I've always thought it's curious how english speakers handle names. We "import" Leon as a name-- which is just the french for lion-- but it very rare for english names to be animal names-- or other "natural words" - there are some Glen, Forrest, Rose, Daisy, Opal, but in many other languages, names are often just that, natural words.
Still most of us have names that have a meaning-- Helen is origanally from the greek (duh!), and meant (a source of ) Light-- Similar to the helio-- but the original word had a clear meaning of be light (like the sun) but definately not the sun... ( an other source said it was definately from the word for "light- house" )
Some names are made up-- Wendy was never a name before the "peter pan " books-- and others (and a AWAD "name" made me think of this) are so old, that they are found on heirogliphics from ancient egypt!
So i have two questions: why don't we use natural words as names (Why am I helen and not "lighthouse"?) and what natural words (like glen -- have become common names in your culture?)
I notice plants, flowers and gems are much more common as names than animals or geographic features-- Glen is a real exceptions.. there are many more Ruby's, Opal's and Beryl's than Glens -- and i don't know any River's (except the actor River Pheonix) or Stream's or Hill's (except last names). --We have our Rhu here-- and i know, Rose's, Daisy's, Violet's, Iris's, Lily's, but who knows a Carrot-- or Peach's, or Rhubarb? why aren't these names of people?
And what is the source of your real (or AWAD) name? What does it mean? Why did you choose it? and would you consider it a name for you self, your children, or your grandchildren?
And what is the source of your real (or AWAD) name? What does it mean? Why did you choose it? and would you consider it a name for you self, your children, or your grandchildren?Per your
private request and the note above from your posting...
YES, I do know the origin of my name... though, technically, my name is Suzanne - named for one grandmother (Susie) and one greatgrandmother (Susannah)... having lived in Israel for the better part of the past 20 years, I'm used to the name Shoshannah now and really love it!
By the way, the name 'Susannah' also appears in the New Testament (Gospel of Luke chapter 8, verse 3)... but the most interesting story about the name I heard from the cab driver who drove me to Kennedy Airport waaaaaay back in 1979 when I was on my way to Israel for the very first time... he asked where I was going and I said Israel (he got so excited, he almost ran off the road...) and then asked my name, so I said "Shoshannah" and again, he almost ran off the road. Then, his voice got very quiet and sweet sounding and he asked if I knew what the name meant. I said, well, I think it's a 'rose'. "Oh yes," he replied, "but more than that. It's in a special old Jewish prayer which goes something like this: the Shoshannah is the most beautiful flower in the all the earth, the one that stands out from among the thorns and to which, all other flowers are drawn." You can imagine how that made ME feel!
When I decided to register for this board (the ONLY one I'm on currently), I tried to think of the name I wanted to use and since more and more, as I live here in Jerusalem, Israel, I FEEL like my name is Shoshannah (instead of Suzanne), that seemed the most likely choice.
In fact, my family name is Pomeranz... which has no real origin, except that it does sound a bit like the area my father's family was from (in the old old country - the Austro-Hungarian Empire... and as far as we know my greatgrandfather did NOT have a family name - the family lived in a
little shtetel like "Anatevka" in "Fiddler on the Roof" and my greatgrandfather was known as "Natan of Pokrovicz"), but it also comes from the word "pomegranate" and so I'm thinking about just changing the whole thing from Suzanne Pomeranz (in English) to the Hebrew equivalent which would be "Shoshannah Rimon"... whaddayathink?
Shoshannah/Suzanne...
oh, and just like I am NOT a Sue or Susie or Susan, I am also NOT a Shosh or Shoshi...
(
okay? s'all right
)
of troy... My name des are initials for "dark eyed sentimentalist". In the 1940's someone gave me a dictionary inscribed "to our DES" with a drawing of a martini glass! This was to "read" on the train I was boarding in Philadelphia going back to Indianapolis! I guess I am still a sentimentalist! Hope others submit info about their names on this board!
There are few "Suthrin" women around named Pansy! I just love AnnaStropic spelling of Southern! It is pretty accurate! Thanks Anna...
In reply to:
oh, and just like I am NOT a Sue or Susie or Susan, I am also NOT a Shosh or Shoshi...(okay?s'all right)
I know exactly what you mean. Max's alter ego has a name of only two syllables, but he still hates having it contracted. 
Names interest me very much, because there are stories behind so many of them. The little genealogy book I mentioned told me that my last name was originally "Hunte" meaning the same thing as "Hunter" but in a dialect spoken only in a small area close to north end of Channel, I forget its name. I wish I had known that when wiseguys asked me if it was originally "dog" in German.
Apparently it is possible to guess your age from your name.
Helen mentioned names from the natural world. In the UK if your name is Iris or Rose you are likely to be older than someone called Heather or Fern.
There are few young Ednas, Winnifreds, Ediths, Walters or Fredericks. Younger names seem to come in waves. We had a spell of Sharons and Kevins followed by Justins and Jasons followed by Kylies and Joshes but have now reverted to Charlies, Williams, Charlottes and Emmas.
Compared to the USA, we use relatively few names, apparently a huge percentage of boys are given names that are in the top ten for the year, a smaller proportion (but still a significant number) of girls are given names in the current top ten. Hence the ability to make a reasonable guess at the age of a person, given their name.
Celebs have had their own rules since Zowie Bowie, Fifi Trixibelle (Bob Geldof & Paula Yate's eldest) and now the Spice Girl offspring Brooklyn (good thing he wasn't conceived in Scunthorpe) and Phoenix, perhaps the UK equivalent of Chelsea.
The same 'top ten' phenomena happens here. My son was baptized at the same time as four little girls (they baptize in batches here). All four girls were named Isabelle. When the priest came to Jonathan he said "and I baptize thee Isab.." A lucky, and quick "no, no Jonathan, he's the boy Jonathan" from me saved him from being called Isabelle. I guess it didn’t help that babies all get baptized in these white dresses – boys and girls.
And what is the source of your real (or AWAD) name? What does it mean? Why did you choose it? and would you consider it a name for you self, your children, or your grandchildren? My proper name is Alida, which means "noble" in Dutch, "archaic" in German, and "winged" in Latin. It was also the name of an ancient city. I didn't like it as a kid, partially because no one could get it right when saying it, or spelling it. I've gotten Aleta, Alita, Allida, Alisha... and so on. I like it these days, since it is different, even if the mistakes haven't stopped happening.
I wish I knew how people got from a meaning to a name, when the spelling isn't even a connection. If anyone knows, I'd like to know too.
As for my account name, I found it a couple years ago when browsing Brewers Phrase and Fable for the hell of it. Conveniently, I'd just typed it out for someone else:
The Seian Horse - A possession which invariably brought ill luck with it. Hence the Latin proverb "ille home habet equum Seianum". Cneius Seius had an Argive horse of the breed Diomed, of a bay colour and unsurpassing beauty, but it was fatal to its possessor. Seius was put to death by Mark Anthony. Its next owner, Cornelius Dolabella, who bought it for 100,000 sesterces, was killed in Syria during the civil wars. Caius Cassius, who next took possession of it, perished after the battle of Philippi by the very sword which stabbed Caesar. Antony had the horse next, and after the battle of Actium slew himself. Like the gold of Tolosa and Hermione's necklace, the Seian or Sejan horse was a fatal possession.
The people were unlucky, but I'd say the horse was about as lucky as they get.
Ali
I've always been fascinated by the name Rose of Sharon (given to a character in John Steinbeck's The grapes of wrath). Is this a common name in the US? And are there any other phrases used for names (excepting hyphenated names, of course)?
In German you can be 'of' someone, so a man I know is, for example called..
Florian von Bechtolsheim
It is offen seen as an honour to have such a name, as it signifies noble heritage [wink at Alida]
von Betts
Rose of Sharon is not common or popular-- at least not in the northest-- but it is also not so rare as to have struck me when i read the book, as an odd name. (where as the name Jode's was odd. i knew Jodie's-- abut had never heard of a boy's/mans name of Jode (Jude, yes, but not Jode)
But I want to thank everyone for sharing-- and to think about the other half of the question... natural words as names..
And Thank, Jo-- we have "runs" of names here too-- Some one i know has a young daughter named Ester-- not a common name anymore, and she get on mailing list for old age stuff, since most Ester are older. I am, by lists, thought to be older, since Helen had a 1 year run in the top 25 names in the US-- 4 years before I was born.
My daughter Emily used to complain as a child that commercial "personalize" products (Micky Mouse toothbrushes, etc) never had her name. They do now, about 10 years after she was born "emily" made it up to the top 10 list of US girls name. (i remind her when she is old, every one will think her ten years younger..)
There is a popular flowering bush also called Rose of Sharon. It is of the hybiscus family, grows large (5-6 feet) and bears large blooms from mid-summer to the beginning of fall. I have several in my yard which I regard with great affection.
The name no doubt was adopted from the biblical Rose of Sharon, which is believed to have been a tulip, narcissus or meadow saffron.
One can imagine how I felt being e-so close, yet never really ... Have made up for it since... My niece worked in a gift shop at Disney World and had a coffee cup customized, it's all I need now. Being different and specifically not Irish (not that there was anything wrong with that) was the only explanation for the divergence from Kevin that I enjoy.
Check my bio for my AWAD handle story.
It seems that occupations and objects seem to be considerably more pevelant in last name than in first name use in English, possibly following the adjective-noun form... is this different in Languages that don't follow that order?
For my AWAD name : turn wow up side down and secondarily it means Wise Old Woman.My friends ranging in age from teens to mid-80s bestowed it.
My "real" name is Ann ... no "e" so not Annie, please!
It's a name that turns up in every generation which proved there are intelligent parents in every generation.
It's also a name that ages well.
I'm sure Sparteye agrees!
Ann means gracefull or queenly according to name books.
Also, it is handy to be named for Saint Ann ... prayer requests directed through her are rarely refused by her Grandson.
wow
Anyone with a non-standard-ly spelled name (like Keven) can relate to having people screw up their name spelling. My name is spelled Cristina (NO H!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!) because my father is Italian and that's the way it's spelled there - no superfluous letters to confuse things. My maiden name (what an old-fashioned sounding word - I never felt like I was a "maiden") is Spanu, yes, it ends in a U, nothing follows the U, and no, it's not a mistake, and yes, I do know how to spell my own name, thank you very much. My husband's name is Dag (not short for anything, not even Dagwood, all you funny people), named for Dag Hammarskjold (sp?), and between the two of us we can rant at length about name misspellings and other "improvements" imposed by other people. He was Doug for a period in high school, poor guy.
It's funny because I just discussed this with my Turkish friend this week, as we were discovering that there are inter-generationally common mens' names in English (William, Michael, James, John, David, Daniel) but not as many extremely common womens' names (I did come up with Ann and Sarah and Elizabeth, but even those aren't worn by every third person - like the mens' names). I'd been asking her about common Turkish names - which of course come from the Q'uran, not the Bible!
As for natural words - flowers are the best I can think of - as already mentioned. I once had a friend named Laurel with a mother named Iris. Not kidding! And my husband's name is even unusual in Norwegian, because it means "day".
The AWAD name I'll leave for another post. It
is derived from my real name...aside from the people I've told, can anyone make the connection? It's not simple or obvious, and there are two intermediate steps.
names with meanings
While wer're on names and meanings, which doesn't usually extend to surnames as much as Christian or given names, I have to get in my father's favorite joke, which is a Pennsylvania Dutch joke.
A Berks County (Pennsylvania] Dutchman went in to Reading to look for a job in the silk mill. The foreman asked him, "Are you a weaver?" He replied, "Ach, no, my name is Biemesduerfer. Vy, did you t'ink you knowed me?"
A couple of branches back on my family tree is an uncle with the unfortunate name of "Forrest Stump."
He was Doug for a period in high school, poor guy.Ouch. I can sympathize. When I was in high school, they generally managed to get my first name right, at least for the paperwork. I'd long been resigned to the mutilations possible for "Alida". But oddly, sometimes they couldn't seem to manage to get my last name right, even when reading it from a correct paper. Saxon. "Saxon, as in Anglo-Saxon. You know, history of Britain, Saxons?" (I usually manage to say that in a way that isn't so snippy.) They spelled it Saxton, which baffled me, when they managed to make it through Alida. I got a little scholarship prize with plaque made out to Alida Saxton. I felt so loved. I might have kept it like that for the laughs, if it had been a prize for History.
If memory serves me, it was for my grades in English...
Ali
My last name (Kinraid) has caused me unofficial and official grief all my life - except once when it was a positive benefit.
You have Kincaid, Scottish and quite common. You have Kinnaird, also Scottish. Both are also quite common in Ireland for historical reasons which anyone who wishes can find out by LIU.
So I've been Kincaid, Kinnaird, Kinaid, Kinkaid, Kirland, Kirkland, and half a dozen more than I've long since forgotten.
Family legend has it that the name is Manx in origin, presumably partially left behind by various invading forces with murderous intent, like Tottenham fans after a match. I've never been able to find any corroborating evidence. I'd say it was destroyed long ago by the Spurs fans surrogates.
Mostly it's caused me inconvenience, like my first passport having my name incorrectly spelled, like hesitation at school when names were being read out. My nickname was "Kinky", not because of what I did (I wish!) but because of That Name.
My name has been crossed out, dropped off, passed over, laughed at or ignored by various official and non-government bodies. The one time it worked in my favour was the 18-year-old ballot for national service. The army (bless its ignorant, murderous heart) dropped my name out of the ballot because they didn't believe it was real. Even then, they screwed up because two days before my eighteenth birthday they dropped national service altogether! They could have at least waited until
after that semi-auspicious event!
I'm used to the name Shoshannah now and really love it!... Shoshannah is the most
beautiful flower in the all the earth, I've long liked both the Hebrew and the English rendering of your name! Shakespeare, In Romeo and Juliet, mentioned it in Romeo's line, "What's in a name? A rose by any other name would smell as sweet." But another name would not sound as sweet! And Saint-Exupery, in The Little Prince, made one special rose the most important in the universe.
As for my own name, Geoffrey (from French Godefois, from German Godfrey; God's peace) Sanders (akin to Alexander), I can say that Americans have made mincemeat out of it! They are convinced that my name is not pronounced the same as "Jeffrey," and call me many things, some of which I dare not repeat! The funniest was "Geeky." That was twenty years ago; today, geeks are in vogue, so maybe that malaprop was just ahead of its time.
Even Sanders gets a "u" stuck in it half the time. As G.B. Shaw said, our two countries are separated by a common language!
Actually, the "Rose of Sharon" is a lily - although I'm not totally sure which variety, but a LILY nonetheless, not a tulip or otherwise. Also - the implication is that there is only ONE such flower and it cannot be found anywhere else in the world except on the Plain of Sharon (which is not ON the coast but a bit inland, near the Mediterranean Coast, just north of the greater Tel Aviv area; look on a map to find Netanya and then look north to Hadera - it's basically inbetween those cities).
Shoshannah
(whose name comes from that expression (in Hebrew), haShoshannah shel Sharon... or in English, as you said above) - see my previous posting about my name!
As some of you will know (and for those who don't zip over to
http://wordsmith.org/board/showflat.pl?Cat=&Board=words&Number=17010 ) my identity is being kept a secret from the outside world.
It has often been pointed out, particularly by librarians, that apart from one additional letter the name I go under in other contexts is the same as that of a well-known 20th century British poet and novelist. Why they think somebody who haunts their shelves as much as I do would be ignorant of this fact is a mystery.
Bingley
In reply to:
paulb
I've always been fascinated by the name Rose of Sharon (given to a character in John Steinbeck's The grapes of wrath).
One last word about Rose of Sharon - the origin of the expression is from the Bible - Song of Songs (also called the Song of Solomon) chapter 2, verse 1: "I am the rose of Sharon, the lily of the valleys." From this verse, Christians later referred to Jesus (whose real name, by the way, was Yeshua or even Yehoshua...) as "the Rose of Sharon"...
Shoshannah
...and if anyone would like a tour of the Plain of Sharon to see the Rose of Sharon, come on over and I'll give you a 'special tour' at a 'special 'price'!
One of the people I used to work with had the surname Ktori.
He claimed that he had examples of over 40 mis-spellings of his name!
Many of us who were here last year posted the meanings of our "handles" here, if y'all're interested:
http://wordsmith.org/board/showflat.pl?Cat=&Board=miscellany&Number=499
And why oh why does the second page of that thread take us to some other thread on "Hand Gestures"? Should we understand some indirect hint to "mind our own business"?
I have a Spanish name that seems to confuse some English-speakers incredibly, but I am not usually too bothered, especially if I can see that someone is making an effort to at least approximate the correct pronunciation. However, one of my partner's best friends has for the longest time seemed completely unable to even remember my name, let alone pronounce it. Finally, he decided to call me Marianna, a completely different name, but one that he could for some reason associate with me. It's been a standing joke until just recently when we finally managed to drum the correct one into his head. But it has remained as my "alternative" name, which I use in AWAD.
Spanish people have a name and two surnames. We retain our father's first surname and our mother's first surname in order to make up our full name. This is possible because women do not change their name when they get married, so everybody's name is the same all throughout their life.
But, to the point about natural names, I knew a girl at university whose father's first surname was exactly the same as her mother's first surname: "Luna", meaning "Moon". For whatever reason, they thought it would be a good idea to give their daughter the first name "Luna", to go with it all. So there she was on the class list: Luna Luna Luna.
Even Yankee names can become jokes. The daughter of the Sunday School superintendent was named Helen Hunt. A newcomer was a bit upset when she mislaid a pair of gloves and was told to go to Helen Hunt for them.
Also in my family we do not name boys Mike.
>And why oh why does the second page of that thread
Yes, we've had some discussion about that kind of thing. Once a thread sinks down the list it becomes hard to view in flat mode. Going past the first page takes you to strange and sometimes interesting places. You either have to view it in threaded mode, a post at a time or add a post and bring it to the top again. I'm sure someone worked out an explanation but I can't remember it.
First of all, just so as not to lose the thread topic: First name - Ravi - name of sun god in Sanskrit. Middle name - Shankar (one of Lord Shiva's names, and one my grandfather had) - contracted to the easy-to-pronounce 'shanks' for the internet. Phew - got that hoary old one out of the way. Now...
Shoshannah,
You speak of 'Yeshua' and 'Yehoshua'. In which scripts were these names written? My understanding is that Hebrew orthography includes no vowel sounds, hence the tetragrammaton (sp?) YHWH that is conventionally (but not necessarily authoritatively) rendered as Yahweh, or even 'corrupted' to Jehovah. What authority do we have for the pronunciation of any Hebrew vowels. Or has Yeshua ben Israel come to us from koine Greek or Latin?
Interested in London
the sunshine (from the 'sun god' Ravi) warrior ('Nair' - lordly caste of Kerala, and notionally, fighting people.)
I've been waiting for a few quiet moments to tap this out... maybe this is my opportunity! I can relate to Bean's husband - my first name is Dagny (one of the female counterparts to the man's name, Dag). As Bean mentions, Dag means "day" in Norwegian. The "ny" suffix is actually an adjective, meaning "new". As this is a traditional Norsk name, I'm imagining that Scandinavia got a head start on the hippy movement.
My last name is Haug - "hill" in Norwegian. The northern European convention (and I'm speaking broadly here...) is the whole "-son" and "-datter" suffix thing. If your father's name is Peter and you caught the y chromosome ferry, voila! Your last name is "Peterson" ("Petersen", "Pederson", "Pedersen", ad infinitum...)! Well, on that day in 1901 that my dad's parents went through US Immigration, the official felt he had seen his quota of Pedersons. "Pick a new name. Now." So my grandparents chose Haug at random, primarily because the farm they had just left in Norway was located on a hill.
And here I am.
My middle name is Pernille, but I have no idea on the origin of that one, other than it was my dad's sister's name and my mom liked the traditional sound of it. And you've got to admit, it would blow the euphony to smithereens if they had chosen to name me something like "Dagny Sue Haug".
When I was growing up, I wasn't really fond of my name, predominantly due to the mispronunciations. For a brief period in the 80s, my junior high and high school classmates got a real kick out of handing me flatware... so that I was "Dagny with a spoon" (let me know if that requires further explanation). I would imagine I was around 15 or 16 when it occurred to me that I had a unique enough name that I was almost
guaranteed tabula rasa when it comes to making a first impression... I've observed a social tendency to make certain assumptions about people if you already know someone by the same name. (This seems to be less an issue for people of extraordinarily common names like John, Mike, Tom...) To wit: I have a friend by the name of Ian. There aren't a whole lot of Ians running around, but it's not inconceivable that one might run across another one. And when I do, there are aspects of Ian's personality that I automatically assign to the newfound Ian, be they right or wrong. But with a name like Dagny, I rarely meet anyone who has ever heard the name before, much less having known another Dagny. Of course, if my new friend has read any Ayn Rand, I'm pretty much screwed...
that Dagny is
not very nice!
But I've found that it works to my advantage the majority of the time. And certain friends were keeping me apprised of my performance on the Norwegian women's Olympic soccer team last summer!
So now I'm grateful for the uniqueness of my name. Anyone else have similar observations regarding the potential baggage carried by a familiar name?
Certainly the unusual name phenomenon, when one gets out of high school where all the pressure is to be a Lisa, Jennifer, or Greg, comes in handy. This happened with my husband a few days ago when he called a store which he used to visit all the time in Winnipeg. No need for "This is Dag Tollefsen" for him. Just "This is Dag" and the guy immediately remembered him.
However, people are not really used to unusual names in Newfoundland yet (the land of Heathers, Pauls, Jacks, Amys) so we often wonder if the reason he never hears back on some job applications is because the person is afraid of trying to pronounce his name. My Turkish friend with the Turkish huband with the Turkish name seems to be suffering from the same problem, too.
And also funny - just before this name thread came up, my husband and I were talking (in an abstract way) about potential baby names. Everything he said, I hated because I had known some terrible person by that name, and everything I said, he disliked for the same reason. I wonder if there are any names out there that
don't carry emotional baggage for us? The only names I ended up liking were those of my very good friends! I'd better not get too chummy with the Board people or I'll end up with children named Sparteye, Fiberbabe, wwh, and Bobyoungbalt!!!!!
My first name is so common and so pronouncible, that there has never been any problem with it. But Young (spelled and pronounced Jung until the 1880's) is something else again. An easy name for English speakers, but not to others. When my wife and I lived in Italy, the Italians could not pronounce it. Eventually she had to get used to being addressed as Signora Djungay or something like it. What's even stranger is that Orientals seem to hear it as a Chinese word, or they think it's John. Often, after being asked what my name is, I get the reply, OK John, ....
And at least 5 or 6 times in the last 10 years someone has asked me or my wife if we are Chinese.
>
...Just "This is Dag"...Yeah, I can usually get away with that too! Although I have the same problem with people's reticence to attempt pronunciation ~ and more than once, people assumed I was a man because they couldn't envision a "Dagny" as anything else. Come to think of it, I came very close to being elected a
prince of my high school winter court! Word travels fast when your gender has been unintentionally transmogrified. (Hi Max!)
Most of my friends call me Dave. I've heard it's short for David -- confirm anyone
Carpe whatever
Welcome back Dave. As to what Dave is a contraction of, I would hesitate to be so presumptuous as to hazard a guess. I did onece know someone called "Mike" who was forever telling people that the name on his birth certuificate was Mike, not Michael. So, for all I know, your Dave might not be short for anything at all.
One funny thing about first names. At least by the time you can walk, you have a nickname. Why not start with the nickname?Only when my mother was angry with me did she use my given name.
I have never heard Dave except as a nickname for David.
Why not start with the nickname?
My younger sister was born when I was about 17 months old, before I began talking. When I did start, I had trouble with her name, mispronouncing it billabong. That nickname didn't really stick, except for jocular usage, but, thirty years on, she lives in the land of billabongs.
Alas, Bill, i have never had a nick name! Helen doesn't lend its self to one, and my mother hated nick names-- she had been "nick named" as child, and to this day, many people don't know her given name.. (no relation to her nick name).
So if you called on the phone and asked for Dee instead of Deidre-- and my mother answered-- you would get told that "there is no one named Dee at this household" The same held true for other siblings... no nick names.
I followed the same rule-- my son is Benjamin, not ben, or benny, or (ugh!) benji. but he has an alter ego name from his middle name.. Elijah-- and can be found many places on the web as "eli the bearded"-- but since he took down his web page, his name gererates few hits.
my ex never used a pet name or nick name for me-- so i remain plain old helen..
But still burning topless towers from the thousand launched ships,so anything but plain.
"One funny thing about first names. At least by the time you can walk, you have a nickname. Why not start with the nickname?"
I come from a family full of people who so detested their given names that they changed them fairly early in life. I subscribe to the idea that we ought to give our babies temporary names but permit the children to select their own names when they reach age twelve.
shanks pondered
First name - Ravi - name of sun god in Sanskrit. Middle name - Shankar (one of Lord Shiva's names, and one my grandfather had{And, of course, you are the world famous sitar player!
My wife's cousin, a good friend of ours, was named Michael when he was born, but he detested it so much as he got older than he began to call himself "Denny". When he was twenty he had his name legally changed to Denny, and Denny he is. Have any of your family gone to those lengths, Sparteye?
Commercial products with translated names are often made up to sound Hawaiian by changing a letter or two and this sometimes results in a name with a ridiculous meaning.
Real Hawaiian names have meaning. The name given me by my Hawaiian friends has nothing to do with a translation of Ann.
Here are a few equivalent Hawaiian names :
Helen - Ke'Alohi - bright, splendid, glittering one
Jackie- Ukali - one who comes after or follows (Anu ?)
Dorothy- Makana Lani - heavenly gift
Jo - Lokomaka'i - good, generous, gracious, kind
David - Hiwahiwa - precious and beloved
Maryann - Maika'i Hoku O Ke Kai -beautiful lady of the sea
Belle or Bella - 0 Ka Nani the beautiful one
Paul- Mea Li'i -the little one also the Chiefly one
Keven (Kevin) Nohea -handsome or Nohea I Ka Hanau -handsome by birth
Ann -Maka'i - excellent, beautiful righteous, well-being
Cristina - Mea La'a - consecrated or holy one
Robert - Ihi Lani - heavenly splendor
Geoff - Ho'omaluluhia - cause or give peace
William - Au Kanai'i -strong warior,litterally strong current
Max - Mea Nui - the greatest
(no kidding, that's the meaning)
Shoshanna - (Susan) Pa'inui -lily & Hannah - Maika'i- goodness & grace -
Combining the two- lily of goodness and grace
Pa'inui Maka'i
Send Private for pronunciation and PLEASE include the name to save me looking up again.
Sorry Ravi and Dagny -- but give me meanings and I may be able come up with names.
If I left anyone out, inquire by Private?
Thank you
Enjoy
wow
P.S. Bow to Eileen Root's "Hawaiian Names-English Names"
and to the Pukui-Elbert Hawaiian Dictionary - the definitive work.
Or do like kings and Catholics do-- give them lots of names so they can chose one...
officially i am helen mary bernadette patricia-- but for all practial puposes i am helen, and never use a middle inital (which one?)-- My sister geraldine didn't get as many names, geraldine was thought by my mother to be such a big name, that she didn't need as many names!
In reply to:
geraldine was thought by my mother to be such a big name, that she didn't need as many names!
I've already give info on my Hebrew name, but my 'given' name is Suzanne (named for my grandmother Susie and my great-grandmother Susannah)... like poor Geraldine, sister to Helen of the many names following... my father thought Suzanne was enough, and so I don't have a middle name. Well, at least that's what I thought until I was 12 and my sisters (twins) were born - each of them has only one name as well, though their names are short - Sarah and Laurie.
So, why didn't we get middle names? Because our dear father thought that women should only be given one name at birth as, in his mind, since they would take their husbands' names at marriage, the 'maiden' name would become the instant middle name! That has worked for my two sisters, but since I never married, I still have only what I was given at birth! And at this stage in my life, even if I was to marry, I probably would just keep it this way - it'd really be too much trouble for my friends to learn a new name for me now!
Shoshannah (Suzanne)
In reply to:
but for all practial puposes i am helen, and never use a middle inital (which one?)
Now this is something that has always annoyed me. Where does this insistance of US'ns that one can only have one middle initial come from? I have two middle names outside the Board and I don't see why I should give up either.
Bingley
Oh, wow, thank you! This is so neat!
Helen - Ke'Alohi - bright, splendid, glittering one
DefinitelyJackie- Ukali - one who comes after or follows (Anu ?)
Apt. One book said I'm "the supplanter"--very apt--
I'm what my parents got in the place of the kid they really
wanted.Dorothy- Makana Lani - heavenly gift
Her gifts to this board have been "leaven-ly".Jo - Lokomaka'i - good, generous, gracious, kind
This I can vouch for! Thanks again for the loan of the jumpers, Dearest.David - Hiwahiwa - precious and beloved
More than he knows.Maryann - Maika'i Hoku O Ke Kai -beautiful lady of the sea
Can't argue with that.Belle or Bella - 0 Ka Nani the beautiful one
Most definitely.Paul- Mea Li'i -the little one also the Chiefly one
Chief of good cheer and good will!Keven (Kevin) Nohea -handsome or Nohea I Ka Hanau -handsome by birth
Keven is a beautiful person indeed.Ann -Maka'i - excellent, beautiful righteous, well-being
All spot on, though maybe the last post-winter.Cristina - Mea La'a - consecrated or holy one
Sorry--not qualified to assess this.Robert - Ihi Lani - heavenly splendor
Vast understatement, this.Geoff - Ho'omaluluhia - cause or give peace
Not all the time. Rolling on the floor with
laughter is not peaceful.William - Au Kanai'i -strong warior,litterally strong current
He is indeed strong.Max - Mea Nui - the greatest
(no kidding, that's the meaning)
Could NOT be more perfect.Shoshanna - (Susan) Pa'inui -lily & Hannah - Maika'i- goodness & grace -
Combining the two- lily of goodness and grace
Pa'inui Maka'i
Seems that way to me.
Reading this thread, and being delighted to discover that Hawaiian expresses my essence so aptly
gave me the idea for a wonderfully obscure challenge. I suspect that most here do not not know my "real" name. The Maori word "kaitiaki" expresses a concept very similar to that of my given name. If you can find out what kaitiaki means, you will probably be able to have an intelligent guess at what my real name is. I solemnly peomise to spin a roomful of the Emperor's new clothes for all who get it right. Post your guesses in private or publicly, as you wish.
And, of course, you are the world famous sitar player! Naah. Too much like hard work. Though on the other hand, like Chaplin, the old fellers been sprogging to a ripe age. Hmmm... kind of reminds of the lines from Paul Simon's "Duncan" (if I can remember them without Mondegreening too much):
"Oooh what a night
Oh what a garden of delight
Even now that sweet memory lingers
I was playing my guitar
Lying underneath the stars
Just thanking the lord for my fingers
For my fingers..."
Makes you think, dunnit?
The first names actually, are not shared with the sitarist since for him Shankar is his surname, whwereas it is merely my middle name. Coincidentally, though, a Ravi Shankar Shastri, if I'm not mistaken, was the Indian player of the '80s who equalled Sobers' 6 sixes in an over and still has the record for the fastest first-class double century, if I'm not mistaken.
But, no, there are no famous Ravi Nairs or Ravi Shankar Nairs, as far as I am aware. And my time is long past...
cheer
the sunshine warrior
ps. For anyone who has been to Max's little treasure-cave (idrive thingy or driveway thingy), the picture of me is vastly incomplete - there should be a nearly empty pint-glass of beer (alas weak Chicago stuff) in my hand (I'd had it for five seconds already - of course it would be nearly empty) and a cigarette in my other hand. And yes, that is a missing canine tooth: I had to give up my career as an haematophage after that incident - that'll learn me never to suck a rhino again!
Ravi = the Sun (or the name of the Sun)
cheer
the sunshine warrior
Ravi = the Sun (or the name of the Sun)
-----------------------------------------
Sun - La
Kahikole = early morning
Kahiku = before noon
Perhaps Kala (long "a"s) for The Sun
so we must all, therefore : lua kalai lani (circle around the sun)
wow
Excellent.
Kala (long 'a's) in Hindi means 'balck' - and I guess I'm darker than most here - the black sun?
cheer
the sunshine warrior (kala kala?)
wow,
those are really cool. Got one for Chopped Liver?
MaxQ>
kaitiakiWell, Max, I do 'know' or think I know, that the Tiaki is that little Maori idol??? So, perhaps the word 'kaitiaki' has something to do with that? Thought I'd start there.
Just went quickly to Atomica.com and found out that Kaitiaki can be translated to:
guardianship, caretaker or master though, after that I'm stumped! Though if you are the 'master' and 'perfect'... hummmm - must get to know you better!
Just guessing... but at least trying!
Shoshannah
the Tiaki is that little Maori idol???I wonder if you were thinking of the
hei tiki, normally abbreviated to
tiki, a ubiquitous Maori fertility image. Other than a pot-belly, the tiki and I have little in common. Now that you know what "kaitiaki" means, it should not be to hard to find a relatively common English name derived from a word roughly synonymous with caretaker. My first name is also a very common surname, but spell it wrong, and you'll have to flee to one of the cities of refuge!
Why on earth is the name Robert shortened to Bob. This is true of English and French. I would understand Rob, but Bob??
Dear belMarduk: Nicknames seldom make sense. Why is Senator Edward Kennedy called Teddy? Why am I called Bill? Sometimes nicknames are coined by the small children who cannot pronounce the name right, and the family rather than mocking their efforts, adopts them. I saw a cartoon in New Yorker recently showing one young executive asking another, "What does it mean when the boss does not use your nickname?" Haven't got the magazine to check the quote, but it's fairly close. In many settings, if you don't have a nickname,you're underprivileged.
AnnaStrophic Hawaiian names... Got one for Chopped Liver?
Bad day, Elizabeth? Chopped liver my er... ummm... goodness!
Take heart and listen to this:
Elizabeth is from the Hebrew and means oath of God.
In Hawaiian Ho'ohiki A Ke Akua is the literal translation.
Pg.91 Eileen M. Root Hawaiian Names English Names.
Why Harry, Hal, and Hank for Henry? Or Chuck and Chip for Charles? Or Gus for Constantine? Or Sandy for Alexander? Or Stosh for Stanislaus?
Bob is old, of course. In A Christmas Carol, Dickens notes that Bob Cratchit received 15 copies of himself per week -- 15 'bob' or shillings = $3.75 at the time, or in today's value about $100 (for 5-1/2 days work 9:00 a.m. to 7:00 p.m. mon-fri, 9 to 1 pm Sat.)
Now that I come to think of it, Bob Cratchit didn't do so bad. In my first job after getting out of the Army in 1965 about 130 years after Cratchit's time, I got $100 per week for 5-1/2 days except I only had to work to 5:00 pm mon-Fri. But then, I only had 1 child and my wife worked.
Well maybe I noticed the Bob thing because my brother is named Robert. But there has got to be some sort of thing in people's brains that make this happen.
Is it easier for your brain to think Bob in instead of Rob? I know it is slightly easier to say. As for all those other example, colour me clueless. I always wondered why they called Charlie Brown "Chuck".
It's an ex-press-ion, wow
.... gee, you make me all verklempt and agita.
Ho'ohiki A Ke Akua Thank you for my name in Hawai'ian. I spent a good 20 minutes (i.e. cyber-eternity) trying to find an on-line Hawai'ian translation for 'thank you' but the best I could do was "Thanksgiving" and "thank." Didn't bother to copy them down. I'm sure tsuwm will find it for me.
Now, what's the nickname?
trying to find an on-line Hawai'ian translation for 'thank you'
Easy-peasy
Mahalo.
If you want to get really fancy :
I am grateful for you help = ho'omaika'i i au i kokua mai
(Pukui Elbert Dictionary)
but nobody expects you to know that unless you're a Native speaker!
Mahalo and kokua are seen and used a lot even by haoles.
Mahalo is a general thank you. One lady, visiting Hawaii kept seeing the word Mahalo on the refuse containers in McD and Burger King et.al. She thought it meant rubbish until a kind soul told her the real meaning.
You might see a sign in a bookstore asking you to return books to correct shelves ending with :"Thank you for your kokua" (co-operation.)
That's it, I'm pau (finished)
wow
Ho'ohiki A Ke Akua (Elizabeth) Now, what's the nickname?
That would be different, given by chums or family. Not necessarily a contraction of true name.
wow
Elizabeth is from the Hebrew and means oath of God.
In Hawaiian Ho'ohiki A Ke Akua is the literal translation.
Thanks for that, wow. The similarity between "Akua" in Hawaiian and "Atua" in Maori, led me to figure out the Maori version. As a phrase Te Whakaari o Te Atua, and as a name, probably Whakaariatua. I shall definitely remember this, at least as a suggestion for friends.
Just had a flash (!) : Native Hawaiians, fluent in the language reading my poor efforts.
I'll never know. They're far too kind and polite.
One reason for the notes about books I've used.
wow
Now that you mention it, wow, I found both in the on-line Pukui-Elbert dictionary but they came up as translations for "thank" (the search function does not work for expressions such as "thank you," and when I tried "thanks" it gave me the word for Thanksgiving) ... I wasn't sure if they merely translated the verb or what. So since the translation wasn't good, I decided not to use either. But now I know. So, mahalo!
trying to find an on-line Hawai'ian translation for 'thank you'
Easy-peasy
Mahalo.
That is a very hard phrase to translate into Maori, as there is no specific phrase meaning "thank you." The phrase most commonly used is "kia ora", which is also both a greeting and a farewell. The formal expression of thanks, most often used in religious or ceremonial situations, is, "nga whakawhetai kia koe." Given the similarities between the Polynesian languages, striking differences like this fascinate me.
kia ora mai
now I know. So, mahalo!
a' 'oli pilikia
(No trouble, no problem)
or for haole : no pilikia!
wow
Well, this forum seems to have digressed a bit, but I really enjoyed reading through it so I thought I'd share some of my name stories.
My full name is Katharina Gabriele Gerda Petersen, but I usually sign as Katharina G. Petersen (why use two middle initials if they are the same . . .) The name is German, but as I live in England my last name is never spelt correctly - I will always get PetersOn. People have previously not been able to find me on computer lists (e.g. at the travel agents) because they had misspelt my surname. I try telling them that it's "Petersen, with all e's", but that usually confuses them to the extent that they make me spell it all out.
As for my first name, I have given up on it - I am just Kat to everyone. (And I'm sure that most of the people I have met since I've begun introducing myself as Kat will not know what my real name is.) If I have to use Katharina, people are always confused by the "th", as it is just pronounced as "t" (that's because it is German). I tend to get Katerina, which I really dislike (even worse is Katrina).
I very very rarely use Gerda, although I use Gabriele. Both of these names are my respective grandmothers', which is something of a tradition in our family. One of them was unfortunate to end up with the name Gerda Ida Minna Krumm, where all first names are considered very old-fashioned, and the surname translates into English as "bent".
My father's first name is Nikolaus, which I am told results from my grandfather originally wanting to call him Klaus but this was not considered a proper name in such a posh family, so they figured they could call him that after he was born. It never happened - he has always been Niko, and never Klaus.
My aunt, from the same side of the family, is Barbara (which is also my sister's middle name, her first name is Johanna after my uncle Johannes (at least I got one original name!)). She called herself Baba for lack of pronounciation, until my father returned from his first Latin class at school and disallowed any words that did not end in -us, so her name got changed into Bobus and has remained this ever since.
One more little story about Katharina . . . I was born in France and hence named with a supposedly original name, but little did my mother know that Katharina had been the most popular name in Germany for the previous four years or so and remained at that position for another couple of years. We only found out when we returned to Germany and there were 4 other girls in my class in primary school called that . . .
Well, quite enough random information for tonight.
Katharina (meaning "pure" in Greek - St Katharina is patron saint for teachers, students, philosophers and other such fabulous things)
The name is German, but as I live in England my last name is never spelt correctly - I will always
get PetersOn. People have previously not been able to find me on computer lists (e.g. at the travel agents) because they had
misspelt my surname. I try telling them that it's "Petersen, with all e's", but that usually confuses them to the extent that
they make me spell it all out.
I am surprised that you have such trouble! Here in Portland, Oregon, USA, there are 1 1/2 pages of Petersens, and 3 pages of Petersons in the phone directory. Thus, your spelling, while half as common, is far from rare. I had been told that the "en" version was Norwegian in origin, whereas the "on" version was Swedish. Am I misinformed?