All right, all you etymologists out there, I need your help with something.
Why is there a W in sword? And why, oh why do we not pronounce it?
I have never questioned it before but tonight my mom, who is very French, asked my brother if he would take his decorative sWord home since she was converting the back room to a den. She pronounced the W. I told her the correct pronunciation but had no explanation as to why it was so.
we've talked about the Welsh w (cf. cwm), haven't we?
Forms: 1–4 sweord, (1 sueord, swurd), 1, 4 (6 Sc.) suord, 1, 6 swyrd, 3–5 (6 Sc.) suerd, 3–6 swerd, (3 swærd, swuerd), 4–6 swerde, sworde, (4 surd, squorde, Ayenb. zuord, 4–5 swerid, swert, 5 sward, swirde, swhirde, squrd, sqwerd, 6 sweard(e, swyrde, swurde, shorde, showrde, swourd, swoord(e, Sc. swrd, sourd), 1, 5– sword. [OE. sweord str. n. = OS., OFris. swerd, MLG. swert, MDu. swaert (Du. zwaard), OHG., MHG. swert (G. schwert), ON. sverð (Sw. svärd, Da. sverd)
the first known written usage is from Beowolf:
Helmas and heard sweord.
tsuwm expounds: we've talked about the Welsh w (cf. cwm), haven't we?
Forms: 1–4 sweord, (1 sueord, swurd), 1, 4 (6 Sc.) suord, 1, 6 swyrd, 3–5 (6 Sc.) suerd, 3–6 swerd, (3 swærd, swuerd), 4–6 swerde, sworde, (4 surd, squorde, Ayenb. zuord, 4–5 swerid, swert, 5 sward, swirde, swhirde, squrd, sqwerd, 6 sweard(e, swyrde, swurde, shorde, showrde, swourd, swoord(e, Sc. swrd, sourd), 1, 5– sword. [OE. sweord str. n. = OS., OFris. swerd, MLG. swert, MDu. swaert (Du. zwaard), OHG., MHG. swert (G. schwert), ON. sverð (Sw. svärd, Da. sverd)
the first known written usage is from Beowolf:
Helmas and heard sweord.
Yes, but why is the "w" silent? Those of us not steeped in the history of "w" in Welsh are awaiting this with bated (and baited) breath ...
That etymology just shows it had a w in it originally. It must have taken part in the w-colouring that means word and lord, ward and hard don't rhyme, whenever that was (1500s?), since the word "sward" exists and has the expected "or" vowel as in "ward", and "sword" didn't collapse into it, so must have become something like "swurd" to rhyme with curd.
Then the w must have been lost after that, but before er and ur and ir became the same, since it still exists in swerve and swirl.
The w in sword is so you won't think it's a flight of mallards.
CK carps: Yes, but why is the "w" silent? Those of us not steeped in the history of "w" in Welsh are
awaiting this with bated (and baited) breath ...
see 'sourd', one of the many variant spellings; 'w' still is a vowel, with approximately the value of 'u', in the Welsh tongue.
tsuwm mutters: CK carps: Yes, but why is the "w" silent? Those of us not steeped in the history of "w" in Welsh are
awaiting this with bated (and baited) breath ...
see 'sourd', one of the many variant spellings; 'w' still is a vowel, with approximately the value of 'u', in the Welsh tongue.
Quite seriously, is there a relationship then between the Welsh cwm and the southern English coomb? The pronunciation can't be that different, and they appear to represent the same type of geographical feature.
The w in sword is so you won't think it's a flight of mallards.Oooh yes! Just think - if you tried to goose someone --- it brings tears to the eyes ( and tears to the clothing)
In reply to:
Quite seriously, is there a relationship then between the Welsh cwm and the southern English coomb? The pronunciation can't be that different, and they appear to represent the same type of geographical feature.
well... here's more than you probably wanted to know:
[In OE., cumb masc. ‘small valley, hollow’ occurs in the charters, in the descriptions of local boundaries in the south of England; also in numerous place-names which still exist, as Batancumb Batcombe, Brancescumb Branscombe, Eastcumb Eastcomb, Sealtcumb Salcombe, Wincelcumb Winchcombe, etc. As a separate word it is not known in ME. literature, but has survived in local use, in which it is quite common in the south of England: see sense b. In literature coomb appears in the second half of the 16th c., probably introduced from local use; a century later, it was still treated by Ray as a local southern word. OE. cumb is usually supposed to be of British origin: modern Welsh has cwm (kum) in the same sense, also in composition in place-names as -cwm, -gwm, and in syntactic combination as Cwm Bochlwyd. A large number of place- names beginning with Cum-, especially frequent in Cumbria, Dumfriesshire, and Strathclyde, as Cumwhitton, Cumdivock, Cumlongan, Cumloden, appear to be thus formed. Welsh cwm represents an earlier cumb, OCeltic *kumbos. The OE. word might however be an obvious application of cumb, coomb1, to a physical feature, though there is no trace of any such application of the cognate German words on the Continent; in any case, if the Saxons and Angles found a British cumb applied to a hollow in the ground, its coincidence with their own word for ‘basin, bowl, deep vessel’ would evidently favour its acceptance and common use. This might further be strengthened, after the Norman Conquest, by the existence of a F. combe ‘petite vallée, pli de terrain, lieu bas entouré de collines’ (Littré, 12th c.), cognate with Pr., Sp. and north It. comba, for which also a Celtic origin has been claimed...] {OED}
well... here's more than you probably wanted to know:
Well, it was more than I was expecting, but it was interesting and informative. Thanks.
OK - I'm game. This is part of the April fools joke. I would imagine someone added a post, and then deleted it - if only to make it seem as if this thread was showing up randomly.
In any case, I do, on purpose, pronounce the "w" in sword.
pronounce the "w" in sword... in order to cut the grass?
...and leave the clippings behind.
OK - I'm game. This is part of the April fools joke. I would imagine someone added a post, and then deleted it - if only to make it seem as if this thread was showing up randomly. In any case, I do, on purpose, pronounce the "w" in sword.
I'm with you musick, unless it's Billy at Gates avenging, it's an April prankster. Would who it is back us so far up, we don't need books for etymology?
This is part of the April fools joke. I would imagine someone added a post, and then deleted it
I agree, sweet musick. BY, how do you plead? (no, I don't mean Bob.)
MAX! Are you saying you brought all these threads forward??
Indeed it was I! It started off as a little April Fool's prank, but then I saw some very interesting old threads, and decided to resurrect them as an antidote to all the YART-talk. I would have got clean way with it except that some of those to whose posts I replied received email notification thereof. To their great credit, not one of those recipients spilled the beans, although one did promise to spill my blood!
The email notification has also tripped up the person who has been trying to pull off the same stunt within the last half-hour or so.
mea culpa, mea culpa, me Max culpa
Post destroyed by virus
BY, my apologies (again). Though this isn't necessarily a
bad thing to have done. You're right, Max, these things are interesting, as evidenced by the new posts added to them. But I think some people may have gotten a bit upset.
But--good heavens--are you saying that, besides getting notified that your post has been replied to, it tells WHO
did the replying?????? Ay di me, I did not know that!!!!
Oh mercy, I have appeared then even more of a fool than I
realized...
David, it was intended in jest, and, if you have a look in Miscellany, you will see that the "damage" done is very temporary. Already most of the old threads that I revived are slipping down the page, and will no doubt be gone completely before too long. The same will happen to all the other traces of my prank, and, since at least one or two of the old threads have generated new responses, I don't consider it to have been a total waste of time.
Yes, it does seem that my prank went somewhat astray, as pranks are wont to do, I guess.
I was careful to stop when the Board's clock rolled over from April 1, so the remaining "scars" should fade quickly.
> I don't consider it to have been a total waste of time.
Absolutely not, max. I had great time, laughing.
And threads will sort themselves out in no time.
Namaste, Avy. I thank you for that. By the way, there was a very interesting article about Banglore's tech parks in the NY Times Web edition a couple of weeks ago
http://www.nytimes.com/2001/03/21/technology/21CALL.html I would be interested to hear what you think. If you have trouble accessing it there, I have clipped it to my idrive account
http://www.idrive.com maxquordlepleen, password Crescent.
Salaam Max,
Thanks for the article yes it was interesting.
Yes lots of people are making a career in these "back office services". A friend gave up his job at a stock broker to take up something called medical transcription. It involves data entry of the audio files of doctor's prescriptions from the US. (Never mind the work is boring as hell - it's money) Even qualified doctors are giving up their practice to make this a career. When the US sleeps India does their cleaning up.
As far as changing names - though it sounds stupid it makes sense. You don't want to lose money because they can't get your name right. And I know from experience how impossible it seems for some occidental people to pronounce oriental names (at all - never mind correctly). Besides the article has picked the easier names. Imagine expecting clients to manage with Mr. Balamurlikrishnayappan
>the city itself is a mess -
Pot holed roads? Those are legendary. Crumbling building? Of course in the older parts of every Indian city you have crumbling buildings. Ramshackle airport? They say we are getting an international airport. The present one is ramshackle.
You see, Bangalore was a sleepy little town where pensioners used to come for their retirement to enjoy the good weather. Suddenly came this tech explosion and the infrastructure did not keep pace. It will take time I guess.
I work in development so I can't comment in a very informed manner on technology. As far as this city goes - I have lived here all my life. It's home.
I won't be on the board for a while. So bye for now. Too long a message anyway ..
I was careful to stop when the Board's clock rolled over from April 1,
(Banging head on desk and laughing like a loon ... not an easy thing to do!)
Oh, Max you really had me going! Congratulations ... best April Fool prank I've experienced in a looooong time.
Serendipitously the threads you chose were really interesting And the change to activity from usual Sunday derth of posts was a delight to me.
(Shaking head and smiling that I was taken in so easily)
Still chuckling
wow
...and after a certain PM from IP (which I haven't answered, yet) I thought it might be him digging deep into a herstory lesson
. I'm with WOW - It was a bit refreshing.
I' sorry but I can't agree. I don't make it here very often, and to find the Board cluttered up with old posts because someone wanted to have a little "fun" was very annoying. Max's behaviour was childish and stupid, and he should be ashamed of himself.
Wowiezowie - I found Max's prank a little distracting, as I couldn't really figure out what was going on and I think I missed some things in a thread or two, but nobody got hurt and I don't think anybody has to be ashamed of anything. I like to spend time on this board because I learn things, I think about things, and I laugh a lot. Now I know what Max was up to, it makes me laugh, it makes me glad that we've got a group here that encourages creativity and even goofiness (meant in the kindest way MaxQ - I am a singularly goofy person much of the time), and it made me think, as I tried to figure out what kind of crazy programming bug would run into a problem simply because of daylight savings time.
In short - Max and the rest of all you crazies: keep it up!
Hyla
As for me, I've made it up with Max; called him friend more than gladly, and had done with curmudgeoning for the foreseeable future. For my wild over-reaction and irate blabbage, I offer my...what it is, what it is ad ad nauseum, one offers.
wink smile straitjacket