Ok, so we don’t really -- not yet.

But since we’re on the subject, where in any Latin dictionary is the word ‘papa’? I’ve found ‘popa’ (a junior priest or temple servant), but not ‘papa’. Could it be that Latin isn’t as dead as we thought? Was my dear old Magister right? Is Latin only horribly wounded? Is it still evolving in Città del Vaticano? Or do I need to find a more comprehensive Latin dictionary?

It's in the Vocabulary section of A Primer of Medieval Latin by Charles H. Beeson.

It's our old friend papa meaning 'father,' common to many languages. Some think this an argument for common descent. See: http://www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=dn6188 Others say it's convergent evolution: http://www.sussex.ac.uk/linguistics/documents/where_do_mama2.pdf

WARNING: The second link is a pdf.

In reply to:

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It's our old friend papa meaning 'father'

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When staying in San Marino, my NZ co-worker heard his hosts address their father as "papa", and tried the same, only to be laughingly told that he had got the stress wrong, and had said "Pope", not "father". Fortunately, the family was not Catholic, so no religious sensibilities were hurt.

Latin lives!

The Vatican produced an "updated" Latin dictionary last year which includes the following:

taberna nocturna = night club
vinum rubrum Burdigalense = Merlot
iuvenis voluptarius = playboy
brevissimae bracae femineae = hot pants
tromocrates = terrorist
fistula nicotiana = cigarette
placenta compressa = pizza

"The Latinitas Foundation is an academic institution founded in 1976 by Pope Paul VI with the intention of preserving and evolving the Latin language. It publishes a quarterly review in Latin and a Latin dictionary that runs to 780 pages." ~AP

Dear Dgeigh,

Actually I think Latin has been sent thru a transporter and scrambled--at least as to its pronunciation. The French schools have their own pronunciation. English speaking lawyers have their own barbaric phonology, and the Church has its own, heavily influenced by Italian pronunciation.

When you say Latin do you mean Vulgate or Classic Latin? Evidently scholars have reconstructed the pronunciation of Classic Latin. Whether they got it right or not no one knows, because there are evidenlty no equivalent of Sanscrit linguistic texts nor of course any sound recording to verify their conjectures.

I wonder if anyone out there knows exactly what sort of evidence they used in this reconstruction?

BraveLad

what sort of evidence they used in this reconstruction?

Check the intro to Vox Latina by W. Sidney Allen. In the intro he answers both burning question: How do we know? and Who gives a flying fiddle-dee-dee? The two points I remember in answer to the first question are poetry and the rantings of prescrips. See, y'all *do have some redeeming social value. It just won't be realized for a thousand years or more.
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0521379369/002-5183401-0038439

An interesting, if short, article in the Torygraph at the weekend prophesied the end of Latin being taught in schools in the UK within 12 years. The reason given was that the number of people who are able to teach it is diminishing.

Well, there's a fool's logic for you. Let's hope it will continue to be taught elsewhere in the world so we don't completely lose the trick of it!

It's in the Vocabulary section of A Primer of Medieval Latin by Charles H. Beeson.

Ah-hah! Thanks, Faldage! I should have thought to look through the vocabularies of the books I have; although I don’t have Mr. Beeson’s work. Many is the time I’ve been unable to find a word in any of the Latin dictionaries I have, or the Latin dictionaries online, but vaguely remember reading it in a vocabulary, or more often an annotation, and, after some looking, find it.

I wonder why there are so many such words that haven’t made it into the dictionaries?


"updated" Latin dictionary

Thanks, Fr. Steve. Who’d a thunk it? (For some reason I have the black-and-white image of dear ol’ Doc Vic yelling “It’s alive! It’s alive!”)

Of course, I had to have a peek. Here’s the link for those interested: http://tinyurl.com/5w86h Yeah, yeah, yeah -- sorry about that; I was in a hurry.

One of my favorites is: brevíssimae bracae femíneae : hot pants. Although it does kinda make me wonder who is putting together the list of words that really need to be translated.


prophesied the end of Latin being taught in schools in the UK within 12 years

I wonder how that bodes for those of us to the left of the pond. I would think that the UK would be the last bastion of Latin in the English-speaking world. Perhaps I’ve been taking too many old movies to heart, ‘Goodbye Mr. Chips’ and all. vie sis ‘em / we kiss ‘em

Or either http://tinyurl.com/5w86h, one.

There are some interesting parallel texts and other resources for anyone interested, on this site:

http://www.arlt.co.uk/dhtml/arlt_db.php?catID=8

In addition, it gives details of the OBI award!

The Ordo Barbaricae Ignorantiae (OBI) is awarded to people or institutions whose words or actions show an inexcusable ignorance of, or hostility to, the Classics.

I would think that the UK would be the last bastion of Latin in the English-speaking world.

Meanwhile, in the Finnish-speaking world (such as it is), we have a weekly news radio broadcast in Latin. A quote from The Economist:

The Finnish Broadcasting Company (aka Radiophonia Finnica Generalis, or YLE) puts out a five-minute bulletin, “Nuntii Latini”, every week, and has done so for 14 years. The bulletins are broadcast worldwide, and are also collected and published as books. The conjunction of Latin with Finno-Ungaric makes for some bizarre listening and reading, as in

Anneli Jäätteenmäki, quae munere ministri primarii a mense Aprili functa est, a praesidente Tarja Halonen dimissionem petivit et accepit.

http://www.economist.com/diversions/displayStory.cfm?story_id=2281926

... yet another example of the Great Vowel Movement at work.

And I remember sitting in detention every friday afternoon during a Latin lesson in my junior high school (about ten years ago). However, I can't remember if this was just a passing experiment, or did the Latin teaching really continue... I do remember, that we weren't the only school in Tampere (approx. 200 000 inhabitants) were Latin was taught. And I guess that some of the workers' institutes in Finland do teach Latin as well. So Latin is alive and kicking here among the Northern barbarians

Thanks for the link AnnaStrophic, interesting article!