I read today, that the colour that we know as "pink" was not ever thus.

Any idea of the name we give to the colour that used to be called "pink"?

{colourful replies are acceptable}

Quote your source.
AnnaS requested that Jo quote her source.
at wow & CapK.

>Quote your source

The National Trust magazine (England & Wales) - Spring 2001, article on paint colours used in National Trust properties.

good enough?

Works for me.

hurtling into OldHandhood

I don't know what color pink used to be, but I'm hoping your source can answer my previously posed question of why we have a special word to describe pastel red?

>pastel red

Maybe that was why it changed. You can't say "Pastel red to make the boys wink".

Not to answer your question, but.

There is a group of flowers known as xxx pink (xxx = e.g., swamp, mullein, clove, etc.) the colors of which seem to center vaguely around the color we now know as pink. Have to run an OED to find out which way that went.

AHD lists the origin of the word pink in the context of color or flowers as Unknown. The other pink comes from the Latin pingere.

Um… technically speaking (which technician?), pink is not a whiter shade of red. In printing, and in art, pink is treated as a special colour in its own right, whereas 'light' red, is usually referred to as a screen (0% to 100% - some of you will be able to recreate this in the 'special colours' section in your computer's graphics area) of red. Similarly, grey is not necessarily the same as a screen of black, though in the four colour printing process (using cyan, magenta, yellow and black), a screen of black stands in for grey as a screen of red (with a dash of blue) stands in for pink. For authenticity, however, you might add a fifth colour to your printing (adding cost as well), such as 'special pink' (also available as a poster paint colour, and it stinks like something it would be obscene and inappropriate to characterise on this board).

This, convolutedly, is the reason why we don't say 'light black' or 'light red' - they are conventionally treated in art as separate colours in their own right - and you will not be able to mix up a convincing pink with just red and white - at least some blue will be involved. And no, that doesn't make it 'merely' light purple either.

Actually, the issue of colour cropped up in a thread some months ago, and tsuwm the magnificent linked us to an absolutely marvellous site that told yu more about colour than your were ever minded to know. If you try a search on color, spectrum, or color wheel, you might find the thread.

And Jo, was it called 'rose' like the French? Or 'madder'? (Or is that redundant?)

cheer

the sunshine warrior

I looked "pink" up to try to make a jest about it being the color on a white shirt after being tinted by a rapier stained with hemoglobin. The etymology suggests this was the original meaning .I was surprised to find that foxhunters' colors were called pink. But the first definition referred to the flower so well known.

I was going to make a note about the foxhunter's coat, which is actually scarlet, but Bill beat me to it. I have heard that the reason it's called 'pink' is because that was the name of the tailor who first made one. Can anyone verify or correct this?

While we're on this red-color binge/tinge, I take the opportunity to lament the contemporary ignorance of the common shades of red. Few people nowadays know the difference between scarlet and crimson, or are even aware that there is a difference.

And that leads me to a rant on the blue colors. It seems that no one anymore knows that there is a color called violet, which is not the same as purple. At least 95% of the time, when people say/write 'purple' they really mean 'violet' or some shade of violet, like lavender or lilac.

>I was going to make a note about the foxhunter's coat, which is actually scarlet, but Bill beat me to it. I have heard that the reason it's called 'pink' is because that was the name of the tailor who first made one. Can anyone verify or correct this?

Not I, but I find it interesting that you bring up tailoring... this whole thread got me started on the possible link between pink the color and pink the verb, denoting the zig-zag cuts made by tailors' pinking shears ~

Hmmmm...

Dear Bob: did the tailor you mention also invent pinking shears?

I have heard that a rabbi became famous for circumcising with pinking shears (Please don't hit me, Shoshannah)

And that leads me to a rant on the blue colors. It seems that no one anymore knows that there is a color called violet, which is not the same as purple. At least 95% of the time, when people say/write 'purple' they really mean 'violet' or some shade of violet, like lavender or lilac

I think part of it is because names for colors aren't as nailed down as we'd like to think. If you go hunting for art supplies, you'll find out that truth rather quickly. Heck, go try and buy a can of house paint!

Every child that goes to school has classes in the reading and writing of a language, but not nearly so many take classes that go into the classification and composition of color. Even then, it's a confused subject. It's why any smart artist has a look at a proof of a print, before it goes into production, because your idea of "cobalt blue", and the printer's idea of "cobalt blue" isn't necessarily the same. Right and wrong doesn't come into it.

I could rant a good while on art and colors, but I think I'll spare the people reading this thread, this time.

I checked my books for "pink", but in art they have more to say about how to make colors, than why they're called that.

Ali

The article said that pink used to be yellow!

I've mailed them for more information as I can't find anything on the net about it. Here is a reply from a website that I discovered:

Hi Jo,
You are right, Old Holland still has some pinks that are yellow, PR101- synthetic iron oxide, Italian Brown Pink Lake. They are not opaque yellows. I think "pink" meant duel-toned, changing color when a clear medium is used to
lighten the basic color.
Don

Here is the "Artist on Location" webRing
http://www.mauigateway.com/~donjusko/artistonlocation.htm
Many thanks to Don Jusko!

I heard Pink and Pinks (even if they were yellow) got there name from their "pinked" edges-- so Fibrebabe was on the right track--

Pinks had pinked edges-- a kind of zig zag or saw toothed edge.. and gave there name to the color. Pinking shears are named because they too, create a pinked edge-- This was a word i remember looking up as a child-- i wondered why "Pinking shears" where pinking shears.. what was pinking? I wasn't sure if Pink the color and pinking were releated-- and didn't know pinks as flower at all! (but now it have them in my garden! -- easy to grow short lived perennial!)

I believe pinking shears are from an unrelated verb, meaning prick or pick (holes in...).

There is an old tailory firm in London called Thomas (?) Pink, but another idea I've heard is that only the Sovereign was allowed to use red (= "scarlet") livery, so others had to use a different colour. (We're talking heraldic colours here, where there are no fine distinctions.) But I can't vouch for either of these.

Before the flower "pink" came to be used to describe colours, pink things were probably called red, in fact. Languages vary in how many basic colour terms they have, and English is exceptional in having (about) eleven. Most have less.

The smallest number of basic colour terms is two (warm/dark vs cool/light). Some languages have three, with red as the third term. Then blue/green is the fourth. A language that has six colour terms almost certainly has black, white, red, yellow, green, and blue.

Beyond that, it varies. We have grey, brown, purple, pink, and orange, for a total of eleven. At least, Roget's use those eleven. Many English-speakers would agree they have those eleven. But it does vary a bit from person to person. Some would say purple was a kind of blue, orange was a kind of yellow or red.

By "basic" I mean a set of shades. If you own a scarlet car, you own a red car. If you own an ultramarine or cerulean pencil, you own a blue one. (Here's the answer to another post here: purple is the generic term covering mauve, lavender, and violet, as well as being a specific shade in contrast to violet or mauve.)

Historically you can see the expansion of the English colour system. In Old English there were the six most fundamental colour terms, plus grey and brown. Then came purple (originally = crimson, the dye from the porphyry or murex), and pink from the flower, and orange from the fruit. These have became basic terms in modern English, so for most people, if something is pink, it isn't red. (Ignore borderline cases: think of the pinkest pink and the reddest red. It's been demonstrated across languages that's its focal shades, not borders, that are important for colour naming.)

This usage is influencing other languages. The European equivalents rose, orange etc are increasingly used as distinct colour names rather than shade names.

I should think women would go nuts trying to keep track of meaning of names for colors that clothing designers keep coining and changing.
It took me a while to find out what beige meant originaly - the color of undyed wool.

I should think women would go nuts trying to keep track of meaning of names for colors that clothing designers keep coining and changing.

No kidding. One year's "avacado" is "misty fern" the next. If only it stuck to clothing, though. One particular color in art supplies that drives me nuts is "indian red". It changed to "tuscan red", then "terra cotta". I have to bring left overs of whatever color I need to replenish, just to be sure I'm getting something close.

Car colors can get wierd too (along with the car names). I'm sure there are plenty of other examples for other products as well. I blame marketing "experts".

Ali

I dunno-- I am tone deaf-- i mean really bad-- but colors for me each color is pure and sings to me. I can track colors mentally-- many "colors" change depending on the light source-- incandesant/ floresent/natural daylight. but its not a problem for me.

It is one of the few characteristics that my mother really valued in me as a child. She was a seamstress and workded at home. she frequently sent me for buttons, thread and bindings and rarely questioned my matches. even when i brought home what looked to be a brown thread for a purplish fabric-- i was always right-- and as she stitched up the clothes, she had to admit it! I was grown before i realize not everyone could see colors with the same intensity i did.

When i first had a house, and need to patch a wall-- i amazed my husband by being able to "re-mix" a batch of paint to match the paint on the wall-- which is hard, since paint usually dries to a different color.

So to me, avacodo and misty fern are two very different colors... some of the hardest colors to name are shades of grey-- was it slate, or lead, or steel, or dove? biege and ecru are very different-- (natural wool and natural linen) I am very picky about colors, and hate when people "match" a blue red to a an orange red-- (it must be akin to some one with a "good ear" hearing me sing!)

we might be able to limit ourselves to 11 basic names for colors... but some colors, for me, are compounds-- a redish red orange (for a tomato, say) or a very redish blue red for a raspberry. raspberry red is very different than tomato red!

color names
What of the names given to the colors of the visible spectrum, which includes blue, indigo, and violet, three distinct colors which most people would lump together under "blue". This also makes my point that violet is akin to blue, not to red, to which purple is akin. In other words, purple is a reddish hue, violet is a bluish hue, but people keep using the term "purple" when they mean "violet".

heraldic colors
This introduces an interesting subject. The heraldic colors (more properly called "tinctures") have French names, of course, since the heraldic system was developed under the Normans, who spoke Norman French, even in England. The tinctures are:
argent -- originally silver, represented on paper as white
or -- originally gold, represented on paper as yellow
sable -- black
gules -- red, either scarlet or crimson
azure -- blue, usually cerulean
vert -- green, usually a fairly deep green, not light green
These are the standard tinctures; also possible, but rare, were
tenne -- ="tawny", orange
murrey -- deep purple (the color of a mulberry)
Anything represented in its natural color was described (blazoned) as "proper".

Delighted to learn my favorite colors are gules and murrey
aka : Scarlet and Purple.
On the 17th of March, tho, I shall be wearing vert!
wow

For those with interest in Chinese art there's a fascinating book on painting and the colors used, including their derivation in traditional painting called
"The Way of Chinese Painting - Its Ideas and Techniques With Selections From the Seventeenth Century 'Mustard Seed Garden Manual of Painting'" by Mai-Mai Sze.
My copy was purchased for me at Caves Book Co. 99 Chung Shan Rd N. (2) Taipai, China Tel 44754 in 1967. (Good luck!)
Another good one is : "Outlines of Chinese Symbolism & Art Motives" (illustrated) by C.A.S. Williams. Dover Publications, New York. Sub title : "An alphabetical compendium of antique legends and beliefs, as reflected in the manners and customs of the Chinese" I found the descriptions of the movements used in traditional dramas and the meanings of the gestures great fun and informative.
wow

>It took me a while to find out what beige meant originally - the color of undyed wool.

Now, c'mon Bill. If that was really what it meant, don't you thing it would be pronounced baaaaah-ge?

Maybe if it had been spelled as you suggest,Fiberbabe, it wouldn't have gotten so far away from the original color.My computer is said to be "beige" colored, but I never saw a sheep like that, and I saw a lot of sheep because my wife raised them

When i first had a house, and need to patch a wall-- i amazed my husband by being able to "re-mix" a batch of paint to match the paint on the wall-- which is hard, since paint usually dries to a different color.

That is quite a skill, and usually takes quite a bit of work to train the eye... often never to be reached.

I completely agree that the few names for colors oversimplifies. Though I also have to say that at least saying "green" gets people thinking in the right direction, when "chartreuse" could mean diddly to them. Sometimes any kind of communication is better than none at all.

Yes, avacado and mist green are different colors. I know. It was to illustrate that the business of selling has made understanding color that much more difficult. They don't care if it's right, so long as it's different than the last name they picked, and sounds interesting. Which is why I really resented the name changing in my art supplies. I don't consider "indian red" and "terra cotta" to be the same color, but they have decided it will be, for their product. I imagine "indian red" was changed for matters of sensitivity, but it should have been to a name that didn't already have a place elsewhere. And it means I can't change brands and expect to get the same color for the same name. Frustrating. (Even "pure" colors are on shaky ground, now that they are switching to synthetics to produce the color rather than the sometimes dangerous minerals that are traditional. You can't just buy supplies by their names any more...)

But anyway, I too love the diversity of colors. On decorating, I used to get comments from family (and some cheeky paint department employees) that they didn't think the colour I chose would work... but they do. My family now waits till after to make any comment.

Btw, my mother is a seamstress too.

Ali

Btw, my mother is a seamstress too.

So is mine (well, not by profession, but as a consuming hobby)

How nice to find a common thread. (Hehe... that's my first pun, ever...) NOTE TO SELF: Late nights, physical exhaustion, kahlua and AWAD do not play well together