from OneLook
Ergodic:
adjective: positive recurrent aperiodic state of stochastic systems; tending in probability to a limiting form that is independent of the initial conditions
so, something that happens once in a while, sort of regular-like, in something that is basically irregular?
like a run of heads.. when tossing a coin a 100 (or a 1000) times. in the long run, you'll get 50/50 but in the short run, you can get heads ten tims in a row..
And here I was thinking it would be one of those strange attractor thingies you her all those chaos theoreticians speaking of - something like if a butterfly flaps its wings in Mongolia, what the heck, we'll still get rain during a British Summer.
Mehbe you wouln't get so much rain if all them Mongolian busterflies quit flappin their dang wings so much.
in the long run, you'll get 50/50 -
Just to add my own twopence: The most significant thing about ergodic processes is, that the above result turns out whether you flip the coin today or tomorrow, in U.S. or Europe, on a mountain or at sea level etc. Most of basic thermodynamics relies on the ergodic behavior of molecules etc.
There is a lesser-known second definition of "ergodic", as well. In the field of game studies, ergodic refers to a piece of literature that requires choices by the reader/viewer/player to advance. The term was coined by Espen Aarseth, one of the preeminent names in the field, by combining the Greek roots for "work" and "path".
game studies - literature?
Game studies people tend to use literary terms in their discussions - read, text, literature. In this case I'm just using it to refer to the group of collected works that are being studied.
ah, thanks. I was remembering those books that were popular a few years back, that had alternate storylines and endings.
those books that were popular a few years back, that had alternate storylines and endings
The Choose-Your-Own-Adventure books are classic examples of ergodic literature (if not classic examples of literature in the more traditional sense!). There are other book-form examples -- there's apparently a Nabokov book where a sort of secondary story is told through the endnotes, which the reader can choose to read or not read.
wsieber, in what way would thermodynamics 'rely' upon ergodics? Can you give us a specific example that would illustrate the necessity of such reliance? ("Those of us" = laymen and otherwise literary, but not necessarily science-oriented folk) Thanks.
"Those of us"
That includes me. Yes, pls, Herr Sieber.
specific example : Boiling of water is a classic phenomenon determined by thermodynamics: At a given atmospheric pressure, the water boils at a predictable temperature(*), wherever and whenever the experiment is done. On the other hand, e.g. a living organism is not thermodynamically controlled: its behavior depends on its previous history, and is not entirely predictable.
(*)for nitpickers: this is valid once an equilibrium state is reached.
Well, thank you very much, ws. It simply seems like physics to me--the boiling of water. What would the predictable boiling of water under specific conditions have to do with the ergodics example of troy provided: the tossing of many heads in a row?
note there was a * next to boiling water.
you might know, most manufacters warn about overheating water in a microwave oven.
when water is heated, it tends to 'move' and as it moves over small flaws in a finish (of a pot or cup) 'bubbles of steam' break out. (it moves on a molecular level, and watched, you can see eddies of movement!)
but if you microwave water in a super smooth vessel (a brand new glass beaker) it can super heat.. that is, it can reach 220 or 225 degrees (hotter than boiling) with no evidence! the smooth sides/bottom of the vessel doen't offer any places for the fast moving molocules to snag on, and 'burst into bubbles' (of steam)--so the steam stays trapped in the water, super heating it.
when you move the cup, you can slosh the super heated liquid,and break the surface tension.. then it can 'explode' --with a gush of steam, that releases the excess heat, and splashes the water.
so, its quite possible to heat water (under normal pressure) to a super hot liquid.. but normally (one good wash with a nylon scrubby) steam will start to expand and 'erupt' gently (in the form of bubbles) from water at 212 degrees F.
since mirco waves have become common, there have been more that several occations when super heated water has injured people.. (i don't really know if that is ergodic example or not.. but boiling water isn't as 'predictable' as you might think!)
How very, very interesting, of troy.
And this must be somehow related:
I froze a bottle of beer--not quite frozen, that is, but cooled it down quite a lot for just over an hour. Upon taking the bottle of beer out of the freezer and popping the top off what appeared to be just very cold liquid beer, suddenly the contents began to turn to slush. It was the most remarkable phenomenon--and I watched the slush literally become created inch by inch thereby making it impossible to pour the beer.
Somehow I think the bubbles/boiling slush/freezing tales must be related.
Similarly, water can be supercooled and will not turn to ice while it is moving. Running water in northern streams in wintertime is a perfect example.
i had a friend wh9o worked in an ice-making plant in DC many years agol He said that they cooled water in big vats with paddles roiling the water, and when the paddles were removed the ice formed instantly with a big thump. The vats were square but had tapered sides so the ice would have a place to go when it expanded.
Also, something interesting. Water, like most solids and liquids, tends to shrink in size (up to a point.) And that point is 4 degrees Celcius. If you cool water below that down toward zero C, which is the freezing point, it actually expands slightly in volume.
This is why definitions for volume/weight based on water specify that the water be at 4 Celsius. That way all scientists have the same amount of water in a given volume when doing experiments.
re:Also, something interesting. Water, like most solids and liquids, tends to shrink in size (up to a point.) And that point is 4 degrees Celcius. If you cool water below that down toward zero C, which is the freezing point, it actually expands slightly in volume.
yeah, every homeowner knows that! water expands when frozen and bursts the pipes!
super cooled and super heated liquids are strange things, as are non newtonian fluids. (these are fluids that don't generally follow newtons 'laws')
for example.. take a bowl of water (or a pitcher) stir (whirl) it at high speed. (with a mixer/in a blender) and the liquid get 'thrown' to the sides, and upwards.. it moves rapidly in responce to the whirling blades.
now take egg whites.. and watch them.. they don't get flung to the sides, they will (at low speed) climb up the beaters blades (right up to opening for beater to attach to the motor if you are not careful!) STP (oil treatment) does the same thing! (which is why its suppose to be good for your engine.. unlike oil/water/most liquids, it too clings to moving parts, and is not 'flung away' --it adds this cling property to your oil, making it 'cling better' and coat the moving parts with oil better.
i have no idea how well it works in an engine, but its works like a champ in a bowl with a hand mixer!
of troy, m'dear - Do we even *want to know why you were using a hand mixer on a bowl of STP?
how did you entertain your kids on rainy days of summer? a used hand mixer (price $1 cause it only worked on low) was great fun for mixing non food items..
another cool--but messy-- non newtonian fluid is a slurry of corn starch and water.. (technically its not really a liquid, but a solution of corn starch in water)...
but the important thing is this:
when under stress, corn starch molicules align themselves at right angles to the stress..
which in lay man's terms means--if you smack (really hard, really fast!) your hand into a pie plate filled with a cup fo cornstarch slurry, you don't get covered with the slurry!
as you hit it, it becomes hard (rock hard! use an open hand, not a fist!) but seconds later, as your hand just sits there (not smacking) it is no longer 'stressed' and your hand just sinks in.. --and gets covered with corn starch slurry..
we bought lots of old rotary dial phones too, to take apart, and 'play' with. my son still has and uses a rotary phone he build for himself (mounted on a block of wood) it looks strange, (it has a toggle switch for reciever up/down) and the handpeice hangs on the side)
one year we made 'salt rising bread' by cultivating a salt (brine) tolerant yeast--that was rather aromatic..
the kids liked when we did super saturated solutions.. (and make rock candy, and rock salt)
we were always doing crazy projects/experiments.
What a terrific mom you were (are), of troy! The only Newton I ever had in my childhood kitchen was that of figs.
Yes, water expands en frozen, but it also expands before it freezes, which was the point of my previous note. So far as I know it's the only molecule that acts in that peculiar fashion.
Normal logic coupled with a knowledge of physics leads you to expect that water at 2 degrees C will be more dense than water at 4. But that's not the case.
Certainly when water changes state at 0 C it expands dramatically, and that's what bursts pipes. The expansion of water in the liquid state between 4 and 0 C is very very slight, and only of serious interest to people doing complicated experiments.
I have a friend who says warm water freezes faster than cold water. I haven't tried to experiment with that yet. Do y'all think it has anything to do with the minerals in the water?
oh you should google for info--i do remember reading that someone did actually perfome a series of experiements about hot/warm/cold water and freezing time..
hot water does freeze marginal faster, --but more important it freezed clearer.
air is an insultator. (a pretty good one too) most of the 'warmth' of clothing is based on how good the clothing is at traping air around our body -while still letting moisture evaporate.
air trapped in water --and cold tap water is often 'aerated' has lots of air. hot water has less (especially water that has been heated (boiled) and let to set for 2 or more minutes (so its cools a bit, but it's still very hot)
with out all the air, the water freezes 'evenly'(and faster,(no air to insulate/retard the freezing process) and you have smaller chunks of the milky white ice in the center of cubes/block (which is white because of small bubbles of air) and the clear ice can freeze colder.. (since there isn't downward limit to how cold ice becomes.
'ice companies' use distilled water for freezing to make large clear blocks of ice for sculptures.
"...warm water freezes faster than cold water."
Does this sound right of troy?:
If the water is pure, with no minerals or gases (usually air), the cold water will freeze faster, because it’s closer to 0C already. If, by heating water that has trapped gases, some of these may be released and because it’s purer, it’s possible that a warm container of this water will freeze faster than a cooler container (of the same size) that has some trapped gases. On the other hand, if there are dissolved minerals in the water, heating will concentrate these “contaminates” and the water will freeze less fast at the same temperature and even more slowly if it’s warmer than it’s cool unheated partner.
However, there ARE alligators in the sewers of NYC.
Ergodic
adjective: positive recurrent aperiodic state of stochastic systems; tending in probability to a limiting form that is independent of the initial conditions.
Really now,
the word "ergodic" is a contrived mathematical term devoid of any semblance of meaningful semantical function.
Except to impress the non-cognoscenti.
And as such it will soon become the avant-garde by-word of today's scientific community.
Shame.
owlbow, go to the straightdope link given above; it comes closer to the straight dope of the matter.
the word "ergodic" is a contrived mathematical term devoid of any semblance of meaningful semantical function.
Or:
I don't understand it, therefore it's stupid.
My aren't we testy this fine Thursday morn.
Can't a girl have an opinion?
Yup. It's a dope site alright. I've put in my "Favorites". Thanks tsuwm.
Can't a girl have an opinion?
But then, by proclaiming yourself unimpressed you declare your non-membership in the ranks of the non-cognoscenti.
I think that was an example of ergodic negativity...
boiling(!) all of the physics/math jargon down to basic terminology (thereby rendering the term useless to physicists/mathematicians), ergodic would seem to pertain to systems that are predictable or states that are repeatable over time, irrespective of the original state.
systems that are predictable or states that are repeatable over time, irrespective of the original state - Yes, within the limits of probability calculus. The important thing is our instinctive tendency to assume that phenomena are ergodic, even if this is far from true, e.g. on the stock market.
... "ergodic" would seem to pertain to systems that are predictable or states that are repeatable over time, irrespective of the original state.I might respectively point out that (a) nothing is irrespective of it's original state. And (b) most all systems are, to an extent, predictable. The very term "system" implies a certain "order" that functions.
Let's face it fellows, Noah Webster's first rule of definitions applies here, i.e.
No definition of a word should be more oblique than the word itself. So...
Ergodic:
adjective: positive recurrent aperiodic state of stochastic systems; tending in probability to a limiting form that is independent of the initial conditions....as such, is very likely contrived scientific jive and is, therefore, gobbledygook.
Unless, of course, they meant something akin to "stabilization".
Werner ~
Where ya been?
Father Steve
Where ya been?..away from the office, from the computer, from ergodic squabbles
As happenstance would have it, I received in the USPS yesterday a book by Espen J. Aarseth called Cybertext: Perspectives on Ergodic Literature. Aarseth has a wonderful quotation from Italo Calvino:
"Literature is a combinatorial game that persues the possibilities implicit in its own material, independent of the personality of the poet, but is a game that at a certain point is invested with an unexpected meaning, a meaning that is not patent on the linguistic plane on which we were working but has slipped in from another level, activating something that on the seocnd level is of great concern to the author or his society. The literature machine can perform all the permutations possible on a given material, but the poetic result will be the particular effect of one of these permutations on a man endowed with a consciousness and an unconsciousness, that is, an empirical and historical man. It will be the shock that occurs only if the writing machine is surrounded by the hidden ghosts of the individual and his society."
Calvino was involved with the French experimental writing group, Oulipo (ouvroir de littérature potentielle, or workshop of potential literature) which included Georges Perec, Raymond Queneau, François Le Lionnais, and Harry Mathews. They played around wtih language and texts mixing math and literature. One of their most famous bits was the S + 7 gimmick: take a text and replace each noun in it with the 7th noun after the original noun's entry in some agreed-upon dictionary. Fun stuff. Aarseth's book is mainly about text-based adventure games.
One of their most famous bits was the S + 7 gimmick: take a text and replace each noun in it with the 7th noun after the original noun's entry in some agreed-upon dictionary. Fun stuff. Aarseth's book is mainly about text-based adventure games.
One of their most famous bitstocks was the S + seven ginger: take a thalamus and replace each novelette in it with the 7th novelette after the original novelette's environmentalism in some agreed-upon didactics. Fun stun. Aarseth's bookman is mainly about text-based adventure gamesters.
::shrug::
::shrug::
This is the best AWADtalk-related laugh I've had in weeks. As I've learned all to often on this site and nothers: one man's mead is another man's poisson. Thanks for making my day, tsuwm. [wiping a tear from his right eye and sniffing /]
Oof, I have to admit, jheem, that if a book started with that Calvino quote, I'd put it down and never open it again.
I have loads of trouble following such convuluted sentences. They read like if somebody wanted to make himself appear intelligent but it's illegible to me.
I'd put it down and never open it again.
To each her own. I've read a couple of Calvino's novels and really liked them. If on a Winter's Night a Traveller being my favorite. Sometimes authors just use language in a way that they and a few others understand. (Which is not to say that some authors don't intentionally obfuscate or babble.) And sometimes folks who don't understand take it as a sign of offense rather than communication. Some people look at the computer books I read and shake their heads in doubt of my sanity or the author's intentions. I've tried on more than one occasion to read Arcadia by Sir Phillip Sydney and Moby Dick and failed. Just couldn't physically read them.
didja ever try any Buckminster Fuller?
whee!
I don't take it as an offence jheem. It's just not writing I like.
Several months ago, I had the same reaction to an Ann Rice novel. I know she is beloved by so many people, but I just couldn't get through her adjective-laden, repetitive prose.
trouble following such convuluted sentences
On the other end of the spectrum, Ernest Hemingway's short sentences produce a style so choppy that I'd get seasick if I were to get seasick.
One of their most famous bitstocks was the S + seven ginger: take a thalamus and replace each novelette in it with the 7th novelette after the original novelette's environmentalism in some agreed-upon didactics. Fun stun. Aarseth's bookman is mainly about text-based adventure gamesters.
trouble following such convoluted sentences - I suspect it is the translator who is to blame here: You can't move from a latin-based language to English without chopping down the periods.
Bel, Jheem
This sounds like the ideal opportunity. I'm gonna start it. Watch out.