Yes, I am serious. I found out yesterday that my dear friend Geoff had received some private messages, and as a result decided he does not belong here, and deleted this place from his computer. [pause to try and regain control e]
I don't know what was said, or by whom. But I didn't want him to depart unknown and unmourned. I am putting this in this category because humor is where he felt the most comfortable. I find it extremely ironic that, just two days ago, I wrote to him and told him that his posts seemed to indicate he was feeling more sure of himself. [another pause...] I just want to curl up on somebody's lap.
Stick and Stone may break my bones
But words will never harm me!
we here know that is not true-- we come here because we value words-- and we should recognize that the pen (or keyboard!) is truly a might scepter- and sometimes we are careless about how we use them.
It's hard-- yes, i come here and open up to everyone here-- i value your words (as i hope you value mine) and because i do, i open myself up to being hurt by your words..
any place where the are more than 2 people, there is some sort of politics going on-- friend form, cliques form, parties form-- and some are going to serious disagree, and some are going to become allies..That is human nature..
It saddens me when some one comes here, joins us, and then is savaged by words. I don't know what is worse -- to be publicly ripped to shreads, or to be privately! some time i think a public display of anger/hostility is better--
It has happened, sometimes seriously, sometimes in jest -- and when it does, when i see someone, who's words i value being attached-- i come to their defense-- as do many other here.
I don't know the solution.. i just hope i can learn to be as careful about how i use powerful words as i am when ever i use other tool/devise that has the power to hurt.
Jackie, i know you will do your best to convince Geoff, as you have others, that their contributions here are valued. I don't agree with every one here-- sometime i strongly disagree with positions, thoughts, ideas expressed here. but crossing thread, more than anything, i value the freedom of expression i have here.. and like Kieva, i would much rather have ideas i don't like -- being given a free airing-- than live in world where i could not freely express my own ideas.
Dear Jackie: Thanks for posting about Geoff. You mentioned once before that he was vulneerable to criticism, and I think the disagreeable people who have hurt his feelings ought to be identified and shown how much we despise their conduct.
Here is Geoff's e-mail address: geoffs@hevanet.com
Let us all send him e-mail telling him we earnestly entreat him to stay with us.
I have greatly enjoyed Geoff's spirit on this board!! Terrific sense of humor that helps the board.
I have received some nasty PM's myself and each time I reel over why human beings must show their disdain, sense of superiority, and critcism so nastily. I know how Geoff feels, but what's goes around comes around, and I must believe that people who are intentionally cold, cruel, critical, hateful, nasty, superior, poisonous, jabbing, inconsiderate, you name it--it'll hurt you briefly--they are going to suffer eventually.
Sure, a little jiving around it ok--tsuwm gives me grief regularly--and I don't mind it at all that he writes that I am a muddy, dull mud puddle. That's different--but whoever gave Geoff a hard time shouldn't have. He's warm and fun--and is one of the warmest, truest voices we've got on this board.
My two cents and little bit of change left over,
DubDub
I think that PMs are a wonderful way to communicate with other board members about things not necessarily of interest to all. But I don't think that recipient of a nasty PM ought to suffer in silence. I would like to see nasty PMs posted for whole group to see and judge.
dr. bill, anticipating that others may disagree with your last sentence, I for one heartily agree.
IMHO nasty PM's -- which may be coming from only a small number of ayleurs -- have generated so much hurt as to be destructive to our board. One would wish that simple self-restraint would suffice avoid such nastiness, but experience has shown that it does not. To decry it, without doing anything about it except wring our collective hands, is not going to help.
I have trouble imagining a mechanism for regulating nasty PMs that would not compromise the implied privacy of the medium. While the publication of what one felt objectionable would allow the rest of us to determine for ourselves whether we think that categorization appropriate, the originator of the PM could easily object to the public display of what was intended as constructive criticism. I have had misunderstandings with more than one member of this community; it is an occupational hazard of being a Fool. We have generally worked out mutual understanding through PMs but if one of those those PM volleys had gone awry I would not want them broadcast to the community at large. There is one (at least) member of this community that some may feel should be shielded from abuse that I have treated without kid gloves. I honestly believe from the public reactions of this individual as well as through PMs that the person not only does not mind, but appreciates being treated in this manner. Sometimes being pitied can be the worst abuse of all.
I think my point here is that I would find publication (or at least attributed publication) of Private Messages more objectionable than the loss of members of the community. And even if we did encourage publication of Private Messages, would we vote on whether the offended person should leave because of the offense? People who are here for the purpose of being objectionable are not likely to leave for being exposed as being objectionable; we would all know that the person was objectionable anyway. The only consequence I can see resulting from a policy of publishing PMs would be the holding up to ridicule of those who are trying to offer helpful advice.
The privacy of PMs applies to everything except nastiness. I simply do not accept the idea that any one of us can be nasty to anyone else and require that it be kept a secret. I think it unlikely that there would be false accusations made.
The privacy of PMs applies to everything except nastiness.
And who is to judge what is nastiness on the part of the sender and what is thin skin on the part of the receiver?
This is such a difficult side issue of this board. Words fail me in my attempt to communicate my sorrow that some people do not know how to offer constructive criticism in a kindly manner. It is usually the nicest people that are hurt the worst by unkind words. Please take time to think and temper your words if you feel you must offer criticism. There are so many of us here that would leave if we were treated harshly.
I read every post eagerly awaiting the punchline.
You HAVE to be kidding! I cannot imagine being so sensitive as to stop frequenting a place I enjoy (whether that be a board, a bar, a church, a coffeeshop, etc.) just because a few people are mean to me.
Again, please tell me this is a joke.
"And who is to judge what is nastiness on the part of the sender and what is thin skin on
the part of the receiver?"
If a member posts a nasty PM he has received, he naturally risks exposing his having deserved it, or having erroneously concluded that he had been injured.
My hope would be that there would be fewer nasty PMs if perpetrators had to risk exposing their nastiness.
A nasty PM is the sign of complete cowardice. Boards are pretty anonymous - if the individual cares to keep it that way - so for someone to lambast another 'privately' is the ultimate in gutless.
Now on the other hand, to be bothered by anonymous nasties? Please. Sometimes we just have to ignore and move on. I'm having a hard time feeling sorry for an adult who 'takes his ball and goes home' because a few people were mean to him.
Go ahead and nasty PM me if you think I'm totally off base. OR, be adult about it and do it right here!
I don't think there's any reason for anyone to be directly criticising anyone in PMs. If you want that kind of forum, hey, there are plenty out there. Go online and tell people in general exactly what you think of them. Of course, they'll give as good as they get, but that's the chance you gotta take.
If you don't like what someone's saying, do what I do and just ignore that thread. Or do what I also do and respond, politely, on the forum. They're entitled to their opinion, and you're not entitled to abuse them for expressing it.
There are some members of this board with whom I probably don't share a lot other than a general interest in the language. That's probably true for all of us. But it's the diversity which matters as much as anything else.
DON'T ABUSE PEOPLE IN PMs!
"not indulging in cowardly personal vendettas behind the cloak of privacy or anonymity. "
Hear, Hear!
The music and magic of words -- that's what A.Word.A.Day (AWAD) is about.
Come, explore the world of words, share it with other wordlovers, and delight in the joy of words. (emphasis mine)
If we can't enjoy ourselves here, why bother? It's not thin skin that drives anyone away. It is the theft of joy that mean-spirited PMs bring that does it.
Alphatists, arise! Start lots of new word threads. It's the worn-out old ones that provoke ribaldry.
...the need to be abusive or vitriolic in PMs
This is to me the crux of the entire matter. Disagreement is fine. Strong disagreement is fine. Abuse and vitriol are simply not excusable (I hesitate to say not acceptable), be they public or private, particularly in a venue such as this.
Unfortunately, it is too easy to hurt feelings, even without abuse or vitriol. I have been misunderstood when I did not mean to offend. The thing that upsets me is that I know of more than two people who have left because their feelings were needlessly hurt. I have said things that later I wished I had not. But now, please, let's have some new topics to post about.
Here's some words to ponder: respect, acceptance, tollerance, and caring
These seem to be missing at times. I too have been the victim of nasty PM's and personal attacks. Having not even been here a month, I considered leaving too. Then I decided to give those attackers, the respect that they did not give me.
In a forum such as this, it is very easy to get your feelings hurt, or to be the one doing the hurting. We sometimes misunderstand what another is saying in a post, or take their post the wrong way. I have appreciated, greatly, those who have addressed me in PM, who have pointed out a misunderstanding in my words or theirs.
And I have made some new friends here as well. I will reach out to each of you at some point to say hello. Please feel free to do the same. I have gained considerable knowledge while reading the board, and through the PM's that have come my way.
But let's get back to those words: respect, acceptance, tollerance, and caring and practice them with one another.
I'm proud to have this post make me a member of this board. And I'm very happy to know each and every one of you.
For better or worse, this board is not simply a forum for the discussion of words and language. It is a community - a group of people tied together by their (metaphorical) proximity. As such, the members (using the term loosely) unconsciously develop a set of norms; a way of doing things. It is this unconsciousness, the fact that a community does not objectively view "normal" that is the cause of many problems for newcomers, strangers et al. Even in the brief time over which I have assimilated into this community, the ties that bind us have become much tighter - exemplified by the existence of WORDAPALOOZA. I think nothing of the trans-tasman rivalry in which I have become embroiled (exaggeration for effect), but, as a previous thread demonstrated, an outsider may well be shocked by this love-hate relationship. It is the nature of the long-term members to return fire, albeit good-naturedly, when attacked or when feeling vulnerable, but to do so to a newcomer is a recipe for trouble, which even the glorious welcoming party which greets new entrants can not diffuse. Conversely, a new member is not going to be welcomed if they break the norms of the community, regardless of whether they are consciously berated or just appear to have a negative je ne sais qois. The fault lies not in the people, but rather in the system.
Tune in next week for the solution. [tongue-in-cheek-e]
An open letter to Geoff,
Why punish me? I looked forward to years of discussion with you on the awad board. You have an open mind that is needed in the awad mix. Please read those private messages again. And if you still think that they are in any way out of order, I will trust your judgment, and join you in telling the writers of those foul posts to go straight to Hell.
Milo Washington
(Milum)
PS: My last PM to Geoff was... Great post, Geoff.
What was yall's?
The vitriol is at the root of the problem. I definitely think that PM's are just that: private. And better to send a vitriolic PM than show public vitriol.
But no vitriol at all is best. It's so judgmental--and I cannot think of a single member here who has the right to speak with a scowl as though representing the board, even a portion of it.
We grow here by our variety of approaches and voices. Flaming, whether private or public, categorically ruins the health of a board. I have seriously considered leaving altogether twice now--as I am certain others have from what has been written to me privately.
I strongly suggest to each of us to keep our attacks in our hearts, realize that none of us has to write to attack personally, none of us has earned the right to judge--we are equals. And if some injustice arises in something that is posted on the board, to handle that judgment with care. Is it really worth the fight, and, if it's truly worth the fight, to approach the poster in a spirit of obvious good will--no subtle knives dug in at all.
wwh: the ice is coming down here at the farm and I'll set my mind to word questions.
However, an attack is not something easily forgotten. It leaves a scar.
Geoff: come back!!! You're definitely not alone in this. A lot of us have been there.
Best regards,
WW
This post has been in consideration for five months. In my humble but considered opinion:
First, many may not appreciate how very severe the problem is. In the last halfedit: should read "six" months of 2001, precisely three people came on as new posters and stayed long enough even to reach the member level. A mere three people. This board is simply not attracting and keeping new voices.
Thus in practice (though not in theory) we have become a closed club -- a secret society. We profess openness, but we run off new people by requiring that no one may join us unless, as the price of admission, he is thick-skinned enough to run a gauntlet of criticism. We do that knowing full well, from experience, that few will tolerate that price. I cite that as historical data, not expressing judgment.
Second, it is of no use to simply wish that critics would be more kind, or that their targets more thick-skinned. Wishing the world were different will not make it so.
Third, in this thread we are repeating ourselves. We have already discussed this topic extensively, shortly before and after September 11. If we do nothing different from what we did then, we have no right to expect different results. Talk is cheap, but are we merely mouthing platitudes, talking the good talk to cover for being unwilling to act?
Fourth, I appreciate that this board does not feel comfortable with the course of action I stated then. Repeating, for reference only "We can all deplore rudeness, and cruelty, and bullying, and violence, but we cannot stop them with mere deploring words. In the real world they will ever exist, and we are responsible for how we act - or fail to act -- accordingly. Cruelty, bullying and violence are weeds, and will spread ever-wider unless checked. There is but one way to deal effectively with the most vigorous and vile weeds: to deracinate them, thoroughly and promptly. One can hope to be careful and gentle, but never at the risk of losing sight of the job that must be done."
In the months since then, it has become clear that others are not prepared to deal in that way with rudeness on the board. As best I can tell, one can count on one's fingers the number of times that anyone, other than me, has stood up to object that a specific post is hurtful. It also appears that the board disapproves when I stand up in what I have intended to be that manner. Accordingly, I will desist.
Fifth and last, I raise no moral objection to a closed club -- but I do not personally feel comfortable being part of one. And purely as a matter of personal taste, I do not wish to be part of a board where people are willing to tolerate the hurtfulness we have seen in past months. This I can get from chat rooms. Other people are of course perfectly entitled to act as they wish, but I will be departing unless I sense a change in how we act as to rudeness, not merely how we talk about it.
I just want to remind others that Geoff said he was deleting AWAD software. So PMs or posts won't help. Send him e-mail. His address is in his bio.
Who are these people? We keep hearing of people being driven away by overly harsh pms, but I have no idea who the people sending them are. I can't say I've ever had any pms that have been less than courteous (not that I'm complaining, mind
), and many that have a shown a touching concern for my wellbeing.
Sometimes things have got a little rough on the board, but usually these have centred on topics where passions are predictably riding high and where a certain immoderation in the use of language can be discounted and should certainly not be taken personally. Politicians in any country may be professionally obliged to believe that anyone who disagrees with them is a fool or a villain, but that doesn't mean the rest of us have to follow their example.
Keiva recommends public reaction to hurtful posts. I wonder if this does not just prolong the agony? Except in the most egregious examples, I suspect a pm of support to the wounded party expressing support would be more effective.
Bingley
well, I have made my feelings known personally to Geoff on that specific issue, but here I only will comment on the general.
People come, people go, and interminable discussion of what we are, and what we do here, gets somewhat boring. Let's talk (preferably with language as the main focus) as long as we are mutually interested, and desist when not.
In other ways I agree with Bingley and Max. and FWIW, I personally find sanctimony and puffed up grandiloquence as off-putting as rudeness, which is often in the eye of the beholder
I have not read posts here attacking another Board member personally
Max, you have got to be kidding.
In other ways I agree with Bingley and Max. and FWIW, I personally find sanctimony and puffed up grandiloquence as off-putting as rudeness, which is often in the eye of the beholder
Here! Here!
"personally find sanctimony and puffed up grandiloquence as off-putting as rudeness, "
That sounds like archie talking. Or the guy who didn't want "any steenkin' Greeks"
hey, Bill, don't kick my mate archie when he's not even around to defend himself!
I have not read posts here attacking another Board member personally
Max, you have got to be kidding.
In this kind of discussion, I feel often that there is a cultural fact about the way of living and interacting in the USA.
I will try to explain: we Europeans are usually - as far as I know - less careful about beeing kind, so in some sense we grow "with an harder skin" and we don't feel really offended or invased, even if an American would feel that way in the same condition.
As an example, in my country it is possible to meet an old friend after a long time, to hit him on a shoulder, and say "che ti prenda un colpo"= literally "(hope that you can die now) by an heart attack"!
And, believe it or not, it MEANS AFFECTION!
Hmmm, that's interesting emanuela. Off the top of my head I can only think of the expression "break a leg" as a negative expression meaning something positive (good luck).
The differences between Europeans and USns is much like the difference between city dwellers and country folk. Country boys know everybody in town, and know that their reputation will suffer if they are disagreeable. City boys know only the people in the neighborhood, and don't give a damn about anyone outside it. They get used to hostility from the outsiders, and pride themselves on being 'street wise" with a full repertoire of insults to repay insults received, and vastly superior to us country boys.
Country boys . . . City boysSo what about us suburban boys? Are we schizophrenic?
Are we schizophrenic?Let's just call you "A bridge over troubled waters"
This, learned at Grandpa's knee and taken to heart, may be to the point.
"There's so much bad in the best of us,
And so much good in the worst of us,
It ill behooves any of us
To speak ill of the rest of us."
For anyone having trouble finding Geoff's Email address it is geoffs@hevanet.com
"Are we schizophrenic?" That's a term I nominate for oblivion. It was based on a total misconception, and ought to be replaced, if it hasn't already. I haven't seen a diagnostic manual for many years, so don't know what term may be preferred now.
America is practically all suburb now, with some blending of country and city.
That's a big continent you're describing thusly, Dr. Bill.
Except for a few *areas up south (which shall remain unmentioned) he's a lot less than half wrong!
Except for a few *areas up south (which shall remain unmentioned) he's a lot less than half wrong!Ahem. As one who has relatively recently travelled from one side of your country to the other, let me inform you that there is ONE HELL OF A LOT OF OPEN SPACE. The conurbations aside along with the desire of everyone to live on their own 10-acre block, there is still a lot of room for all the illegal immigrants that Pat Buchanan got so upset about on Fox the other night!
Dear CK: Don't confuse me with facts.
Although development of land 20yrs ago round here was still creating those 10 acre lots, the trend seems to more around 1 acre (granted that's still 7 times larger than a city lot) with some shared grasses with yer neighbor, streets that curve a bit (just to fool you into thinking yer livin the good life) and gated off *communities (in the city we just gate off the whole lot) that'll allow you to paint yer house any color you want, as long as it's 'grey'... and speaking of automobiles, you better get a new one every three years cause yer gonna put 150,000 miles on it during that time just to get to werk 'n back.
FWIW - A lot of the farmland in this state is rapidly turning into this (whenever *they can pry it out of their cold dead hands)
And some even bigger areas down in the Far North.But one has to be able to *live there!
http://www.mwscomp.com/movies/mol/m-09-iv.htm
The whole of the Ozarks seems to be divided up into large blocks - I won't argue about the 10 acres; it's the standard in New Zealand, and I sure as shootin' warn't gettin' outta my auto-mobyle in them thar backwoods with no surveyin' gear, no sirree bob!
The tricky-woo part is that almost all of the houses were of the transportable kind. Can any of you USns tell me how much those things cost? There seems to be one pattern, more or less, across the whole of the US of A. Almost as ubiquitous as U-Haul.
The other thing I seek clarification on is how these people make a living. They're hours away from the nearest cities - Jefferson and Little Rock. They can't all be retired, and they can't all run shops in little towns like Mountain View, one of the more misnamed places we visited. Stands to reason that since most of their sections are covered in forest they can't be growing huge amounts of weed. And a lot of them obviously don't have telephone or electricity.
[Duelling-Banjos-playing-menacingly-in-the-background -e]
Something tells me Canadians get more than ten acres if they dare venture further down.
The only thing that I could imagine that accounted for the 10 acre size is early indentured servant laws, later homesteading or possibly just an easy size to "deed out" when yer choppin up yer farmland to lots of people with varying amounts on money to spend. I'll leave the rest of the story fer someone who originates there.
That song has been in yer head for a while now, I think yer fate is sealed. Let me know when you get yer retirement and we'll have us an old fashioned house-building party!