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Posted By: Jackie Yet another et (ymology) - 09/25/03 02:12 AM
I seem to recall that this question has been brought up here before; but a Search revealed approx. 1300 entries for the word England, so...
How did that country get its name?

Posted By: sjmaxq Re: Yet another et (ymology) - 09/25/03 02:26 AM
This is nothing more than a swag from an ses, but I'd say it was the Land of the Angles, Angle-Land.

Posted By: dxb Re: Yet another et (ymology) - 09/25/03 07:16 AM
Comes from Angul, a district in Schleswig, North Germany. Some of the local tribe moved to, and settled in, eastern parts of England - what is now called East Anglia.

There is a tale that I have heard that when the Romans first came to Britain they saw these fair haired people and thought they looked liked like angels which gave rise to the name; but that sounds to me like a Victorian invention or maybe William Blake (it's a bit Jerusalem-ish).

Posted By: sjmaxq Re: Yet another et (ymology) - 09/25/03 07:58 AM
Thanks for supporting my swag, dxb.

Posted By: Faldage Re: Yet another et (ymology) - 09/25/03 12:54 PM
when the Romans first came to Britain they saw these fair haired people

Close, but no seegar. The story was about some Pope who, upon receiving moral support or some such things said, of the Angles, "Not Angles, but angels." Works perfectly good in Latin, too, maybe even better than in English. I could look it up if someone who knows more doesn't beat me to it.

Otherwise, you've got it right, dxb.


Edit:

It was Pope Gregory, and it was in response to seeing some Angles for sale in a slave market. According to this site http://sspx.ca/Angelus/2000_December/St_Augustine_of_Canterbury.htm he wasn't Pope yet. The Latin is : Non Angli, sed angeli. I'm assuming the G was still hard in angeli.
Posted By: WhitmanO'Neill Re: Yet another et (ymology) - 09/25/03 02:25 PM
And while we're at it, why is an English Muffin English?

Posted By: dxb Re: Yet another et (ymology) - 09/25/03 02:39 PM
Faldage - Absolutely. The moment I started to read your post it all came back to me, even the Latin tag. I still think the story is most likely a nice invention! Interesting, as you point out, that the pun suggests that the 'g' was hard in angeli.

Thanks for the correction. I checked back from the link and found that the book containing it was published in 1985. Well ... it's a pretty enough tale.




Posted By: dxb Re: Yet another et (ymology) - 09/25/03 02:50 PM
An English muffin, of the kind you buy in the States, is not English. Muffins that are sold in England as "muffins" are more savoury in character and might be eaten as an alternative to crumpets - pause ... I've never had a crumpet in the US of A ... do you have such things? (no crude comments, thank you, keep your minds on food).

The irony is that you can now buy English muffins in the UK that are actually American - just spongey cakes in a paper "bun case". Intended as a single portion but really far too big to be healthy as such.

Think I should go and hide now because I'm sure lots of folk will disagree with almost everything I've said!

Posted By: of troy Re: Yet another et (ymology) - 09/25/03 04:59 PM
englihs muffins,(in US) are flat disks, made from a yeasty batter, so the interior texture is very open --large yeasty holes, not the fine dough/crumb to found in bread.

The dough (when home made) is cut with a circle cutter (a biscut cutter in US term), and placed on a hot griddle (which in US is a flat pan, often made of cast iron) which was heated on the stove top, and the muffins are turned over, and the other side is cooked in the pan too. this give the 'muffins' flat tops and bottoms; commercial muffins are baked.

in size, the are just about 3 inches (or about the size of a cured pork loin (US canadian bacon)) the are savory (ie, not sweetened)

to serve, they are split- exposing the open texture of the dough, toasted and then served with butter and/or jam, or cream cheese. They also serve a base for such dishes as 'egg benidict'(aka 'heart attack on a plate"=poached eggs served on a buttered muffin, with canadian bacon and hollandaise sause!)

they are more like crumpets than anything else i can think of, (crumpets are cooks first on a stove top, and finished in an oven, right? )

Muffins sold (baked)in a paper bun case (in US Cupcake papers!) are usually sweet, and here too, they have become oversized.

Posted By: Bingley Non angli sed angeli - 09/26/03 01:38 AM
It's based on a story from Bede's Ecclesiastical History of the English People. It comes from his obituary notice of Gregory the Great:

Nor is the account of St. Gregory, which has been handed down to us by the tradition of our ancestors, to be passed by in silence, in relation to his motives for taking such interest in the salvation of our nation. It is reported, that some merchants, having just arrived at Rome on a certain day, exposed many things for sale in the marketplace, and abundance of people resorted thither to buy: Gregory himself went with the rest, and, among other things, some boys were set to sale, their bodies white, their countenances beautiful, and their hair very fine. Having viewed them, he asked, as is said, from what country or nation they were brought? and was told, from the island of Britain, whose inhabitants were of such personal appearance. He again inquired whether those islanders were Christians, or still involved in the errors of paganism? and was informed that they were pagans. Then fetching a deep sigh from the bottom of his heart, "Alas! what pity," said he, "that the author of darkness is possessed of men of such fair countenances; and that being remarkable for such graceful aspects, their minds should be void of inward grace." He therefore again asked, what was the name of that nation? and was answered, that they were called Angles. "Right," said he, for they have an Angelic face, and it becomes such to be co-heirs with the Angels in heaven. What is the name," proceeded he, "of the province from which they are brought?" It was replied, that the natives of that province were called Deiri. "Truly are they De ira," said he, "withdrawn from wrath, and called to the mercy of Christ. How is the king of that province called?" They told him his name was Ælla: and he, alluding to the name said, "Hallelujah, the praise of God the Creator must be sung in those parts."

http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/basis/bede-book2.html

Gregory died in 605. Bede was writing 120-130 years later. It was in this very work that Bede popularised the use of BC and AD for dating purposes.

Bingley
Posted By: Jackie Re: Non angli sed angeli - 09/26/03 01:45 AM
abundance of people resorted thither to buy How lovely that reads. I wonder why there wasn't an 'an' in front of abundance?

Posted By: dxb Re: Non angli sed angeli - 09/26/03 06:39 AM
Thanks Bingley. My disbelief is weakening a little. Evidently the tale has been around long enough for it to have earned some credibility even if it is apocryphal!

And Kai Lung finished his tale, smiled at the assemblage, and, while modestly drawing their attention to his empty hat, drew the moral thuswise: "So, if desirable results are believed over many generations of learned scholars to have been brought about by a shining ideal does that not become a greater truth than that the ugly greed present in so many low born persons might on occasion produce benefits to many?" ~ with apologies to Ernest Bramah

Posted By: dxb Re: Yet another et (ymology) - 09/26/03 07:08 AM
englihs muffins,(in US) are flat disks, made from a yeasty batter, so the interior texture is very open --large yeasty holes, not the fine dough/crumb to found in bread. ~ of troy

Yep! That's a proper muffin you describe and you can buy them here like that. I am puzzled how the cakes sold as English muffins ever came to be known as that. They now come in a variety of flavours with chocolate chip and blueberry probably the most popular. They resemble the little cakes (about 2"/50mm diameter) that are made and sold here in paper cases, often with a splash of icing on the top, and eaten at children's tea time - but we have never called those muffins and their texture is not so soft as the English muffin cake.

Crumpets and muffins are among the few good things about winter.


Posted By: Faldage Re: Non angli sed angeli - 09/26/03 10:34 AM
And Kai Lung finished his tale…

Good old Kai Lung. Always ready with a quick and pithy quip.

Posted By: vanguard Re: The muffin issue - 09/29/03 03:59 PM
dxb - I think there are two types of muffins in the US, and that's where some confusion is arising. We do have the English muffin, as described by Helen. Flat, lots of nooks and crannies for the butter, not sweet. These are always referred to as English muffins. The other sort of muffins are just called muffins, and this refers to the sweet, cake-like confections that are usually sold in a paper holder (we call them cupcake papers as Helen mentioned). They really are too big, and far too much fat and calories to be considered healthy.

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