Dear Nuncle Bill, I call a YART! and a recent one too - have a look at "Caution Regarding Speaking English" - you have posted there yo'sef.

You wuz, Bill.
You couldn't stand up and face the yartic onslaught, huh? - shame on you. But at least two of us caught you out :-).
I wouldn't worry too much though - our minds naturally sieve out things not worth remembering -just proved how trivial it was in the first place, right.

I noticed it also; but then I'm too nice a guy to call a yart on dr. bill.

-ron (and if you believe that...) obvious

http://home.mn.rr.com/wwftd/

And I noticed, but when I called YART a couple of days ago, I was chastised for calling it!

... chastised for calling it!

Where are they? Lemmee at'em...

I am just sufficiently masochistic to enjoy having provided a bit of merriment. Slightly senile citizen.

> chastised for calling it!

You can't win round here, you little celestial, angelic nimbussed angel you. You get admonished for recycling any kind of thought (J. Joyce turning in grave emotivecon;-), and then if you pick someone up on a repetition, all hell breaks lose. You just can't win. Just don't take it to heart, now you hear?

Your chubby cherub,

Chris

Nietzsche's Argument for the Eternal Return:

If the world may be thought of as a certain definite quantity of force and as a certain definite number of centers of force -- and every other representation remains indefinite and therefore useless -- it follows that, in the great dice game of existence, it must pass through a calculable number of combinations. In infinite time, every possible combination would at some time or another be realized; more: it would be realized an infinite number of times. And since between every combination and its next recurrence all other possible combinations would have to take place, and each of these combinations conditions the entire sequence of combinations in the same series, a circular movement of absolutely identical series is thus demonstrated: the world as a circular movement that has already repeated itself infinitely often and plays its dice game in infinitum. [6]

Nietzsche's Presentation of the Eternal Return --
In modern times, the doctrine is most closely associated with Friedrich Nietzsche. Here's how Nietzsche first puts it:

The greatest weight -- What, if some day or night a demon were to steal after you into your loneliest loneliness and say to you: "This life as you now live it and have lived it, you will have to live once more and innumerable times more; and there will be nothing new in it, but every pain and every joy and every thought and sigh and everything unutterably small or great in your life will have to return to you, all in the same succession and sequence -- even this spider and this moonlight between the trees, and even this moment and I myself. The eternal hourglass of existence is turned upside down again and again, and you with it, speck of dust!

Would you not throw yourself down and gnash your teeth and curse the demon who spoke thus? Or have you once experienced a tremendous moment when you would have answered him: "You are a god and never have I heard anything more divine." If this thought gained possession of you, it would change you as you are or perhaps crush you. The question in each and every thing, "Do you desire this once more and innumerable times more?" would lie upon your actions as the greatest weight. Or how well disposed would you have to become to yourself and to life to crave nothing more fervently than this ultimate eternal confirmation and seal? [3]

In another book, Thus Spoke Zarathustra, Nietzsche invents a character named Zarathustra, a wandering philosopher who has many adventures. In one adventure, Zarathustra climbs a mountain and argues with his arch-enemy, a dwarf named the Spirit of Gravity (sort of the spirit of depression and despair). Zarathustra has a vision of the eternal return:

Behold this moment!, Zarathustra said. From this gateway [called] Moment, a long, eternal lane runs back: an eternity lies behind us.

Must not all things that can run have already run along this lane? Must not all things that can happen have already happened, been done, run past?

And if all things have been here before: what do you think of this moment, dwarf? Must not this gateway, too, have been here -- before?

And are not all things bound fast together in such way that this moment draws after it all future things? Therefore -- draws itself too?

For all things that can run must also run once again forward along this long lane.

And this slow spider that creeps along in the moonlight, and this moonlight itself, and I and you at this gateway whispering together, whispering of eternal things -- must we not all have been here before?

-- and must we not return and run down that other lane out before us, down that long, terrible lane -- must we not return eternally? [4]

For the complete discussion here's the site url:
http://www.wpunj.edu/cohss/philosophy/courses/livedead/RETURN.HTM


So you see? 'Tis all a Yart/Tray, or Tray/Yart anyway!

Let the record show that I sent Angel a humble acknowledgement of my error, without any resentment of her having blown the whistle on me. I am pezzo de venti due,not important enough to warrant a more elaborate peccavi.

Nice one Whitman!

>everything unutterably small or great in your life will have to return to you

Yep, I know that feeling.

The only thing I ever tackled by Nietzsche so far was "Vom Nutzen und Nachteil der Historie' (concerning the use and disadvantages of history). I like the extracts you provided though. Funny, the concept he describes is not really new to me - I've conceived of it before. It's nice to find a similar trail of concepts expressed in his ultra-sound logic and strict language though, eh. Eternal return gives new meaningless to deja-vu - doesn't it?

Glad you enjoyed it, by! I only regret that I never kept up with my German (I studied 3 years in high school, and then let it go...dummy me) so I could read Nietzsche, Jung, Goethe, Herman Hesse, and others, in the original language. Eveything, of course, but especially works like these with their keen spiritual and psycological insight, lose so much in translation.
I would heartily recommend, by, that you put Nietzsche's Thus Spoke Zarathustra and Beyond Good and Evil on your must-read list. His "God is dead" quote is taken so out of context, and only half the quote, that it has been used as a banner by scientists and anti-secularists alike. The full quote, never intended to denigrate and dismiss spirituality IMHO (except perhaps in an organized religion sense) is: "God is dead; God died of his pity for man."

Here's the excerpt from Thus Spoke Zarathustra:

"And if a friend does you evil, then say: 'I forgive you what you did to me; but that you have done it to yourself -- how could I forgive that?' Thus speaks all great love: it overcomes even forgiveness and pity."
"Thus spoke the devil to me once more: 'God too has his hell: that is his love of man.' And most recently I heard him say this: 'God is dead; God died of his pity for man.'"
"All great love is even above all its pity: for it still wants to create the beloved."


Big difference than just those three "little" words, eh?

[Edit:] Here is another quote from TSZ where Nietzsche speaks of spirit, to show he is not dismissive of spiritual things:

"Spirit is the life that itself cuts into life; with its own agony it increases its own knowledge."

Let the record show that I sent Angel a humble acknowledgement of my error...

You did? When? Where?

...without any resentment of her having blown the whistle on me.

Awwwwww...thank you, Dr. Bill!

I am pezzo de venti due,not important enough to warrant a more elaborate peccavi.

Uhmmmmm.....English please for we monolinguists! TYVM.

My, my. how wordy are you and Nietzsche, Whit-o,
(are we spelling his name right?) but wasn't Zoroaster the top daddy of supermanism?

Don't get me wrong, Nietzsche is my hero. Anyone who has read the song of zarathustra will likely agree.

In another book, Thus Spoke Zarathustra, Nietzsche invents a character named Zarathustra, a wandering philosopher who has many adventures. In one adventure, Zarathustra climbs a mountain and argues with his arch-enemy, a dwarf named the Spirit of Gravity (sort of the spirit of depression and despair).

This is very similar to a story written for children (I'm sure he borrowed heavily from Nietsche) by Tony Robinson - the very versatile actor and writer who played Baldrick in the Blackadder series and who cut his teeth on Who Dares Wins back in the 80s.

It was turned into a brilliant series on Children's television and Tony monologued the entire story whilst walking through appropriate sets.

In one story the hero meets a dwarf on a cliff top who, with distinct gloom, declares 'One of us will soon meet our doom'. The hero ponders this for a mo, says 'fair enough' and kicks the dwarf off the cliff.

I know I was a bit old to be watching Kids' TV (I was 20 or so at the time) but Tony Robinson is too good to be missed.

(are we spelling his name right?) but wasn't Zoroaster the top daddy of supermanism?

Milum, I've seen his name spelled several different ways, but this is the most prevalent and widely accepted (YCLUI). I'm familiar with Zoroaster and Zoroasterism, but haven't researched it to the extent I would have liked. I tend to disagree with the superman interpretation of übermensch, though, and believe that, like may philospohical and spiritual texts, it has been widely misinterpretated over the years. Here is a passage of such a discussion I pasted over from the O'Neill thread because of its pertinence here:

From notes on Thus Spoke Zarathustra by Tad Beckman:

"Nietzsche has also framed this concept in his image of the "übermensch," or "overman." In this vision, man is a temporary creature, a "crossing over." Just as an individual must overcome himself, man himself must be overcome. The overman is not man as we know him; it is a new being, perhaps, unthinkably beyond us and living with new values in the spirit of Yes-saying to life."

(übermensch, of course, has been misinterpreted as superman rather than overman by the Nazis and others to fortify their message and for propaganda purposes).

This is very similar to a story written for children (I'm sure he borrowed heavily from Nietsche) by Tony Robinson - the very versatile actor and writer who played Baldrick in the Blackadder series and who cut his teeth on Who Dares Wins back in the 80s.

Yes, Rubrick! It is interesting that Tony Robinson borrows this Nietzschean scenario for his sketch. I love Black Adder! Funny stuff! They used to run the show regularly on Public Televison here, but it has vanished for the last 10 years or so. The scene you describe reminds me of a similar bit in Black Adder's Christmas where Scrooge kicks the beggar boy off the ladder at his window while nobody's looking. Dark humor, no doubt...but very effective!

Restraint... is... the... better... part... of... valor.