More years ago than I care to remember, I worked in the legal system in Colorado. At that time and in that place, the past tense of "to plead" was always "pled". Now I'm back in Ohio and hear the consistent use of "pleaded" as the past tense. Dictionary.com lists both as acceptable past tense, with "pleaded" given first. Does anyone know if this is a recent change in usage or if the difference is, maybe, regional?

You've come to the right place. I don't know the answer, but we have a judge in the form of Father Steve -- our resident Anglican priest -- who (along with several others here, I'm sure, just to confuse you) will probably be able to answer your question. Meanwhile, to start off the confusion: "Pled" sounds better to me, but AHD4 gives "pleaded" as the preferred form:

http://www.bartleby.com/61/68/P0366800.html

My preference is "pled", too, operating on the "lead, led" model. I realize these things are always tricky in English.

Surely you'd say "He pleaded for his life" wouldn't you?

I think I'd use pleaded. Pled sounds off in my ears.

Actually, maverick, I WOULD say "pleaded for his life", but then I would say his killer "pled guilty". This may be one of those specialized uses in a particular trade.

I hear both usages in Michigan, but "pled" is probably the more common in (comparatively) casual use. For the purpose of publication of legal resources, I use "pleaded" based on the usage recommendation of the various dictionaries.

Now, if I could just get people to stop saying they "motioned" the court ...

I would tend to use both pleaded and pled, but with the following [bold]very[/bold] general rules:

I would use pleaded when the verb is intransitive and pled when the verb is transitive.

I pleaded with Theo to do his homework. Every night!

I pled ignorance.

I would also say, "I pled guilty." But I think even though guilty is technically an adjective, thus making the verb intransitive, that the construction uses guilty as a noun, or as a substitution for the phrase "state of being guilty."

I would never think, speak, or write that I pled with Theo to do his homework. That would always be pleaded.

To plea or not to plea. Hey, Asp, there it is!

TEd, that's a really good statement of how I would use those two words.
As for people "motioning" the court, I think they should be impacted with hammers....nouns being bastardized into verbs by lazy speakers of our wonderful language drives me nuts! I once wrote a radio piece on this in which I speculated on the rampant proliferation of this outrage and the resulting sentences: e.g. "If you don't vegetable, you can't dessert!' and "I'm hockeying tonight, can you car me?"

Frothin' at the mouth....

I used to be the head of our union at the newspaper I worked at - Father of the Chapel - and I had to bite my lip on many occasions when one of the lads or laddesses told me that they wanted to "pass a motion". I usually directed them to the toilets but they didn't get it. They thought that I was just taking the p*ss ... Well, I was. But not "just" taking the p*ss.

Dear Elizabeth ~

1. Bless you. There are far too few prescriptivists represented on this board, we are a sorely denigrated and ridiculed minority -- probably entitled to some sort of federal protection -- and another person ready to stand up for the decent and proper use of the language is always welcome.

2. I find "pled" and "pleaded" used interchangeably in the briefing which comes before me, as well as in the published appellate reports which I read.

3. When a lawyer says "I would like to make a motion," I often interrupt to ask "What's holding you back?" The poor things then look so confused.

4. Parliamentary procedure is no longer taught in the same way that Latin is no longer taught. Both -- which tend toward precision of thought and utterance -- are despised because slop -- sloppy thinking and sloppy expression -- is the order of the day.

5. I will be teaching a class this Saturday for newly-elected delegates to the diocesan convention of the Episcopal Church. In it, I will attempt to explain the rudiments of the parliamentary procedure which we use. Some of the class will become angry at some point in the session, as they realize that the rules of decision constrain them, when they want to be free, free, free.

6. Please never leave the board. It already gets kinda lonely here, from time to time.

Father Steve

> kinda lonely here

But Father Steve, your prescriptions are always more welcome than a doctor's pills! Suggestions on form of language based on sense, clarity, and euphony will rarely divide those with a love of language, I suspect.

What grates on those who love language but realise it is a fluid expression of people's thoughts and feelings is to hear those prescriptivists at work who would try to enforce arbitrary 'rules', which are often founded on a completely irrational or mistaken analysis of how language has been formed. It is also notable that many prescriptivists are actually complaining about changes in their society about which they feel angry or upset, rather than about language per se.

I am indebted to Richard H at the w/o board for pointing out this interesting discussion with Geoff Pullen, who imho gets this balance of accurate description (which includes noting that certain forms of language are markers of social groupings and so on) about right:

http://www.abc.net.au/rn/arts/ling/stories/s546929.htm

I have no intention of leaving this board! I love hangin' out with other people who like discussing language. And it's wonderful to have a prescriptivist or two besides myself - I sometimes feel like the lone voice in favour of those horrible, rigid rules. Who else here loves "Eats, Shoots and Leaves"?

It is also notable that many prescriptivists are actually complaining about changes in their society about which they feel angry or upset, rather than about language per se.

Hmm, I DO think that's part of it. I resent being spoken of (or to) as though I were a computer. ("Can you generate that number for me? Can I get hard copy of that?") I will 'fess up to having a hate-hate relationship with computers, as one was the Other Woman in my first marriage.

Jargon (language peculiar to a trade) does not belong outside its proper venue. If you want to "access" a file on your computer, I will grit my teeth and let you. If you want to "access" my house, I will be waiting with a frying pan in hand. I don't use the jargon of my trade (art) on people, because I don't feel it's respectful - it's not appropriate to apply it to people and it's not kind or polite to speak a foreign language to someone who may not understand it.
I get tired of non-prescriptivists whose catch-all argument is that English is a living language. This usually means that they can't be bothered to check on the difference between "imply" and "infer" (or "flaunt" and "flout") and figure they're interchangeable.
The only way you can flaunt the law is by waving a judge around.
And a rural "rowt" is a bunch of farmers retreating in a disorderly fashion.

waving a judge around Elizabeth! Are you saying we should give Father Steve a fling?? Frying pan, hmm? Interesting choice of weapon...which I gather it is, since if you were welcoming the accesser the pan would be on the stove, surely?
'Fraid I got lost on that rowt, though. Don't recall seeing the word before.

<<I will 'fess up to having a hate-hate relationship with computers>>

This is a wonderful statement! lol! (Reminds me of my favorite line from the admittedly not dialog-rich 2001 Etc., "I think I deserve an answer to that question, Dave."

<<The only way you can flaunt the law is by waving a judge around.>> -- And then, only sometimes.

<<And a rural "rowt" is a bunch of farmers retreating in a disorderly fashion.>> Shades of the American Revolution.

***

But these things are not all at the extremes, and even Lynn Truss's tongue was often found in cheek, although, unlike Wendy's fingers, this did not diminish sales.

Many thanks to all who were kind enough to respond to my question. Should I use either spelling incorrectly in the future, I shall plead not guilty by reason of insanity, and I feel sure no one will dispute it.

Father Steve might love a fling!
"rowt" is how many people pronounce "route". Living in a border area, I've noticed that the Americans I know seem never to say "root" for "route", but do say "rowt"; I find it deplorable that this is spreading, even to the CBC. A rural route is a mail delivery district. A rural rout is a bunch of farmers retreating in a disorderly fashion. I do not live on a rural rout.

There's a country song, popular in Ohio and Northern Kentucky several years ago, which alluded to the necessity of leaving Kentucky in favor of Ohio in order to find employment. The song title referred to the Three Rs, as taught in Northern Kentucky schools, as "Readin', Ritin', and Route 23" -- pronounced "rowt".

...I find it deplorable that this is spreading...

Yep, my namesake, you are a true prescriptivist! I say "root," but I don't understand what's "deplorable" about the other pronunciation. Language happens. [awaiting slings and arrows]

What a coinkeedink. I was just looking at the Vatican website, which tells the world that Benny's going to allow the teaching of sex education in American Catholic high schools. Their version of the three Rs will be Reading, wRiting, and Rhythmic tricks.

Who else here loves "Eats, Shoots and Leaves"?

William Strunk, Jr. doesn't:

http://bartleby.com/141/strunk.html#2

Okay, Anna, maybe the other pronunciation is not of itself deplorable. What I find deplorable is that a) CBC, once, when dinosaurs roamed the earth, the bastion of good Canadian English, has adopted this American pronunciation and b) the confusion. If I say "It was a complete rowt", how can you tell if I am referring to my new mail delivery job or the ousting of, say, hunters from my (posted) property by me with my little old frying pan?
Mostly b, I guess, although there is also a certain amount of protectiveness for my national liguistic identity.

the confusion. If I say "It was a complete rowt", how can you tell if I am referring to my new mail delivery job or the ousting of, say, hunters from my (posted) property by me with my little old frying pan?

Ya know? If we know enough of the context to know what the antecedent of [i]t is we'd parboly have no trouble knowing what you meant. Not to mention that the two phrases, at least in my ideolect, sound different.

Insel asked, in a PM, for references on parliamnetary procedure. I couldn't encourage the damned PM responder unit thingie hoozit to work. So here is my private reply, for all the world to see:

The Holy Bible is, of course, Robert's Rules of Order Newly Revised (10th Ed.), Henry M. Robert, III, William J. Evans, et al., Perseus Publishing, 2000.

The two introductory books which I recommend to the begnner are:

The Complete Idiot's Guide to Robert's Rules by Nancy Sylvester, Penguin, 2004.

and

Robert's Rules for Dummies (Dummies Series) by C. Alan Jennings, Wiley John & Sons, 2004.

When a lawyer says "I would like to make a motion," I often interrupt to ask "What's holding you back?"

Perhaps, since you are in charge, the lawyer is asking for permission. Certainly, making a motion is not contrary to the language of Robert's Rules of Order:


A motion is a proposal that the assembly take certain action, or that it express itself as holding certain views. It is made by a member’s obtaining the floor as already described and saying, “I move that” (which is equivalent to saying, “I propose that”), and then stating the action he proposes to have taken.

Fr. Steve:

I hope to make a long (very long) story fairly short.

When I lived in West Virginia, a circuit court judge was on trial for (among other things) issuing himself a concealed weapons permit without having the application published in a local paper. Among the other events leading up to the trial was his announcement that he would be the presiding judge at his trial because he was the circuit judge for that jurisdiction. It took literally an order of the WV Supreme Court to get him off the bench long enough for another judge to come in and preside.

During the proceedings he was asked on the witness stand if he kept his weapon with him at all times. "Yes," he replied. "I kept it with me always."

"Even on the bench?"

"Especially on the bench. I knew they were out to get me and I wanted to be prepared."

"Mr. Dostert, did you keep the pistol in your robe?"

"No. I kept it right on the bench in a hollowed out copy of 'Robert's Rules of Order.'"

We referred to this guy as the law west of the Shenandoah. This was in Charles Town, WV back in the very early 1980s. I'm not gonna tell much more, though there is a lot more, because this esteemed gentleman's escapades on the bench are part of my next novel, titled The Great West Virginia Copter Caper. He died without heirs a few years back, so I feel comfortable writing this without worrying too much about a lawsuit.

TEd

I don't get so upset about pronunciations since words are pronounced differently all over the world - and really, who's is to say who is ultimately right.

People automatically believe their own way of saying something is right - just because that is what they learned. Even dictionaries vary depending upon what variation of English they reporting on.

As always, Maverick's balanced and reasonable observations both make sense and give no cause for offense. Blessings, mav.

I enjoyed "Eats, Shoots and Leaves" for what it is -- something fun and far less than a serious work on punctuation. I especially enjoyed the curmudgeonly and superioristic tone in which bits of it were written. They reminded me a bit of Jeeves disapproving of some new article of clothing purchased by Bertie Wooster without his manservant's approval.

I obtained my copy from a bibliopole in the Mother Country. After reading and enjoying it, I bought copies for my children from an American bibliopole. Guess what! The American edition is not identical to the British edition. Does this happen often?

making a motion is not contrary to the language of Robert's Rules of Order

In mentoring young attorneys (as judges did me, many years ago), I urge them to be succinct and direct in addressing the court. "I move" seems vastly superior to "I would like to make a motion that ..." Or, at least, so I tells 'em.

This was in Charles Town, WV back in the very early 1980s.

I believe Charles Town was where John Brown (of Harpers Ferry fame) was both tried and executed.

Guess what! The American edition is not identical to the British edition. Does this happen often?

Yes, more often than you'd think! Actually, many years ago when I was reading the Horatio Hornblower series for the first time, the paperback edition of one book, published in NY, ended, I thought, rather oddly. Eventually I found a copy of the British edition, which, indeed, had another chapter. I wrote to the British publishers to draw this to their attention, and their answer was more or less that this all happened so long ago that nobody in the company knew anything about it anymore...dunno if it was ever fixed.
For another eg, apparently "Harry Potter and the Philosopher's Stone" was published in the US as "Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone" on the dubious grounds that American children wouldn't know what the Philosopher's Stone was. (Gimme a break!)Does anyone know if that's true, or just an urban myth?

Does anyone here know the feminine of "curmudgeon"? I think I may be turning into one......

> Harry Potter and the Philosopher's Stone

that is true, and I believe there were other word changes in the books, as well. I think, as the series went on, the changes became fewer.

a) good Canadian English; b) roural route or frying pan

Whatever one's preference for culture or tale, the answer to each is probability; to the first, in the form of market size.

Fr. Steve:

Yes. that's correct. I went to an auction there in 1980 or 1981, and found myself bidding on the wooden chest upon which Brown rode to his fate. I stopped at $500 or so and it went for $650 by the local historical society. I wish now I'd persevered. The wagon was also up for bids, but as I had no place to put it I didn't bother with a bid.

Charles Town is a great place to live now, and has actually become a bedroom community for DC and environs. A lot of people live there and commute into Loudoun and Fairfax Counties in Virginia. I took the train from Harpers Ferry right into DC and walked to my office from Union Station.

The tax rates in WV were about a quarter what they were across the river in Virginia. On the other hand, you got what you paid for.

Beautiful country with some very strange inhabitants.

I had a tavern there for a while, and had a couple of old geezers come in for a beer who swore they had never been outside Jefferson County, WV, even though it is only 430 square miles surrounded on three sides by either Virginia or Maryland. "Ain't got not reason to go over there." Amazing I lasted a year.

TEd

..as I had no place to put it I didn't bother with a bid.

TEd, you are obviously a man of iron will!

...the wooden chest upon which Brown rode ...

Huh. And I thought that he had a cold upon his chest.

Nahhhh, that was his baby. Remember? "So he rubbed it well with camphorated oiiiiiiiiiiiiillllllllllllllll."