My dad, not noted for his culinary skills, used to say
"When it's black it's done!"
Later, my son adapted it to "When the smoke detector goes off, it's ready."
All who are reading this are at liberty to use when/if the occasion arises.
wow

wow mentions: "When it's black it's done!"
and adds "When the smoke detector goes off, it's ready."

Sounds like the logical extreme of my "When you can smell it, it's ready."

I believe the nail has been hit squarely on the head already... There is no such thing as (or at least standard of) formality that is specifically US's...

... yer 'Merican aintcha (Is that the M word?)...

Let the stink on the monkey fade! You ain't gonna get it to shake a tower...

Let the stink on the monkey fade! You ain't gonna get it to shake a tower

What about the stink on the funky maid? And could you get her to take a shower?

Faldage declared, stoutly no doubt: I have come to think that this while/whilst thing is just another case of the Anglophon()es twitting the poor US'ns. They don't come clean here I'mo go back to using the "M" word.

I don't think it is a dig at Americans, personally. "Whilst" may have once been the formal initial "While", but now it is rarely used in anything I read which has been written recently. I suspect that it's a word which is simply falling into obsolescence as words will. One English teacher I had at school once said that it was a word frequently used by those whose grasp of the language was less than firm to convince their readers that this was not the case.

I don't know if this is true or not, and I couldn't find anything to confirm or deny his view.

I think each country has its share of obsolete terms. I wasn't aware until this thread that whilst was obsolete, any more so than most people in the USA would think that there was anything strange about the word "gotten".

Even the word "folks" is really only in general use in the sense of "old folks" I always found "that's all folks" at the end of cartoons designed for children a little strange.

I will happily say to the children, "just stay in the car whilst I pop into the post office". Whilst I wouldn't say, as has been discussed:
"I could whilst away the hours
conferrin' with the flowers
consultin' with the rain." if only had a brain!

I'd call a monkey wrench a monkey wrench but a spanner a spanner.

By the way - how does anyone kill Dr Black with a spanner in Cluedo whilst in the conservatory if you don't have spanners! Solve that one!!!

But our Game of Clue-- there isn't a spanner-- there is a wrench! and nobody in US does anything "whilst" any where!

But watch out for the maid, she was seen carrying a large candle stick in the parlor!

>a large candle stick in the parlor!

Is there really a parlour (or are you joking?), now that really is an archaic term, next time you'll be telling me that you put your clothes in a closet!

yes, there is a parlor (Parlour) and while that is a bit old fashioned-- it is a term still used by grandparents-- and in formal houses. (i have a living room-- if i had a larger house, i might have a family room, or rec room, and a living room, but my nana had a Front parlor.) and my ex's grandmother had a parlor too. so my kids got used to calling great grandma's living room a parlor-- (for a while my daughter thought a parlor was a living room with out a tv!)

and yes, i do keep my clothes in closets! I wish i had more closets! I have an armoire-- but it doesn't have space for hang things-- it has shelves and drawers. I am a clothes horse so i have lots of clothes-- i also have a shoe cubby-- a small cabinet just for storing shoes (36 pairs) Where else would i have my clothes?

Jo contibutes: "just stay in the car whilst I pop into the post office"

Which is getting to the point of my question. Thank you, Jo. Now, would you say "just stay in the car while I pop into the post office"? If not, why not?

PS
As those of you who are at all interested at this point already know Ænigma thinks whilst is a whim.

Parlor
The parlor, in the USA, is indeed an archaic vestige of the olden days when a ceremonial room was needed, even in the smallest houses. In a city house, or a town house or row house, however you call it, this was usually the room at the front facing the street. It contained formal furniture, upholstered in black horsehair in Victorian times, a small center table, and a piano. Unless someone had to practice on the piano, it was entered only once a week, to dust. It was used only when the parson called, and for funerals, and therefore was not heated except on those occasions, the door being shut and the curtains drawn nearly all the time. In old neighborhoods hereabouts, this customs still survives. Old people still don't use the front room (which is generally what they call it now, although there are still some who call it the parlor) exacept to entertain visitors, even though they live in a house 9 feet wide with only 3 rooms and a kitchen on the ground floor.

Several generations of my family, from Michigan, Ohio, and Indiana, have always used "folks." I was unaware that the term was unusual elsewhere. "Folks" is used to refer to people generally, or to specify parents. In the early years of my marriage, I was caught between being uncomfortable addressing my in-laws by first name (since they had never indicated to me that I should) or addressing them by honorific and surname (which I was sure would offend them as well, as inappropriately formal and distant), and finally settled on addressing them not at all if I could avoid it, or when unavoidable (such as in the greeting in a letter), as "folks."

Parlors definitely remain. In current practice hereabouts, a formal room at the front of the house, usually smallish compared to the great room or family room, is often called the parlor.

And, oh yes, closets! Practically the biggest concern of a homebuyer is how many closets, and how big? What other terms are there for built-in enclosed storage areas?

>And, oh yes, closets! Practically the biggest concern of a homebuyer is how many closets, and how big? What other terms are there for built-in enclosed storage areas?

>Where else would i have my clothes?

As far as I know definitely not in a closet, although I remember them being much discussed in Pride and Prejudice & Sense and Sensibility, so they must have been stored there within living memory.

We have wardrobes, either great big wooden wardrobes or modern/retro fitted wardrobe built into the room. Cupboards are also used for clothes, some are freestanding but some were built as part of the house, especially those strangely shaped cupboards under the stairs Harry Potter's address in book 1 is "The Cupboard Under The Stairs".

In Edinburgh (and probably elsewhere in Scotland for all I know), there are cupboards called presses. The ones that I have seen have doors like the internal doors of the house and are not very deep, maybe about as deep as a chimney breast.

My father talks about the house where he grew up having a parlour in the way described previously, it was dusted but never used. He now considers this to be ridiculous as there were three children in the house and very little space but supposes that it was a matter of "pride" (and very probably prejudice). I can't say that I have ever seen a parlour (or a closet) mentioned in an estate agents, it all sounds a bit "Merchant Ivory" to me!

>Which is getting to the point of my question. Thank you, Jo. Now, would you say "just stay in the car while I pop into the post office"? If not, why not?

The answer is yes, I would.

The reason? I don't think I would choose to say either (or even either note minor pronunciation difference). It would just come out of my mouth, in the same way that most everyday language does. I'd say that it was on a "whim" but it doesn't even reach that level of consciousness!

In with the dishes or in with the food??? And clothes on top or beneath???

We really do need a resident linguist on this board. [sighing resignedly emoticon]

Thank God--finally, posts that talk about the way we live,
and that are focused on LANGUAGE!
Thank you, jmh, of troy, Faldage, Sparteye, and Bob, from the bottom of my heart.
=========================================================
Bob, your description of a parlor matches exactly my understanding of what one is, from "Anne of Green Gables".
My aunt on the farm had a front room, but no closets.
I would not keep my clothes in a cupboard: those are for storing food, if one doesn't have a pantry! Though even that word is going out of use around here: most people say cabinet, as in: "Look in the third cabinet, and you'll see the spices". My friend in Pittsburgh, though,
says cupboard for kitchen cabinet.

In US a wardrobe is a collection of clothes-- (i have a large wardrobe--I own over 20 skirts!) and occationally would be used by grandparents to define an Armoire-- a large free standing piece of furnature to hang clothes in.

cupboards-- is used (but pronounces closer to cub birds)--but mostly cabinet is used (i have new cabinets in the kitchen, ie,) and a free standing kitchen cabinet might be a hooser-- a cabinet with short legs, (6 to 8 inches) topped with a storage space behind 2 doors- on top of that, two deep drawers. Then there would be a work surface-- sometimes covered in tin. above the work surface, some more cabinets-- shallower then the ones below-- Some hoosers had one cabinet above, and to one side, a large built in bin to store flour-- at the bottom of the bin-- a built in sifter-- the sifter would deliver the flour to the work surface. the whole thing would be about 5 foot high-- sometimes a little higher-- but never more than 6 feet high-- and about 3 feet wide, with a depth of about 20 to 24 inches. They could be very ornate-- with fancy glass in the panels on the doors of the upper cabinet.

Old ones are very popular now-- and very expensive!

If you are lucky-- you might have a pantry in your kitchen-- or near it-- Like the cooler WoW mentioned in an other thread, it was a large (floor to ceiling) area-- sometimes big enough to walk in--with shelves for storing dishes, and food items. Country homes often had a root celler too, (my first house had an old Coal room-- from when the house was heated with coal- it had been retro fitted with a gas fired boiler (for steam heat))

Estate house's(mansions) would have a butlers pantry-- a room half way between kitchen and dining room (sometime part of the passageway/hall way between the rooms) that has many shelfs for dishes, serving pieces, silverware.

I heard of a press-- and knew it to mean a kind of closet-- but i never hear the word used here-- (press is a verb-- to iron, and Presser would be a person who has the job of ironing (say at a large commercial laundry).

Under my stair way is a trianglar storage area-- its a closet--of course! I keep my brooms, and mops, and cleaning stuff in a broom closet, too.

>In with the dishes or in with the food??? And clothes on top or beneath???

No, no, no. My food cupboards are in the kitchen, the rest of the cupboards are dotted around the house.

In reply to:

---

maybe about as deep as a chimney breast.

---

I knew exactly what you meant-- but i don't think the space would every be defined that way in US-- Well not in NY for sure!

in many of the older house's in NE, and NY, you'd try to avoid having clothes near the chimney-- since the unlined chimneys would leak creasote-- NYC houses, tended to have coal fires-- less creasote-- but all the walls near chimney of ex's grandparents house had stains.

>In US a wardrobe is a collection of clothes

Here too, it has both meanings. I do not have separate cupboards but I do have a winter wardrobe and a summer wardrobe.

Armoire - You can buy armoirs in antique shops and the kind of places which sell smart French Furniture.

Pantry - I used to have a lovely country cottage with a large pantry - very useful too.

Some of the Victorian houses in Edinburgh have a "maid's room", it is a small room towards the back of the house with a separate staircase, next to the kitchen.

The Victorian/Georgian London houses that I lived in, tended to have a low built-in cupboard, either side of the fireplace, with shelves above, maybe not as grand as the ones in the picture but similar:

http://www.bookcases.co.uk/Alcove_Bookcases/alcove_bookcases.html

I must put in some western Canadian representation here...

Parlour - I don't know that I've ever actually SEEN one, just heard of them in Anne of Green Gables books
Closet - built-in place where you hang your clothes. It can also be used as an exaggeration for something small - like "my office was about the size of a closet!"
Cupboards - in the kitchen, where you keep food/dishes. I realize their "technical" name is probably cabinets but when I ask my husband to get me something, it's "in the top cupboard", never "cabinet".
Pantry - in my house this has degenerated into the closet (!) where we keep the canned goods, extra flour, wine, cat food...you can't actually walk into it (much to my chagrin, it isn't very big) but it serves the same purpose a real pantry would have. I know people who use "pantry" to refer to a large cupboard containing dry goods.

I have a friend out west whose childhood home had a series of "cold rooms" which extended from their basement, where they kept stuff like potatoes, I assume. They were exactly what they sounded like. Cold rooms. Lots of shelves. I've also heard "cold cellar" which I presume to mean the same thing.

In reply to:

---

The Victorian/Georgian London houses that I lived in, tended to have a low built-in cupboard, either side of the fireplace, with shelves above, maybe not as grand as the ones in the picture but similar:

---

similar-- but much less grand-- bookcases and shelves are often found in "prairie style" and "crafts" style houses in mid west and california -- but are not to common in NY--

Oh yes we all have some old Queen Anne (ornate 2 or 3 story wooden free standing) houses and some bungalows-- 1 to 1 and half stories-- 90% of living space on first floor-- steep roofs, with large open porches. some time one or two bedrooms upstairs, but rooms have sloped walls from roof.

My house has a cold room off the basement, which we use to store potatoes and etc. We call it "The Cave." When I was little, I was afraid to go there by myself. It has a dirt floor, and I have always loved the earthy way it smells.

I'd say that it was on a "whim" but it doesn't even reach that level of consciousness!

Just adding my ha'penn'orth...

Yeah, that's about the size of it, Jo. I'd use both whilst and while, probably the latter slightly more. I'd say I've good logical reasons for changing over - e.g. whilst is used when the event concerned lasts a long time - but actually those reasons come after the fact.

Hmmm, then again!

Gather ye rosebuds while ye may feels like it has to be "while". Implication of a limited duration?

The cats looked on whilst the birds sang sweet songs
and
The cats looked on while the birds sang sweet songs
are both equally good; but the latter feels less correct somehow.
And there's an unlimited or indeterminate duration here.

Anybody think there's something in this?

Are you there, Bingley?

I'll take a survey of my co-workers here and my neighbors and find out how "folks" have developed over the last ten years (or so), but not only is there no shortage of the use of the term, it will be posted on the "props" thread as a distinct opposite to "peoples" (in inner-city lingo). Anyone know that difference? (post it there...)

I use "gotten" quite often (probably incorrectly) whilst I use "whilst" just for aural effect (almost never)

Regarding the closet/wardrobe etc. In the USA, yes, the more closets the house has the better it is. But what I saw in Europe this past summer, even the new houses are just rooms and no built in closets----just free standing and movable "kleider schrank" in each sleeping room. You know what? This makes sense as then the room can be rearranged to the style of each owner. And the house can be built faster, less costs, etc because the builder and designer doesn't have to design and build all the %#$@ little extras in each room!!!!!! I used to hate my 60 year old house with only 2 closets and since Europe, I am going European and SIMPLIFY my rooms!!!!!!
jrj

enthusiast

Jo, we would tend to call those things built-in bookcases, or wall units, as opposed to cupboards.

Here also, cupboards are used for storing food in the kitchen. In French we use a "Frenchified" version of pantry to mean the same thing. The government is trying to make us say armoire instead.

We definitely put clothes in a closet (a garderobe/dress minder in French).

musick, I didn't see your post in <props> so I thought I'd respond here.

We often use folks when talking about our parents, as in "ya, my folks still live in the old neighbourhood."

Here in Richmond, Virginia, I've heard "folk" used as a plural form, as in, "We need to be more receptive to the needs of folk." Most instances have been by black City Council members, though I don't think the term refers specifically to black folk(s). It has a nice sound.

So I wonder where the expression Folk music came from?

Appart from the obvious "common person's music" definition that is forthcoming, folk music crosses cultures to the point where virtually the same song has been delevoped around the globe, independently.

It stems originally from "acoustic" musical instruments (which ones aren't "acoustic") and anything that one might make sound with that didn't require much training. Folk music has a very simple rhythm, melody, and harmony, and is/was generally considered from a traditional base (ie. learned from rote from ones ancestors).

The above desciption (both unfortunately and fortunately for different reasons) describe most of todays popular music. ('cept for maybe the independent part)