does anyone find the expression 'My Bad' as a mea culpa admission as annoying as i do? i've been seeing and hearing it withing increasing frequency lately, and i'm wondering about its etymology. (the sad thing is that i've found myself using it a bit, lately... but only when in Rome.)
Do any of you use it? Does it by chance trace its origins to the world of sports? i hear it often on the tennis court.
bridget=)
Ipsa scientia potestas est ~Bacon
Yes, Bridget, I am of the same opinion. And by your very definition, "mea culpa" is so much more erudite. I thought that's what tennis courts were for... the refined who can be trusted to wear white. Leave "my bad" for the rugby field. [impishly holding a match to the international tinderbox emoticon]
I have also heard this as "My bag," which I understand less than "My bad" and thus find even more excruciating.
I find the expression puzzling; why not simply say "my mistake?"
I first heard "my bad" from my step-son when he was about 9. Seems he had been using that expression for quite a while (he is 15 now) and was even encouraged to use it. I gathered he had invented the phrase himself. I don't think he's the source of current wide-spread use of it, though. He doesn't get around _that_ much and neither rugby nor tennis is his bag.
(I love it. The spell-checker seems to think that "rugby" should be "rugged.")
nikeblack observed that
The spell-checker seems to think that "rugby" should be "rugged."And, for once, Ænigma is absolutely right! Rugby
should be rugged, and many here in NZ feel that a loss of ruggedness has contributed to the downfall of the national Godhead.
Belonging to the infamous generation from which these terms appear to come I don't think "my bad" and "my bag" are the same. My bad, as you have pointed out, means "my mistake". I really don't know where it came from. But "my bag" means, as far as I know, "something I like" or "something with which I'm associated." In the movie Austin Powers, when Austin arrives in the present after being cryogenically frozen he is given a box of his belongings. Contained therein is a Swedish [you know what] Enlarger. Somewhat flustered, Austin tells his new partner, a young lady of the '90s, that it's "not my bag, baby." Austin is supposed to be from the 1960's so I would say that "my bag" was a '60s UK term.
JazzO comments: Austin is supposed to be from the 1960's so I would say that "my bag" was a '60s UK term.
Quite right. The phrase was a small brick in the structure of the Hippie Culture. Well, except for the UK part. It was in common use in the States, too.
I was treadling away on some dreary machine at the gym and thinking about Bridget's dislike of "my bad." A phrase I _really_ hate came to mind, to wit, "it's a mute point." Drives me up the wall when ostensibly well-educated colleagues of mine use that phrase in a discussion. One of these days...
But, it got me to thinking, what about "it's a moot point?" I use that sometimes and am I using it correctly, I thinks. Off to the dictionaries. First my steadfast Oxford Universal Dictionary (1933, 1956) (takes up less shelf space than the OED) - moot = debatable, doubtful, undecided (among other things.) Next: my 1973 Webster's New Collegiate does have an added def. "deprived of practical significance..." So, in current American usage I seem to use "moot point" correctly, as in, "this point is unimportant in this discussion." Was curious then to see what one of our older dictionaries (husband's collection) had to say on the matter:
1943 Collegiate - "debatable"
1936 Webster's Universal Unabridged - "debatable"
1956 The Volume Library - "debatable"
Essentially, they all followed the Oxford's lead.
So, sometime between 1956 and 1973 we, Americans at least, acknowledged that we were using "moot" to mean "of no significance in this discussion."
Wow, glad I cleared that up. ;-) Hmm, may be time to go get the newest new dictionary...
Aenigma seems to think that OED should be Oedipal.
"it's a mute point" is my pet peeve #37 (I think, I seem to have lost track ;) -- and you're right, it's only the pseudo-educated who would even
think of using this.
>So, sometime between 1956 and 1973 we, Americans at least, acknowledged that we were using "moot" to mean "of no significance in this discussion."
It looks like I must have been misunderstanding people for years then, i was only aware of the pre- 1956 definition (and i'm not
that old!).
There are lots of Moot Halls in English towns. I assume that they were built for debating and contribute towards the use of the term "moot point".
Here's a couple:
http://www.btinternet.com/~lake.district/kes/kestic.htmhttp://www.bedford.gov.uk/bedford/tic/john bunyan moot hall.htm- put the words "moot hall" into Google to find others.
In the law, "moot" is a term of art, and a moot issue is one which is not capable of judicial resolution because the controversy no longer presents a matter for which there is a remedy. A court will dismiss a case if the issue it presents is moot. I suspect that the use of "moot point" in everyday parlance stems from the legal meaning.
WARNING: CONTROVERSIAL SUBJECT ENSUES. I WOULD HAVE CHOSEN A MORE MUNDANE ILLUSTRATION IF I COULD HAVE THOUGHT OF ONE QUICKLY THIS EARLY IN THE MORNING. BY USE OF THIS ILLUSTRATION, NO POSITION ON THE ISSUE IS SUGGESTED, AND NO DEBATE INVITED. Thank you.
An example of a moot case: a pregnant young girl seeks to have an abortion, and under the laws of the state she must have the consent of her parents to undergo the procedure or must obtain the permission of the court based upon a showing of psychological or medical necessity. The parents refuse consent, and she commences an action in court to obtain judicial approval. Based on the evidence presented, the court determines that there is an insufficient showing of necessity under the statutory standards, and also refuses permission. The girl appeals. While the trial and appellate proceedings have occurred, of course, her pregnancy has progressed, and by the time the appellate court hears the controversy, she has already given birth. At that point, the appellate court is liable to dismiss the appeal on the basis that the issue is moot, ie, no longer capable of remedy because there is no abortion to perform.
Sparteye:
You could just have easily used the Supreme Court's ruling on our recent Presidential election as an example. <insert "ducking for cover" emoticon>
Yah. I don't know why I didn't think of
that case when mind-surfing for noncontroversial issues.
jmh -
Interesting isn't it how our language changes before our very eyes (ears?), sometimes so subtlely that we don't notice! My father is still ranting about the "new" verbs - to host and to parent, not to mention what he considers the grammatical disaster of "It's me!" And then, there's that wonderful word - gay. I find it sad that "gay" now carries such baggage for some people that we can essentially no longer use it to mean - light hearted and happy.
Sparteye -
yes, I knew about the Moot Halls and moot court... The Anglo Saxons (of Beowulfian times) met in Moot Halls to hold a "gemot" or "meeting" (cf www.fordham.edu/halsall/source/560-975dooms.html#Glossary). When I was at Pitt (pre-PC days!) the law students there had to argue before a moot court. It was the only time I saw an otherwise cocky law-student housemate have a fit of nerves! Thanks for this little diversion - haven't delved into Anglo-Saxon in years!
I'm perfectly happy to give up one word out of thousands to give a previously closeted (hmmm... Architecture thread?) group of individuals a rallying point. If I can't use the word 'gay' anymore for it's original meaning, but it makes a large group of people a bit happier and lighter of heart, then they are more than welcome to it.
Poster: Solamente, Doug.
I'm perfectly happy to give up one word out of thousands If I can't use the word 'gay' anymore for it's original meaning, but it makes a large group of people a bit happier and lighter of heart, then they are more than welcome to it.
Yes, indeedy, Doug.
Words change, meanings change!
As times change we give up one way of thinking for another.
One can only hope that attitudes will undergo a similar metamorphosis.
wow
It seems to me that this word is currently going through another change. It obviously still has the "homosexual" meaning, but now, as, I guess, a reference to this, people are calling something that they find unfavorable "gay".
Ex. "I can't believe the principal made a rule against wearing hats in school, that's so gay!"
>Ex. "I can't believe the principal made a rule against wearing hats in school, that's so gay!"
Thinking about the implications of that usage of "gay" puts me in despair, once again, of the human race.
Thinking about the implications of that usage of "gay" puts me in despair, once again, of the human race.
Thank you, nike, for that sentiment. I have had a couple of well-loved gay friends in my time. Try not to despair, my child--perhaps not in your lifetime, but maybe in your
children's or grandchildren's, we will most of us come to our senses and realize we are all just people.
I read this and thought... I don't think I've ever heard anyone say this. And then tonight I was standing behind my husband when he was talking and he said it, I about fell over. It's like I opened the thread and let some evil in my home.
So far, it appears "my bad" doesn't travel well. I don't remember ever hearing it in this part of the world. Which is just as well, because although I'm a short, mild man, hearing that expression would make me very bitter. Which would make me a half-pint of mild and bitter (yes, I
did steal that line - from "Asterix" I believe.
)
But quite seriously, it sounds like something that might "grow" in East LA or among BelligerentYouth's rappers - where it should definitely stay!
Looks like it is time to revive the Tom Robinson song - I'm sure that helped claim the word at the time.
Sing if you're glad to be gay
Sing if you're happy that way, hey
Sing if you're glad to be gay
Sing if you're happy that way, hey
In UK Law schools, a moot is also a form of debate (frequently on a point of law that has already been decided, but using an imaginary case), that is used to allow law students to practice debate in front of a 'court'. More often than not, it is run as a form of competition, sponsored by one of the big law firms, and it is a hugely prestigious thing to win and looks fantastic on the CV!
I remember reading once that in English common law (and in most American law, since it follows ECL) you can be found guilty or not guilty-- but in Scot's common law-- you could be found guilty, not guilty or Not proven-- so it was moot (debatable) as to your guilt or innocence. (Jo-- any idea if this still holds? or does Scotland use ECL?)
In US it might be a hung jury-- but my impressions of Not proven is all the jurors agree-- they want to find you guilty-- but didn't think the case made was strong enough to prove beyond reasonable doubt--so it was still debatable-- Unlike an acquittal, Not guilty-not proven didn't quite clear your name.
Sparts case of a point being moot--was a good example of a second way it is moot is used. a sense that no matter what is decided, the outcome won't be effected.
Crossing thread-- i realize i am one of those people who use noodle for noddle-- as in Use your noodle! until it was pointed out-- i didn't even see the differences between the two words! but i know how to use moot!
Following up on the Tolkien references from another thread, in the Lord of the Rings series, when all the Ents gather together for a discussion of what to do with the hobbits and their news, they hold an Entmoot.
Hyla notes: when all the Ents gather together for a discussion of what to do with the hobbits and their news, they hold an Entmoot.
Which shows Tolkien's scholarly research. The folcmot was the Saxon People's Court. When something of importance to the community was to be decided a folcmot would be held.
www.fordham.edu/halsall/source/560-975dooms.html#Glossary
Thanks for that fascinating ref, nikeblack.
Looked at it-- and thought of glebe.
My old neighborhood in the bronx had a "dog leg" street known as glebe avenue. The avenue was the border of the old (Chuch of St Anne--old anglican church-- with an alter stone donated by Queen Anne) church glebe.
Are there any other glebe's in US? how about elsewhere?
>but in Scot's common law-- you could be found guilty, not guilty or Not proven-- so it was moot (debatable) as to your guilt or innocence. (Jo-- any idea if this still holds? or does Scotland use ECL?)
I might need to phone a friend. It is definitely quite different but I'm not sure of the fine tuning!
This discussion of the Scottish "Not Proven" has added a new dimension to the Lockerbie trial. "Not Proven" would seem to be the dream verdict from the political/diplomatic point of view. Everybody could claim justification, with Libya saying "We told you so," and the prosecution claiming a moral victory. Cynic that I am, I am beginning to wonder if the availability of a "Not Proven" verdict was a factor in all sides agreeing to conduct the case under Scottish Law.
In reply to:
my impressions of Not proven is all the jurors agree-- they want to find you guilty-- but didn't think the case made was strong enough to prove beyond reasonable doubt--so it was still debatable-- Unlike an acquittal, Not guilty-not proven didn't quite clear your name.
My impression is more the opposite, that the jury knew damn well you did it but didn't think you should be punished. Somebody, I forget who, defined it as "Not guilty, but don't do it again."
Bingley
There's an older inner suburb of Hobart, Tasmania, known as The Glebe -- I don't know its history.
not proven
... which is pronounced differently to (at least my) normal version of the proof word, being something like PRO-ven, rather than PRU-ven. Or is this a standard form in Scots-influenced areas of our conversation?
but in Scot's common law-- you could be found guilty, not guilty or Not proven
May I call the play "The Chalk Garden" to your attention. Saw the play with the wonderful Miss McKenna in lead.
The "not proven" verdict and its result is one of the pivotal points of the play. Wonderful evening. Play was made into movie which may be available at your video rental store. Have also seen it on American Movie Classics (AMC) television.
wow
glebe
As I understand it, a glebe is the land surrounding a church or its rectory/vicarage which the incumbent rector/vicar is entitled to use for his own purposes. Since this is a part of the establishment set-up of the Church of England, one would not expect find it in the U.S., where the perquisites of a clergyman do not involve real estate, other than church-supplied housing.
We have a couple of glebes here in Virginia that I know of, one in Northern Virginia and one on the Northern Neck. My understanding is that glebes were lands donated by the English government to the Anglican Church for the establishment of new churches during the colonial period. The lands themselves are probably no longer referred to as glebes, but the term lives on geographically, ie: Glebe Road in Arlington and Glebe Point on the Northern Neck.
Bob:
On rereading your post I remembered that there is a secondary agricultural meaning to the word glebe. I wonder if the rector's "own purposes" might have included farming as a way to supplement his income or to establish self sufficiency.
Well in the 1680's, when the church was founded, New York was New Amsterdam-- and for the next hundred years or so, it was an English colony, (where the Anglican church would have received tax/state suppport)
I don't know if the land in the glebe remained church property, and was sold off, or if the the glebe became township or common property. But the old borders of the glebe are marked by an avenue that has a 90 degree bend, since it was the path around the glebe.
Its not clearly marked, but Glebe Avenue is make a 90 degree turn– just about where the G of glebe is on the map.
http://maps.infospace.com/_1_4LB1TBB02TBBC12__info/kevmap?op=MoveMap&otmpl=/kevmap/map-out.htm&lat=40.8391&long=-73.8488&lat_p=40.8391&long_p=-73.8488&QA=glebe+ave&QC=bronx&QS=ny&QZ=10463&QO=US&width_o=360&height_o=270&detail_o=0&scale_o=1&matchpass=STREET&width=360&height=270&detail=0&scale=1The area remained "tory" during the war-- and after the war several families return to England rather than live in the Independant new country.