Google, 5 big libraries team to offer books
Collections will be digitally scanned
San Francisco Chronicle, December 14, 2004

"It's beyond what we believed would be possible in our lifetimes," said John Wilkin, an associate librarian at the University of Michigan. "Imagine what it means to have a great research library available to anyone in the world who has access to the Internet."

http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2004/12/14/BUGADABBS91.DTL

I imagine...

A revolution beyond Governments.
Unbridled human advance.
Complete disolvement of a social structure based upom wealth.
Individual self realization thus far only known in fables.

Unless...

A consortium of governments and peoples now in power can nip this little egalitarian adventure in its many many buds and then turn these electronic libertaries into devious machineries for the continuement of their ill-gotten stations.

Bastards!

But on the other hand, I'm optimistic!

...available to anyone in the world who has access to the Internet."

And the "great cultural divide" broadens.

"And the "great cultural divide" b r o a d e n s."

Look, Musick, the culture divide is shrinking!

PC Market Seen Doubling by 2010

Dec 14, Technology - Reuters

NEW YORK (Reuters) - The number of personal computers worldwide is expected to double to about 1.3 billion by 2010, driven by explosive growth in emerging markets such as China, Russia and India, according to a report released on Tuesday by Forrester Research Inc....

China is expected to lead the growth, with 178 million new PC users by 2010, Forrester, a technology research firm, said in a statement...

Some 566 million new PCs are expected to be in use in emerging markets by 2010, based on a study of adoption rates across 16 emerging markets, Forrester said in a statement. The 575 million PCs currently in use globally include about 75 million in emerging markets...

Mature markets in the United States, Europe and Asia-Pacific are expected to add 150 million new PCs by 2010, according to the study...


Growth in emerging markets will be driven by low-priced PCs made by local companies, Forrester said...


Forrester forecast that there will be 80 million new PC users in India by 2010, with an annual growth rate of 37 percent. Indonesia is expected to see 40 percent annual growth, with 40 million new users...


Of the 16 emerging markets included in the study, Mexico is expected to see the deepest PC market penetration, with 46 percent of Mexicans owning a PC by 2010...

Owning a PC and having access (even of a basic *nature) to the internet are two different things... especially in China.

Not that the internet has any *significant culture attached to it...

Owning a PC and having access (even of a basic *nature) to the internet are two different things

The "digital divide" is a serious problem in North America, not to mention China, Musick. But libraries now provide free Internet access in virtually every city and Bill and Melissa Gates have donated tens of millions of dollars to improve Internet access in libraries.

We certainly need to do more, but we are moving in the right direction.

And now people who can't afford a computer or Internet access will have access to some of the finest research libraries in the world.

What an astonishing and wildly exciting advance this is!

Forget how much this will oxygenate the stuffy, sequestered, hallowed halls of haughty academe, but consider what an explosion of new energy, and new insights, innovations and inventions it will produce when people outside a particular field of expertise start cross-pollinating their own research with research inside other fields of investigation which were previously inaccessible to them on a wide open, free-wheeling basis.

KABOOM!!!!

couldn't you walk to a library anyway?

couldn't you walk to a library anyway?

Not at Standford or Harvard or Oxford Universities, etaoin.

Not even if you live next door to them, if you don't possess a student card.

This is one small step for the humblest of us, etaoin, and one great leap for humankind.

It's a rather large leap to expect that as digital divides shrink so do cultural ones... even if the possibility is 'built in' the probability is not... and that's not even bringing up the issue of censorship in *public institutions.

I'm not sure I understand the argument.

Google, et. al. shouldn't do this, because most people don't have access? We could eliminate a lot more things from society on such a basis.

I'm having trouble seeing any downside to the project.

k

I'm having trouble seeing any downside to the project.

Yes, and let's consider that this is just the beginning.

Agreed, this isn't a cure for the "cultural divide", Musick.

It isn't a cure for cancer, or global warming, either.

Will it accelerate progress on these fronts? Perhaps. Indeed, it is hard to see how, as it gathers speed and evolves, it would not.

I'm having trouble seeing any downside to the project

sorry if my comment appeared to be a negative endorsement of this project. I think it's great, and look forward to seeing and using what should be an amazing resource. I'm just not sure that it will have quite the effect that many would hope(including myself). amazing resources are available to us now, for just a short hike to our local libraries, yet how many of us take advantage of that. I pessimistically guess that many of the people now coming to computers are not necessarily going to dive into all the knowledge areas of the net. more likely that they will do their shopping, and look up their favorite movie stars.
how's that for a gloomy outlook?
I'm going to think more about this, especially from a(n) historical viewpoint... books, etc...

re I'm going to think more about this, especially from a(n) historical viewpoint... books, etc...

Food for Thought?

PBS Online Newshour
Library and technology experts join Ray Suarez for a look at Google's plans to make reference libraries searchable online.

Extract:

RAY SUAREZ: Well, a colleague of yours said today, Daniel Greenstein from the California Digital Library of the U.C. system, that our world is about to change in a big, big way. What does it mean for the New York City Public Library to be available in this way?

PAUL LE CLERC: Well, the world is going to change and the world has been changing very dramatically over the course of the last ten years, minimally ever since the worldwide web came into being and libraries started, as we did, to put our collections on line, but this is going to blow open things in ways that are hard to even imagine I think over the course of the next decade.

http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/business/july-dec04/google_12-14.html

FF - The statement about the "cultural divide" was more 'commentary about' than 'argument against'. The more the merrier, I say! Unfettered access for all. I also don't see any downside to the project... other than people going to the library to get on the internet after all those hard working library people took the time to gather those books together... seemingly to have them just collect dust. (which seems to be somehow/what embedded in etaoin's comment)

Humankind can only keep so much "in mind" at a time... the more research manuals available the better, indeed! Not that another version of "A trillion monkeys at a trillion typewriters" perspective isn't worth the time... as something good is bound to become of it just from the increase in the amount of information at hand.

*****

We could eliminate a lot more things from society on such a basis.

Yeah, probably the 'internal combustion engine' should be the first to go.

amazing resources are available to us now, for just a short hike to our local libraries, yet how many of us take advantage of that.

When I lived in AK, I walked to the other side of the post almost every weekend to spend the money I had earned from babysitting on chess books and model tanks, but always on the way home I'd stop at the library a few hours. It was a cathartic ritual for me, though I don't recall ever having seen a single person my age in the place - or much of anyone else. No matter the age, people prefer to do what is easy and popular. Reading, studying, experimenting take some mental effort that most people are not prepared to commit in their free time.



I pessimistically guess that many of the people now coming to computers are not necessarily going to dive into all the knowledge areas of the net.


I'm sure that will prove true. But I'm also sure that the easier it becomes for people to get a smidgen of knowledge, the more likely it will be that they will search for and make use of that knowledge. People are morely likely to do what is easy and what has immediate payoff.

It's not a cornucopia. But it could very well have unexpected beneficial consequences.

Probably few people on the net today use Gutenburg, but I think the net is a better place for the existence of such a site.

Currently my employer pays for me to have an electronic bookshelf at O'Reilly as well as access for all employees to a much larger selection (20K volumes) in the other sciences from another site - and hundreds of journals. This is great for me and my colleagues. But I've always thought it would be even better when more stuff is available to a wider audience - for free.

k

Humankind can only keep so much "in mind" at a time... the more research manuals available the better, indeed!

Well, yes.


Not that another version of "A trillion monkeys at a trillion typewriters" perspective isn't worth the time... as something good is bound to become of it just from the increase in the amount information at hand.


I hope you mean this facetiously. The problem is not just the existence of the information, but finding the needle in the electronic bookstack - which google will hopefully assist in addressing.

k

well answered, FF. I, too, spent a lot of time at the library. and reading the Colliers at home...

But I'm also sure that the easier it becomes for people to get a smidgen of knowledge, the more likely it will be that they will search for and make use of that knowledge.

I hope that you're right. I'd like to think so, too.

But I've always thought it would be even better when more stuff is available to a wider audience - for free

yes! the Encyclopedia Galactica.

I hope you mean this facetiously.

Well, yes.

I admire and practice (as much as possible) the process known as "improvisation" which shows up 'many times many ways'(sic) across every feild of study, play, etc... where progress is intrinsic to the actual goal. However, we shouldn't all be lining up to cite which dictionary offered the most help to the trillion monkeys when they finally type out the cure for a "cultural divide"... it will be, by construction, a collective effort.

... where progress is intrinsic to the actual goal. However, we shouldn't all be lining up to cite which dictionary offered the most help to the trillion monkeys when they finally type out the cure for a "cultural divide"... it will be, by construction, a collective effort.

Now musick, that sentence lacks continuity. But amazingly, I agree with what you didn't say.

Milum. ( Sorry Ananastrophic, I have forgotten my password letters.)

... where progress is intrinsic to the actual goal. However, we shouldn't all be lining up to cite which dictionary offered the most help to the trillion monkeys when they finally type out the cure for a "cultural divide"... it will be, by construction, a collective effort.

Now musick, that sentence lacks continuity. But amazingly, I agree with what you didn't say.

Milum. ( Sorry Ananastrophic, I have forgotten my password letters.)

I know the digidivide is a serious issue, but there's an aspect of this project that is completely unique. It will digitise, for example, the entire 19c. records of the Bodleian which will make things available like unpublished hand-marked musical scores by the major composers, and it will also make available for study (by Jo Average anywhere in the world) materials that are currently too fragile for anyone to look at, with or without local access rights.

c'mon guys, this is a spot of great news! The tidal wave of crap on the web is a self-fulfilling exercise anyway, but this marks a very important step in the information age. Go google.

Uh, Musick...that second post was for emphasis. Sorry.

I'll tell you what, these title changes have had me grinning!
Reading, studying, experimenting take some mental effort that most people are not prepared to commit in their free time. Our Max being a very notable exception to this; I've never known anyone who studies as hard as he does--from pure self-motivation. A shining example that I admire from the slough of my laziness. Yep, I enjoy learning--but I want it to come easily. Though I suppose that, like any initiative, it can depend on our motivation.

One thing no one has mentioned (at least not by the time I started typing) is research on medical treatments; I began hearing years ago of sick people, or their loved ones, "ransacking" the internet, hoping to find a cure that their doctor wasn't aware of.

Another thing I was thinking of re: in-depth research and learning is the comfort factor: you can lounge with a book, and hold it as near or as far from your eyes as you want. Using a computer for hours on end can result in both muscle strain and eye strain. And it's the latter that would pose the less solvable problem, I think.

Also, it seems to me that two major "cultures" with divisions have been discussed: first-world as opposed to second- and third-world; and people who would be doing all this research as part of their jobs as opposed to individuals who are looking on their own. Perhaps some clarification on which aspect we're talking about could help.

I can't see any downside to the endeavor, either. However, I do feel that there are many individuals who will not make use of the free access, thus furthering the cultural divide; one group being the people whose major (only) concern is how soon they can get high again; another being those who believe that they're making a fine living selling drugs and/or being in a gang; and a third--those who are too poor to own a computer/pay for access and who live too far from a library to get there without great difficulty. And of course some people who are convinced they'd never learn how so why bother trying.

As to research--won't there be gaps in many areas? That is, don't many companies/individuals guard their privacy so others don't beat them to the punch, or whatever?

Also, like many other things, internet info. can be used for good or ill.

Now--having pointed out all those negatives, I will say that I am convinced that people in general are inherently good, and that therefore the beneficial outcomes will far outweigh the bad ones. And, as computers become more and more standard in schools--at least in the U.S.-- that in maybe a generation or so, virtually everyone will be aware of them and comfortable with them; and perhaps more familiarity will breed, if not exactly contempt, at least awareness and standards of use. The internet is the most addictive "new toy" I can think of--probably a "drug" for some people, at least for a while. I am hopeful that kids who grow up with it will therefore not see it as "new", and will then have it as just a part of their lives, not AS their lives. It is a godsend for people who cannot leave their home or their room; but we are social creatures who need the company of others.

Good to see you around these parts, Mav, and I'm with you all the way up to that "Go google" *crack.

******

Now musick, that sentence lacks continuity.

It was designed to continue later.

>I can't see any downside to the endeavor, either.

The downside will be sudden and dramatic. The dissemination of current knowledge will continue and accelerate, but the accumulation of new knowledge (and particularly of new creative fiction) will grind to a sudden stop.

Believe it or not, people write to make a living. Do any of you think professors write new textbooks for the fun of it? I've written a book; some of you have even read it. I know how much time, effort, and soul I poured into that paltry endeavor. But if I knew that anything I spent all that time and effort working on would be available for free to anyone who has a computer and a CD-W drive I wouldn't f**king bother! You cannot support a writing habit )or a family) on laudatory emails from people who liked your work. And I will bet every last nickel I have that people will not send a voluntary contribution to an author whose work they have already devoured in order for that author to have the whereiwthal to write a sequel.

Google has now effectively eviscerated the pool of present and potential writers throughout the world. The only ones who will write for publication are those who have axes to grind. In other words, eveything new will be propaganda of some form or another.

Certainly there will always be those who love to read, to hold in their hands a book with real pages, something they can feel with their fingers as they travel in their minds to imaginary places and situations; but those few are not enough to sustain an artist who wants to paint pictures with words.

As many of you are aware, there are available several electronic readers that have the size and shape of a book, but with an LCD screen which projects an image of a page. I've not actually seen one, but mark my words, this misguided effort on the part of google will have the effect of putting these contraptions into the hands of every third grader and above.

But in fifty years there won't be anything new to read except for the diatribes of polemicists or the random maunderings of amateurs whose egos are massaged by seeing their names at the top of a manuscript. Either that or governments will have to finance writers, a future I find to dreary to dwell further upon. What will we do, pay them by the download? Let me see, it takes me twenty-seven seconds to download my novel. I get say 50 cents a download. How many times a day can I download that? And use a computer to do it over and over again so I don't even have to be present while I am extorting money from the public fisc.

I consider this a sad day.

"Harvard University and the New York Public Library ... will make only a fraction of their expansive holdings available before deciding whether to expand the program."

"Oxford University, in England, has also signed on with Google's digitization project, offering only books published before 1900."

They said these schools would be making "their collections" available online, but they did not say that they would make every book available online. Could this harm new writers? Perhaps. OTOH, having a generally more literate populace - if that is a result - might have the contrary effect.

The use of computers will never replace sitting under a tree by the lake with a cold one, flipping through the pages of some fascinating new story, or sitting at a desk in the evening, wading through a dusty and venerable tome.

I spend nearly my entire workday at the tube. In the evenings, I'm also often on. But one of my favorite things to do is to take a book down to the local coffee- house and just relax. (As my employer loans me a laptop, I will sometimes take IT down to the closest Starbucks and work.)

Things will change. We'll be able to do a lot of things we only dreamt of before, and a few things about which we never even fantasized. Much crap will go down. Rotors will sling much of it about the room. But when the mist settles, I'll still be sitting in the corner with a copy of some classic (in paper or or memory as it suits my mood), clothes-pin on my nose and swigging my favorite caffeinated beverage.

k

"The downside will be sudden and dramatic. The dissemination of current knowledge will continue and accelerate, but the accumulation of new knowledge (and particularly of new creative fiction) will grind to a sudden stop
_______________________________________________TEd Remington 12-16-04

TEd, I have dated your quote above because one day soon it will be cited far and wide
with an allusion to the malapropic 19th Century rejoinder "Get a horse!".

Consider this...

People don't read for fun.
People read to learn.
Learning is fun.

If a writer is writing for money...that ain't fun.
And no one wants to learn something that ain't fun.

yep, that's right FF - a spokesman for the Bod was quite emphatic in BBC interviews today that they would not contemplate releasing anything over which there was even a chance of copyright infringement. So I think your cheque will still be in the email, TEd!

in fifty years there won't be anything new to read except for the diatribes of polemicists or the random maunderings of amateurs whose egos are massaged by seeing their names at the top of a manuscript…
So, no change, huh?

Thanks for the welcome, Chi! I love your concept of a suspension clause to sentences. Quite right, conversations are designed to

Hurry! I think that Maverick has fallen floorward in mid-sentence and can't get up!

"Thanks for the welcome, Chi! I love your concept of a suspension clause to sentences. Quite right, conversations are designed to

conversations are designed to

be two-way exchanges and so should leave gaps for others to

(thanks for your solicitude Milum - glad to see you're still around!)