Cultural Arrogance? - Wordsmith.org

I've always wondered why EVERY country sees fit to reinterpret the names of every other country's cities (eg Firenze = Florence).

Is this a form of cultural arrogance or simply convenience?

(I laboured under the misassumption that I lived in AustraliA until I travelled through Europe - only then did I find out that the place was actually called AustraliE!!)

stales

Here I go ... this response is based on general ignorance and guesswork.

Two things seem to occur.

One is that there is an historical mispronunciation or difficulty with pronunciation of the name which then translates into an ongoing misspelling of the name. Hence, in English Firenze = Florence, Roma = Rome, Munchen = Munich, Lunnon = London. Yet Berlin = Berlin, Milan = Milan, Pisa = Pisa, and so on.

The other one is that some languages don't happily accept names which don't fit their linguistic approach to life. Examples of this are Australie = Australia in German, Nyujirando = New Zealand in Japanese (although I won't swear to the spelling of the Japanese word).

I've noticed that when a place from parts foreign which doesn't usually crop up makes it on to the news these days (e.g. Grozny and Chechnya), there is no "anglicisation". Instead we have a newsreader valiantly trying to remember how the hell that name was pronounced and either making a bold, valiant attempt at it, or mumbling into his/her beard in the hope that it won't be noticed.

We appear to have learned our lesson here, while stubbornly refusing to correct past errors at the expense of reissuing millions of maps, books and other assorted communications devices.

My $0.02 worth ...

I think people are catching on that it is just not polite to be misspelling the names of other countries.

On my recent Rand McNally atlas, a special effort has been made to print up the maps with the names of the countries as they are actually called. They have anglicized (or spelled phonetically) some names, as some countries do not have the same alphabet.

I can see how it can be disturbing. I am always in awe when I see Canada spelled with a K. Yet I am guilty of having called Australia Australie, when speaking in French because this was the name I was taught.

I always, and I mean always, make sure I spell a customer's name correctly. If I am not sure, I will even call someone in his/her office to confirm. I think it is elementary politeness. Hmmm, I wonder how it would go over if I spelled the names of countries correctly. In the immortal words of Drew Barrimore in Ever After "I shall try."

Strikes me that it is not always the fault of the culturally arrogrant. For example, I grew up calling the city in China "Peking" and then was suddenly informed that it was "Beijing." So who changed the rules?

Father Steve has it right - arrogance is the wrong word. It is simply usage. If my (leaky) memory serves me right, Peking is from the ?Cantonese dialect while Beijing is ?Mandarin. Or it maybe the difference between pinyin and other transliteration systems. Whatever. Someone did tell me and I, with my usual knack, managed to lose the details somewhere.

Anyway, I have learned something from this thread. Drew Barrymore has said something that someone considered immortal. Ay di me!

Drew Barrymore's greatest assets are not verbal, neither of them.

C Kiwi - I think you may've just offended the Milanese - aren't they of the opinion they live in Milano, not Milan?

stales

stales reprimanded: C Kiwi - I think you may've just offended the Milanese - aren't they of the opinion they live in Milano, not Milan?

... as Emanuela has pointed out politely in a private message. Sorry Milano. Keep them Ferraris rolling out ... and shy one my way, please!

Our resident religious noted: Drew Barrymore's greatest assets are not verbal, neither of them.

And they're not that great anyway. Not that I've noticed or anything. I mean, I used to, but I can't for the life of me remember why.

Pssst, Padre, we better watch it. The gutter police from Old Kaintuck will be after us ...

It's generally considered pretentious and rude to interlard your conversation with French words or your writing with Latin quotations. I think it's equally pretentious and rude ("I'm smarter than you; I've travelled more") to use foreign names instead of English names when speaking English.

You don't go on holiday to Deutschland and Elas and Italia, because that's not what they're called in English. We learn place names the same as we learn common names: in our cradle and from those around us. They are part of English like any other words.

Historically, no-one ever decided to change Roma into Rome. Both the English and the Italian names derive from a common ancestor, Roma; just as the modern names Florence and Firenze do; or Paris and Paris: in modern French the final S has become silent, so their pronunciation is now more divergent from the common ancestor than ours. Typically, the names in different languages are the normal historical reflexes of the same original name. No one is any more correct than any other.

Don't confuse pronunciation with spelling. You might write Szczecin or Madrid but would probably pronounce it very differently from the local way. The newsreader "not anglicizing" is probably introducing just as great a distortion as if the odd letter had been changed.

Beijing is the Pinyin transcription and Peking is Wade-Giles; they represent the same name and pronunciation, and are both of the Standard (Beijing) dialect.

NicholasW said We learn place names the same as we learn common names: in our cradle and from those around us. They are part of English like any other words.

I don't think that anyone is arguing against your premise. The question was "Why are they different?", not "Why don't we use the local names?".

Because all languages change all the time. Each undergoes the phonetic changes that all the rest of the language undergoes. And millions and millions of people in every generation learn about Paris and Germany and Athens -- very very few of them ever get to the sophistication of learning that the foreigners at home there call them "Paghee" and Deutschland and Athine. There just isn't the impetus to adopt foreign names for things we already have familiar and simple and long-established English names for.

Drew Barrymore's greatest assets are not verbal, neither of them.

She does have nice eyes, doesn't she? [warning-glower
icon]

nice eyes

As in, "Aye, aye, what a pair!", Jackie?

As in, "Aye, aye, what a pair!", Jackie?

Ignored my warning glower, did ye, S'Ayleur?
Wal, walk the gangplank into the gutter then, mate.

my warning glower

Warning Becomes Eclectic ?

Warning Becomes Eclectic ?

Er--sorry, I think there's something here I'm not getting.

i know, i know--I misspent my youth being sober and industrious-- and going to somber greek plays--
Mourning Become Electra-- which actually is quite wonderful, when you actually learn the history of the time, and what was going on,,,,, otherwise they all seem like very old, very slow versions of a Staleone movie-- everyone is killing everone, or plotting their death-- no bomb or car chases, but the same level of violence--

(and yes, i am reformed-- I party much more now than i ever did in my 20's! )

> very slow versions of a Staleone movie-

I almost choked on my coffee. This CERTAINLY fits my conception of a Stallone movie!!!

Funny, I always thought Greek plays were wordy events. Stallone economises on scriptwriters by not having any dialogue. You are obviously referring to the violence ...

CK (paid-up member of the eternal Greek chorus)

>It's generally considered pretentious and rude to interlard your conversation with French words or your writing with Latin quotations. I think it's equally pretentious and rude ("I'm smarter than you; I've travelled more") to use foreign names instead of English names when speaking English.

Perhaps it is just the people you hang around with. In Montr�al, Qu�bec, it is quite common to intersperse French words into the conversation as both English and French are official languages and both are commonly used. As such I do take exception at your saying it is pretentious and rude.

Also, you should note that board is dedicated to words. It is not called � An English Word A Day.� You will find loads of Latin, Italian, English, French, Hindi, and every other imaginable language being bandied about. What makes this board great is the mix of people from all over the globe. If you find it rude, you will be insulted no end by the people here. I like everybody here and I enjoy them adding a bit of themselves into the posts. I have NOT found anyone pretentious OR rude and I find it very insulting that you would say such a thing!

In response to bel's comments -

I think that to be on this board and enjoy it, you have to have the mental capability to embrace the differences which both separate and join us. Some will have travelled a good deal and others won't have had that opportunity. But every one of us travels in our minds, I believe. Even if we disagree about the meaning and value of the destination sometimes.

However, bel, I do believe that NicholasW was talking in generalities rather than accusing us of arrogance.

I hope!

Apologies to belMarduk for the unintentional offence.

Of course in Quebec or any bilingual area both languages will be used. But that is exceptional as far as most English-speakers go. And of course a board dedicated to language is also an exception, where it is understood the others are likely to have a wide knowledge of language.

But for most English speakers, use of any foreign language is excluding. Most of them don't have the education that bilinguality affords, and no longer get the classical education that allows them to pick up Latin tags. I stick by my contention that, in most contexts, significant use of any foreign language is not at all the done thing. (Of course I, skilled in language, find this frustrating, not being able to use my knowledge.)

significant use of any foreign language is not at all the done thing

NickW, I'm not sure you and Bel are as far apart as you (plural!) think you are. I think 'significant use of a foreign language' is reasonably far removed from pronouncing the capital city of a country as its inhabitants pronounce it. I also find it hard to classify French as a foreign language in Quebec. (Sorry, Bel, I am still too lazy to find the accents and spell Montreal / Quebec correctly, although I would pronounce them the French way...)

There are people who only know the 'English' pronunciation and spelling. There are others who only know the 'native'. And there's a whole chunk of us in the middle who know both and (I'd like to think!) use whichever people will understand.

By the bye, we English speakers can't even agree on how to pronounce or spell our own language. It's hardly surprising we have variations with foreign place names. We're not even that good with 'English' place names, which gives rise to a whole new quiz...

All you non-Brits out there, how many of you can give the correct pronunciation of Hawick? Appletreewick?

Non-Americans (these should be easier, due to a bias in my knowledge!), how about Des Moines? Poughkeepsie? Piscataway?

Non-Australians, Taree? Goulburn?
(As an aside for Antipodeans, I've heard people ask the way to 'Bondy Beach'. Obviously where Alan hangs out now he's been let out...)

I should say I am great stickler for accuracy in names. We should always use the correct names of places: Mumbai not *Bombay, Co^te d'Ivoire not *Ivory Coast, Solomon Islands nor *the Solomon Islands, and so on.

In the case where there exists a distinct English name, that is the correct name when speaking English, e.g. Geneva, which is not the French or Italian or German name. (Hmm... what is the Italian? Ginevra? Or am I mixed up?) There's a correct name for it in French when speaking in French, ditto in German. Each of the national names is a long-standing and authentic word in the respective language. No one is a "corruption" of any other, or a "bad" or "ignorant" or "sloppy" form.

This is not a plea for "traditional" names. Names can be changed. Co^te d'Ivoire used to be Elfenbeinku"ste, Ivory Coast, Costa de Marfil etc. in various languages, then they changed the name in English from Ivory Coast to Co^te d'Ivoire, in Spanish from Costa de Marfil to Co^te d'Ivoire, and so on. (They were sick of not knowing where to sit at international conferences.)

The English name of Mumbai used to be Bombay, but now it's changed. Bombay is now as much an anachronism as Batavia.

The English name of Mumbai used to be Bombay, but now it's changed. Bombay is now as much an anachronism as Batavia.

The entire issue of the name "Bombay" versus "Mumbai" is not even close to as cut and dried as you might imagine. For some of my take on this, check http://wordsmith.org/board/showthreaded.pl?Cat=&Board=words&Number=6845&page=10&view=collapsed&sb=5&vc=1#Post6845.

The question to ask is this: in today's cosmopolitan world where people are not necessarily any longer known by their locality (I have moved city two or three times in my life), who actually 'owns' the name of a place?

[mild rant]

The Brits are the major visitors to Ibiza and provide the lifeblood (monetarily) of the community. Are they arrogant, or just doing the right thing, when they pronounce the name Eye-beetha?

I grew up in Bombay and lived there for 22 years. Why does a fascistic, non-secular, right wing political organisation (the Shiv Sena, for those not familiar with Bombay politics) have the right to tell me that the name I use for 'my' city is wrong? Whose city is it anyway? Nowhere in India except in Bombay was the name 'Mumbai' common. So do the rest of the Indians (a mere 985,000,000 of them) have no say in the name of their richest and most populous city? For what it's worth, my parents still live in Bombay and I know that less than half the population wanted the name changed - it was pushed through by the Shiv Sena on the back of their having a minority government, and thugs who threw stones at establishments that didn't change their shop signs and headed paper.

I admit that there is apparently an 'arrogance' implicit in the fact that we say Florence instead of Firenze or Venice instead of Venezia, but this is not always avoidable. CapK, I think, below spoke of the fact that our names will rarely fit Japanese pronunciation conventions - since they tend not to have compound consonants. It would surely be an act of supreme arrogance on our part to presume to tell the Japanese to change their language to accomodate our names.

Are we really, in the name of political correctness, expected to say Frawns, or La Frawns or La Frawnsay (apologies for inadequate orthography) for France?

Names are conventional, IMO. When a convention has been established it is counter-productive to attempt to overthrow it - if the intention is clear, let it stay. We show sensitivity these days towards the names of places that are new to us, or have been recently created. I am not sure there is a good reason to backtrack through the English language, 'correcting' the spelling and pronunciation of long-standing English conventions.

[/mild rant]

cheer

the sunshine warrior

We show sensitivity these days towards the names of places that are new to us, or have been recently created. I am not sure there is a good reason to backtrack through the English language, 'correcting' the spelling and pronunciation of long-standing English conventions.

In 'sensitivity' to you, sweet shanks, I am refraining from using that 4-letter word that starts with A. Instead:
applause, applause! This is exactly the way I feel about
the Methodists going back through so many long-ago
written hymns and replacing 'man' or 'men' with 'people', or some such. It offends my sensibilities.

The Brits are the major visitors to Ibiza and provide the lifeblood (monetarily) of the community. Are they arrogant, or just doing the right thing, when they pronounce the name Eye-beetha?
Ignorant, in this case. Ibiza has no distinct English name so it should be [i"vi:T@] (i.e. ee-VEE-tha), the closest English sounds to the Spanish. (Actually it shouldn't, it should be Eivissa, the Catalan name, the official name in Spain.)

I grew up in Bombay and lived there for 22 years. Why does a fascistic, non-secular, right wing political organisation (the Shiv Sena, for those not familiar with Bombay politics) have the right to tell me that the name I use for 'my' city is wrong? Whose city is it anyway? Nowhere in India except in Bombay was the name 'Mumbai' common. So do the rest of the Indians (a mere 985,000,000 of them) have no say in the name of their richest and most populous city?

Good point, in this case, though I'll continue to use Shiv Sena's imposition. I also say and use Myanmar, which is the de facto official name, but understand how controversial it is. When Aung San Suu Kyi takes over she can change it back to Burma if she likes and I'll then say that again.

BTW I'm very impressed that on my plucking Mumbai out of thin air there is already a discussion of it from several months back. Your first posting to it was very informative too: just the sort of thing I like to know.

Name Changes

Quite possible Myanmar may revert to Burma, and Yangon to Rangoon. We have precedent in Leningrad going back to St. Petersburg, Titograd going back to Podgorica, and no doubt plenty of others. One of the rules of place names is that the powers-that-be-at-the-moment can and may determine what names are to be official.

Jackie states: This is exactly the way I feel about the Methodists going back through so many long-ago written hymns and replacing 'man' or 'men' with 'people', or some such. It offends my sensibilities.

Man is an old English word meaning human being. Person is an old Etruscan word meaning mask. People is also an old Etruscan word but the AHD doesn't say what it meant.

In the Ithaca Community Chorus one year we sang a bunch of Christmas carols, carefully removing all the "sexist" references (we couldn't figure out what to do with the "merry gentlemen" so we left that one out) and then gayly went on to sing a song about a little woperson who sat in the window drinking her rose petal tea while patiently waiting for her MAN to come home from the sea.

Use of 'English' place names all falls apart when you come to actually visit the places. As a railway enthusiast travelling around Europe I quickly learned that I wasn't going to get very far looking for trains to Cologne!

But what to do in Belgium? Try getting a train to Antwerp from a Walloon area! Or what about a train to Lille in France from somewhere where the signs are in Flemish.

> I admit that there is apparently an 'arrogance' implicit in the fact that we say Florence instead of Firenze or Venice instead of Venezia

I have always considered an honor for a city having its name translated. Only countries and very important cities deserve this privilege. We, Spaniards, say �Londres�, �Nueva York� or �Mosc�� but have no Spanish words for smaller cities on those countries.
Lots of cities in Spain are lately changing their official names to Catalonian, Basque or Galician names and we are living the, absurd IMO, debate about if everybody else should employ, as some nationalists insist, the new names instead of the older ones.
I have never used Beijing instead or Peking and I will continue using Bombay, I consider that a language shouldn�t be changed by political decisions.

Juan Maria.

Would you call it cultural arrogance or just cultural stupidity if a town uses a foreign city name but mispronounces it? There's a suburb of Cincinnati named Versailles and the "es" is pronounced at the end, far from the real French pronounciation. Toledo is also mispronounced from is Spanish namesake. In the US it's "Tol-ee-do", but in Spain, as far as I've heard, it's "Tol-eh-do".

JazzOctopus asked There's a suburb of Cincinnati named Versailles and the "es" is pronounced at the end, far from the real French pronounciation. Toledo is also mispronounced from is Spanish namesake. In the US it's "Tol-ee-do", but in Spain, as far as I've heard, it's "Tol-eh-do".

If I may offer my sen on the matter, I think that the two examples you give are situaations in which it is entirely appropriate to pronounce the names differently. Versailles, Cincinnati is not Versailees, France, and Toledo, Ohio is not Toledo, Spain, so pronouncing the names ina different manner serves to make that distinction clear. Here in New Zealand there is a topographical feature known as the Bombay Hills, north of which there is no civilised society. Despite the large, and rapidly growing, Indian population on both sides of those hills, no one has suggested renaming them "The Mumbai Hills"

And in NY, you can go to Houston (House ton ) street-- but in texas, the is a city called Houston (hew ston)-- i would say the word differently depending on where it was--

but if Houston texas, desided to label a souther quadrant of the city, where all the arty folk have set up shop, Soho, ,just like in NY-- I would call it Soho (just like the London area that NY stole the name from...)

in NY, SOHO, is south of Houston...

Max blandly stated: Here in New Zealand there is a topographical feature known as the Bombay Hills, north of which there is no civilised society. Despite the large, and rapidly growing, Indian population on both sides of those hills, no one has suggested renaming them "The Mumbai Hills"

1. For those of you not in on the joke, the city of Auckland is immediately north of the Bombay Hills and contains approximately one-third of the population; about 1.3 million people. Aside from that, I agree with Max.

2. At the moment, most Aucklanders are only vaguely aware that the Bombay Hills exist. Their maps all have "Here there be dragons" lettered in old English script five miles south of Drury, the southern-most suburb. Renaming the Bombay Hills to the Mumbai Hills might have the adverse effect of reminding them that there is life south of those same hills .... [cynical

]

Juanmaria wrote Lots of cities in Spain are lately changing their official names to Catalonian, Basque or Galician names

Ooh, but they make me so excited, and as soon as I find them I begin (quivering and) memorizing A Coru�a, Lleida, Eivissa, and so on: and as a lover of Basque I have always used Donostia, Bilbo, Gasteiz, Gipuzkoa and the rest.

Even better would be if Canada and the USA started doing this (slurp slaver drool): then we'd all have to memorize Ktaqamk (Newfoundland), Epekwitk (Prince Edward I.), and Dzidzalal'ich (Seattle). I don't think I could handle so much fun all at once.

I posted in another thread recently a brief synopsis of abortive attempts in New Zealand to revert to Maori placenames, even where these were rarely, if ever, used prior to the arrival of the Europeans.

A prime (and fairly visible) example was Taranaki (a large, singular volcanic cone in the westernmost area of the North Island). It started as Taranaki, was renamed Mt Egmont, reverted to Taranaki, but is, I notice, again being called Mt Egmont.

Official place name reversion is one thing; public acceptance of the status of the old (new) names is another entirely.

Versailles and Toledo

And then there's Cairo, Illinois, which the locals pronounce in syrupy fashion "Karo". You could amass quite a collection of these alternative pronunciation places.

One of my favorites is the name Bourgeois (name of a street, a bookstore, and a family name in the area) in Cincinnati - which is pronounce burr-joyce.

directly to the north of Harpers Ferry, WV there's the town of Bolivar, named after the SA general, but pronounced BAHL -i-ver.

A hundred miles or so south of BAHL-i-ver, WV, is Buena Vista, VA, pronounced, charmingly, BYOO-na VEE-sta.

In reply to:
Man is an old English word meaning human being. Person is an old Etruscan word meaning mask. People is also an old Etruscan word but the AHD doesn't say what it meant.

Person "is" an old Etruscan word meaning mask? My dictionary has the following: "[L. persona, a player's mask, perh. from Etruscan phersu, masked figures." It seems to me that person "is" an English word, one whose origin can be traced back to Etruscan.

No one complains: It seems to me that person "is" an English word, one whose origin can be traced back to Etruscan.

In Wellington, we have a Marjoribanks Street, pronounced "Mah-jory-banks". Whoa!

> Would you call it cultural arrogance or just cultural stupidity if a town uses a foreign city name but mispronounces it?

Well, once this town is your town its name it�s no longer �a foreign city name� but your city name so, I think, you are entitled to pronounce it as you wish.
There are people, as is my case, who cannot pronounce some foreign syllables properly or have to make a considerable effort for doing it. I have always thought that if you cannot pronounce a foreign word in an acceptable way you had better pronouncing it as if it was written in your native language. It surely will be better than inventing a new pronunciation.
I don�t know who started it, but a couple of years ago almost everybody in my city started pronouncing CD-ROM as ceh deh room. It was too much for me, I think that the �o� in ROM is one of the few vocals that English an Spanish pronounce similarly and some snob made this room pronunciation up and everybody found it fashionable. I think I had never imposed a way of pronouncing anything in my company before but, after getting fed-up with hearing it, I banned this way of pronouncing this word.
Maybe I�ve got a dictator inside me struggling to get out.

Juan Maria.

No-one should be expected to pronounce foreign names correctly. It is of course odd to hear someone mangle a French name: you'd think everyone would have picked up enough French to know the basics.

If you do know how to pronounce a language, I don't think it's necessary to drop into an exact foreign accent: just use the closest equivalent sounds in your own language, so that the name flows smoothly with the rest of the sentence.

Morjoribanks
I have been given to understand that in the UK, this is pronounced Marchbanks, like Cholmondly is pronounced Chumly.

juanmaria contribuye: almost everybody in my city started pronouncing CD-ROM as ceh deh room.

Do you mean they pronounce room como rom en (por ejemplo) rompope. En ingl�s pronunciamos room como rum en rumiar.

In Spanglish, as spoken widely in the US Southwest and many large cities such as Mayami, FL and Nueva York, many words are taken directly from English with the English spelling retained and pronounced as in English but with Spanish endings, e.g., emailear, to e-mail. The pronunciation is as if it were spelled imelear

BYB pondered: I have been given to understand that in the UK, this is pronounced Marchbanks, like Cholmondly is pronounced Chumly.

Precisely. I got caught out a couple of times when I first came to Wellington, because I had been taught that it was pronounced "marshbanks". Only no one in Wellington had ever heard of it. When I wrote it down, hey presto! they all knew where I was talking about.

CapKiwi chimed in with In Wellington, we have a Marjoribanks Street, pronounced "Mah-jory-banks". Whoa!

I don't suppose there's any chance that the very entertaining Mongolian barbecue restaurant is still alive and well in Marjoribanks Street? At least Marjoribanks Street sounds as it looks to us non-rhotic Kiwis. My sister lived for several years in Beauchamp St, Karori, and it was only just before she moved that I learned that 1) it was named for Katherine Mansfield's Daddy, and b) it should be said Beecham.

Max asks: I don't suppose there's any chance that the very entertaining Mongolian barbecue restaurant is still alive and well in Marjoribanks Street?

Well, if the pile of skulls, the blood running down the gutter, the small, shaggy ponies tied up everywhere, pointy, sharp objects flying about and yelling and screaming are anything to go by, yes.

But, of course, it could be just another normal Friday night in Courtenay Place ...

>Do you mean they pronounce room como rom en (por ejemplo) rompope. En ingl�s pronunciamos room como rum en rumiar.

--Start Spanish--:
La pronunciaci�n que se puso de moda era: ce-de-rum, no ci-di-rom imitando al Ingles o ce-de-rom como se debe decir en Espa�ol.
--End spanish--
It's very common among people in computing using a sort of Spanglish-of-the-trade, "deletear", "renamear", "shutdownear", and my favorite "atachar" or "atachamiento". I can't find a better word for the files attached on email.

Juan Maria.

I do remember watching a series of TV programmes called The Silk Road in Singapore about 15 years ago. It was a travelogue retracing the route of the Silk Road from China to Constantinople (Konstantinopolis?), later to be called, by English speakers at any rate, Istanbul (I freely admit I do not know how close to the Turkish name that is). Any way, I believe the programmes were actually made in Japanese and then dubbed into English in Singapore. In the first few programmes, which dealt with the Chinese end of the road, all the Chinese place names were given correct Chinese pronunciations -- with tones! With 5 or 6 names to a sentence all semblance to English intonation was lost. But if you're going to insist on Co^te d'Ivoire rather than Ivory Coast why not insist on the correct tonal pronunciation for Beijing?

Bingley

Morjoribanks is pronounced Marchbanks, like Cholmondly is pronounced Chumly.
I understand that and the fact Beauchamp is Beecham but howthehell do you get SinGin out of St. John?
wow

yeah... or Throat-warbler Mangrove from Raymond Luxury-Yacht?

Poster: tsuwm
Subject: Re: Odd pronunciations

yeah... or Throat-warbler Mangrove from Raymond Luxury-Yacht?
Dear Tsuwm,
Is this an answer to my St.John (SinGin) query. If so I am clueless ... or incredibly uninformed

wow

Wow,

Chomondeley (pronounced chumly) has French origins. No firm idea about either St John or Marjoribanks. I suspect a studied upper class English drawl has most to do with it, since both are "upper class" names. I went to school with a St John from England and, boy, did he catch hell from all us self-righteous little Kiwis for mispronouncing his own name as "SinJin"!

I have an acquaintance who insists on "correcting" people on their pronunciations of foreign place names. Especially annoying is his insistence on interjecting "Pra-HA" when some poor schmuck mentions Prague. Just embarrassing...

There is a Bavarian community in Minnestora called New Prague. I wonder how your friend would react hearing the natives insist: "The first thing you need to know about New Prague is that it's pronounced "New PRAY-G", not "New PRAHG"." (no one knows why)

In reply to:
Poster: tsuwm
Subject: Re: Odd pronunciations

yeah... or Throat-warbler Mangrove from Raymond Luxury-Yacht?
Dear Tsuwm,
Is this an answer to my St.John (SinGin) query. If so I am clueless ... or incredibly uninformed

I was piling on, mom. while the Brits are well-known for extra letters in their orthography, when it comes to orthoepy, they have a tendency to lose track of whole bunches of them. Monty Python was known to (also) ridicule this trait, the most risible example being the one I chose above.

another aside: why do you suppose that orthoepy has two (2) accepted pronunciations?

From Capital Kiwi : St John from England and, boy, did he catch hell from all us self-righteous little Kiwis for mispronouncing his own name as "SinJin"!

Your delicacy of feeling noted, however I like SinGin as it has a more edgy feel to it, slightly dangerous and intriguing. Something every young boy aspires to n'est ce pas?

wow

No, it wasn't the softened "g" that got him hell. In fact, I think "j" is more correct that "g", as the "sin" and the "jin" are run together.

In fact, it was our attitude of "why not [Saynt Jon], you precious little bastard? 'Cos that's how it's bloody-well spelled!"

Don't start thinking that at 13 or 14 we were intellectual little girlie-swots, because it weren't true!

But if you're going to insist on Co^te d'Ivoire rather than Ivory Coast why not insist on the correct tonal pronunciation for Beijing?

Well exactly. Syllabic tone is unnatural in English so shouldn't be used when speaking English. One good principle is: if possible (which includes "if you know them") use the closest comfortable English sounds to the foreign sounds. No-one should be expected to know or reproduce Chinese tones.

The case of Co^te d'Ivoire is entirely different. This used to be called Ivory Coast in English, then the English name of the country was changed by explicit government decree, and the new name has accordingly been taken up by official bodies such as the UN. What better or clearer reason could there be for you to use the new name of something?

In reply to:
The case of Co^te d'Ivoire is entirely different. This used to be called Ivory Coast in English, then the English name of the country was changed by explicit government decree, and the new name has accordingly been taken up by official bodies such as the UN. What better or clearer reason could there be for you to use the new name of something?

You had best be careful, Nicholas!From now on, should you have any occasion to mention the name of New Zealand's highest peak, you had jolly well better use its official, government sanctioned, leally recognised name - Aoraki/Mt. Cook. The other NZ peak that Capital Kiwi mentioned is also officially bilingually labelled - Taranaki/Mt. Egmont. Any failure on your part to use these politically imposed designations will be punishable by accusations of inconsistency, accusations fired by me from Aotearoa/New Zealand

{Mild and mendacious emoticon] But, Max, what if he calls it "Aorangi"? Just wondering ...

CapK asked impishly But, Max, what if he calls it "Aorangi"? Just wondering ...

Not good enough. NicholasW has clearly stated his view that one must always use the official, legal designations, so using Nth Island Maori would be unacceptable - Aoraki/Mt. Cook or nothing!

[Satisfaction at having hooked one's fish emoticon] Oh!

In reply to:
[Satisfaction at having hooked one's fish emoticon]

Shona has his own emoticon? And you hooked it?

Bingley

Aoraki/Mt Cook

But I always do leap on new names I learn. You can accuse me of ignorance rather than inconsistency if I get them wrong. It's a great burden on the memory, I can tell you. The Grampians in Victoria are now Gariwerd, and Mt Kosciusko is now Mt Kosciuszko. Durban is now eThekwini and Pretoria is Tshwane -- or at least these are the municipalities. The Republic of Kyrgyzstan became the Kyrgyz Republic in May 1993. The constitution of Maldives says the official name is Republic of Maldives but goes on and explicitly refers to it as the Maldives and as State of the Maldives. Saint Lucia announced that it would always use the spelling Saint, not St, but the stamps continue to use St. I've got notebooks full of this stuff!

What's written on Aotearoa stamps these days?

NicholasW begs: What's written on Aotearoa stamps these days?

"New Zealand". Whadelse?

Shona has his own emoticon? And you hooked it?, line and sinker.

Then I can say Mt Cook by itself!

[triumphant Daffy Duck finger raised in air emoticon]

>The Brits are the major visitors to Ibiza and provide the lifeblood (monetarily) of the community. Are they arrogant, or just doing the right thing, when they pronounce the name Eye-beetha?

We must have a thing about Spanish Islands. I heard a travel company marketing person being grilled on the radio recently. The company had two offshoots, each taking visitors to a neighbour of Ibiza. In one brochure, the name Majorca was used. In the other, the name Mallorca was used. Both sets of visitors were being offered holidays on the same island - guess which holidays were more expensive?

Durban is now eThekwini and Pretoria is Tshwane -- or at least these are the municipalities

Oh my god is that true? It's so hard to keep up with names in SA these days, I must be falling behind.

Actually I'm sure it is just the municipality. Or what is these days rather portentously called "the Greater Metropole of ...) or some such bureaucratise. Since each of these merged several municipalities (with a mix of Eurocentric and Afrocentric names) I suppose they had a pretty tricky naming problem; someone was bound to be offended.

I notice a lot of name changes around the world have been sparked by political events, some shamefully partisan and others more defensible (if I may be allowed to be so judgmental). By and large I must say I've been quite impressed at how successful we've been in adapting to to the new, more PC, names in SA. (Nobody regrets the end of the "Hendrik Verwoerd Dam". Well, almost nobody.)

Now I wish we could get rid of all the street names that honour obscure, minor politicians whose claim to fame, or source of influence, nobody can recall any longer. It's embarrassing to live in such a street and hell to get foreigners to spell them even vaguely correctly. I think there should be a rule about naming anything after anyone who hasn't been dead for 10 years. [emoticon for people who can't think up clever emoticons]

NicholasW exultantly declared Then I can say Mt Cook by itself!

[triumphant Daffy Duck finger raised in air emoticon]

Nope, sorry, there ain't so such place no more.

If you do find a postage stamp with that particluarly fragile lump of rock on it, said rock will be given its official legal designation - Aoraki/Mt. Cook. The renaming was a major part of a compensation deal reached between the Crown and Ngai Tahu, the Maori iwi whose traditional lands include over 80% of the South Island and whose chairman has the wonderfully traditional Maori surname of O'Regan. As much fun as this little stirring excercise has been, Nicholas, I have to confess that I feel as you do on this matter. I'm a Yangon, Myanmar sort of guy myself. I love the challenge of trying to get it right, even though, as an amateur, I almost certainly mutilate them in a way that adepts such as yourself would cringe at. At least I drive through Paraparaumu on my to Wellington, not Paraparam. That's gotta be worth summat, eh, CapK?

MaxQ supplies: its official legal designation - Aoraki/Mt. Cook

Do you pronounce the /? Is it slash, virgule or what?

Faldage asked Do you pronounce the /? Is it slash, virgule or what?

Sorry

That's how it's written. It's just said like one word AorakiMt.Cook. Of course, my posts were largely in jest. The only times I've ever heard it referred to as AorakiMt.Cook were on TV news bulletins. If one wishes to use only part of the name, it is inreasingly politic to use the lovely Aoraki (sorry, James)

Whereas, I am an unreformed and unashamed user of the place names I grew up with, regardless of the official blessings bestowed on what I conceive to be mere tokenism.

I have no objections to people calling the mountain either Mt Cook or Aoraki, or even Aorangi. I know what they mean and I'm happy for them to use any of the terms, but to me and to most of the people I associate with, it's still Mt Cook. No matter how much shorter it gets (yes, I spotted that one, Max).

I was in Parapram the day before yesterday. It's spelled "Paraparaumu", but everyone I know pronounces it "Parapram". Same as Piecock/Paekakariki.

It's not insulting, it's not intended to be. It's just the difference between the way two languages, coexisting in a confined space, have grown to accommodate each other. I think it was NickW who expressed it well - it sounds pretentious for an English speaker not of Italian origin to say "Firenze" rather than "Florence". I feel the same way about the thirty or forty places in New Zealand where the Maori name has not been supplanted, it has merely been anglicised.

FWIW

CapK asserted Whereas, I am an unreformed and unashamed user of the place names I grew up with, regardless of the official blessings bestowed on what I conceive to be mere tokenism.

I, on the other hand, am proudly inconsistent on this issue. As a general rule, I strive to pronounce the Maori names � la mode des tangata whenua, but laziness, and a desire to avoid sounding pretentious, often leads to Toke-a-rower, Row-ta-rua, and, yes, even Parapram when the mood siezes me. I guess that my improved dilgence has a lot to do with my spending a great deal of time in the company of fluent speakers of te Reo, including some for whom it is their first language. In that sort of company the anglicisations seem more awkward than the Maori pronunciations, at least to this porangi pakepakeha.

It wasn't intended to be a criticism Max - each to their own, I say. But I do loathe the PC police - generally boot-polish Maoris like our Winnie - who run with the hares and hunt with the hounds, probably without realising they're doing it.

It's difficult to be racially prejudiced in New Zealand - it generally means you wind up "hating" close relatives. You've said, for instance, that your wife is tangata whenua. So is my brother-out-law.

In reply to:
It wasn't intended to be a criticism Max - each to their own, I say. But I do loathe the PC police - generally boot-polish Maoris like our Winnie - who run with the hares and hunt with the hounds, probably without realising they're doing it.

No criticism was taken - my overwheening vanity can't conceive of such a possibility. I agree entirely about the PC police. For similar reasons, Bob Jones has written that he refuses to call Stephen O'Regan by his adopted name. Whatever boils your crawfish, and for me, I just like the way many Maori names sound.