £sd, so we never "tripped" over that one. I would be interested to hear from anyone who knows the history of "pound" and "hash" for # - I wouldn't know where to begin to LIU.
the worthless word for the day is: octothorp(e)
the symbol # on your telephone or keyboard (hash mark, pound sign, number sign) -- coined by the folks at Bell Labs?
http://features.learningkingdom.com/word/archive/1999/08/04.html
In reply to:
The Wise old Woman said: a star is a star is a star is a star.
Us old archeogeeks sometimes call it splat.
Interesting. To me, * has always been an asterisk (unless it's on top of a Christmas tree).
This guy seems to have the right idea:
http://www.taosnet.com/ebear/punc.html
Loved his quote: "I'm having my semicolon removed, and I'll have to punctuate into a bag."
Max et al,
Check out this link:
http://www.hut.fi/~jkorpela/latin1/master.htmlthen click on the # sign in the table.
(Found by searching in GoEureka/AltaVista for "pound sign" AND octothorpe AND origin, if you're interested).
>Interesting. To me, * has always been an asterisk (unless it's on top of a Christmas tree).
Many years ago there was a limerick about punctuation that ended something like this:
And what a little fool he was
his silly little *
I stumbled upon this whilst searching for something esle -- somehow it reminded me of several of our threads:
The World's Easiest Quiz
QUESTIONS (click here for answers:
http://puffin.creighton.edu/hist/quizans.htm)
1) How long did the Hundred Years War last?
2) Which country makes Panama hats?
3) From which animal do we get catgut?
4) In which month do Russians celebrate the October Revolution?
5) What is a camel's hair brush made of?
6) The Canary Islands in the Pacific are named after what animal?
7) What was King George VI's first name?
8) What color is a purple finch?
9) Where are Chinese gooseberries from?
10) How long did the Thirty Years War last?
In reply to:
6) The Canary Islands in the Pacific are named after what animal?
The Canary (dog) Islands are in the Pacific? Damn, that must have been a hell of a moving van!
>The Canary (dog) Islands are in the Pacific?
Dalmnation! Well spotted!
6) The Canary Islands in the Pacific are named after what animal?Hmmmmm. Could there be two?
The Canary Islands in my encyclopedia are a group of islands in the North Atlantic ocean aprox 70 miles (113km) off coast of North Africa.
And, if memory serves, the islands were named because of the huge number of dogs on the islands. Canis. Also Canis the dog star.
Wasn't thatsome kind of a question on Who Wants To Be A Millionaire?
wow
7) What was King George VI's first name?
Albert.
>7) What was King George VI's first name?
and CK abbreviatedly replied: Albert.
you know this and you don't know where Chinese gooseberries come from? go figure...
you know this and you don't know where Chinese gooseberries come from? go figure...Everything I have been taught, and the fruits of a quick Google search, suggest that this question may be the odd one out - that
actinidia chinensis did originate in China -
http://www.crfg.org/pubs/ff/kiwifruit.html being but one of many to say the same thing.
Max said: Everything I have been taught, and the fruits of a quick Google search, suggest that this question may be the odd one out - that actinidia chinensis did originate in China -
Indeed they did. I once sat through a long and extremely boring investment seminar calculated to make me reach into my back pocket and invest heavily in a kiwifruit orchard near Te Puke.
The one piece of information I did come away with (and with the contents of my wallet intact, of course), was that, as Max says, we stole Chinese gooseberries from the Chinese. Is there no end to the perfidy of New Zealanders onto a good thing? (rhetorical question, Oztralians need not reply).
a kiwifruit orchard near Te Puke...Should think it was more the contents of your stomach that woud be concerned?
Mav murmured: Should think it was more the contents of your stomach that woud be concerned?
Sorry Mav, close, but no cigar. The macronless Maori word for stomach is puku, not puke.
And speaking of which, has anyone heard from MaxQ lately? Maybe he's gone on a retreat with Father Steve.
And speaking of which, has anyone heard from MaxQ lately? Maybe he's gone on a retreat with Father Steve.
Max doesn't post for 24 hours and you're missing him? There's been no word from Shona for a week now. I guess logins will be a bit more sporadic for many over the Christmas/New Year period. I've got three weeks away from my internet connection (a.k.a. my place of employment) before the end of Jan. I'm investigating WRT (word replacement therapy).
There's been no word from Shona for a week now.
He's on a post fast, making up for the marathon of posting he ran the first couple weeks of his membership.
He's on a post fast...
Something like Express Post, is it?
Fine time he chooses, just two posts short of addict status. Doesn't he know he already has a habit?
Can a fish go cold turkey?
In reply to:
Sorry Mav, The macronless Maori word for stomach is puku, not puke.
And speaking of which, has anyone heard from MaxQ lately? Maybe he's gone on a retreat with Father Steve.
There is, however, a Cook Island Maori food called puke, the mere thought of which makes me puke!
My absence is due to a death in my immediate family - my CPU's fan died, and so my poor PC is in limbo, awaiting a transplant. Until then I will be seldom seen. Good point made about Shona, I hope he's back soon. Yours intermittently,
Max
Max, speaking from beyond the grave by ouija board, quavered: My absence is due to a death in my immediate family - my CPU's fan died, and so my poor PC is in limbo, awaiting a transplant.
And you do live in such a remote part of the country. Bound to be next to no fan clubs around in Hastings, hm?
What about growing PCs in embryo to provide timely transplants which match your PC's blood type exactly? Has anybody deciphered the PC genome?
In reply to:
Bound to be next to no fan clubs around in Hastings, hm?
The part in question must be shipped from that unpseakable hellhole north of the Bombays - it's a freebie as the PC is still under warranty. My "ouija board" is the PC of a close friend of mine, the Rarotongan who first introduced me to puke His system runs Windows ME with 128MB of RAM, and it is as slow as my Win98 with only 64. Fortunately, as he's only had it a month, the "gee whizz" factor hasn't worn off yet. I, on th other hand, am salivating at the prospect of jumping from 64MB to 192 in the near future.
Max planchetted: His system runs Windows ME with 128MB of RAM, and it is as slow as my Win98 with only 64
Well, you do realise that although ME is supposed to mean "Millenium Edition", it was first coined by MS staff when they realised how slow it ran. What it really stands for is "mialgic encephalytis". Taihape 'flu, in other words. Same thing that most couriers from Jafaland have ...